Riley Wooten's Voodoo v. Goldberg kit Voodoo

[Mel Gray]

Hi All,

Didn't want to pirate Terry Caron's Zilch thread but was curious about Phil C's comments I saw there about Riley Wooten's Voodoo design.  I have heard comments in the past from others that some differences existed in the Voodoo as Riley and the Lubbock gang built them and the Goldberg kit.  Could you combat guys expand a bit on the differences?  Like a lot of you, I built quite a few of these from Goldberg kits when I was a teen in the early 60's.  I don't have any kit plans around but looking at the magazine plans from MAN (hope that's right) I found online sure looks like the airplanes I put together.  Of course, that WAS a long time ago and the old memory likely is not too reliable here.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Mel Gray

[Russell Shaffer]

Monument???  As in just North of the Springs?  My kids are in Colorado Springs and Parker.  We do visit them.

[Steve Helmick]

I know that eventually, the Voodoo was built with longer tailbooms by a lot of guys (as was the Sneaker). I can't say if Riley ever did that or not, but quite possible that somebody in his group did. I'd bet that the balsa was a lot better than the CG kits....which I don't think were terrible. But I never built a Voodoo, either.

Oddly enough, when Walter Umland was going to kit the Sneaker, I asked if he was going to kit the short or long boom version. He asked Riley if the long boom was ever kitted, to which Riley said it was NOT kitted by Flite Line (his company). So, I had to pull my Flite Line kit down off the shelf and take pictures of it. It had a sticker on the kit that said it was the new and improved long boom version, and the booms were like 2" longer.  Anyway, I think WU kitted it so you could build it either way. And I have since sold that kit for a $3 profit.  Steve

[bob whitney]

  the booms were lengthend as the engines got heavier. i think Riley had quit flying by then

[Andre Ming]

Bob is correct: The booms began to get longer in the early 70s, probably from Howard Rush's "Nemisis 2" influence. 

Thus, some of the older planes were refitted with longer booms to extract more life (or sales, in the case of CG) out of older designs and too look "cooler" and more "modern".

Just personal preferences, but I prefer to build my vintage combat planes using the original dimensions if possible/known, as well as try to use a vintage type engine.  I entertain myself with the idea that my vintage combat airplanes are "flying history".

[BillLee]

"Early 70's"

The long booms were a "secret" in the mid-60's, along with a planked leading edge. the combination gave a far better model. Many built back in my combat days from the double Voodoo kits.

[Andre Ming]

Hi Bill:

Wasn't talking about top secret development going on among serious combat junkies in the late 60s.  I was mainly talking about the kitted Voodoo as well as mainstream design trends. The long boom Voodoo kit version didn't appear until the early 70s.  Also, the long booms really caught on as a design trend by the 1970.  Mono-booms were starting to get popular in the early 70s, too.  The 70s is when I lost interest in combat trends.  I just didn't care for the way it was evolving.  By the mid-70s, I enjoyed the older stuff more than the look-alike foamie things that were gaining in popularity. So, I became a fast-combat enthusiast drop-out.

However, I did fly some foamies in speed limit combat during the early-mid 90s for much of the same reasons they were taking over in fast combat.  Also did some 1/2 A combat back when the TeeDee was the ONLY engine to use. My little 1/2 A balsa planes weighed about 4 - 4 1/2 oz sans fuel and were quite competitive among the contest flyers I flew with.  TeeDee combat was a cheap way to have fast combat-like thrills.  However, I'm not really interested in what 1/2 A combat has evolved to, either!  I think I'm an old fuddy-duddy.

[Andrew Hathaway]

The MAN plans are only a little different from the short boom Voodoo kit.  The spar is about 1/4 further forward or back in the rib, the outlines are marginally different.  The plans and early kit are pretty close. 

I rescued, reconfigured, and finished a partially built short boom Voodoo kit I got from Jim Kraft, a few years ago.  Later I blew up the magazine plans and printed a copy, before picking up a later long boom Goldberg kit.  The early Voodoo was built with a tin tank, case pressure, and a dope finish.  I built a long boom version with a bladder tube, Monokote, etc.  Both the short and long boom versions fly pretty good.  The long boom version with the various other updates flies a bit better.  The short boom version might work better with a lighter engine, never tried it.

[Randy Cuberly]

When the first "Heavy" Fox Combat special, and the Johnson Combat Special, came out in the early 1960's the longer booms on the Vodoo's became a must if you wanted them to turn.  The two or more extra ounces in the front simply pushed the CG too far forward.
The longer booms restored that and the CG and gave the turn radius needed.

Simple expediency.  All the Voodoo's I saw after that had long booms and the kit added them shortly after that.

Randy Cuberly

[riley wooten]

The reason the MAN plans match the kit is they were the ones used for the changes on the kit.. The mag article was to introduce the Voodoo for the coming CG kit......  If you want to increase performance increase span tip rib to tip rib to 36", plus tips.  The original stabilator was also slightly larger and we used several shapes and sizes as well as booms being slightly longer.  I flew mine with the CG further back and think it is better, but it is a personal thing..  You should be comfortable and able to put it where you want it at all times...........
In talking to Walter I had a spell of old timers and did not remember making the booms longer on the later Sneeker kits...
My thinking on combat planes is to keep wing loading as low as possible and power as high as possible !!
rw

[Mel Gray]

Thanks, everyone, for sharing your comments and experiences.

Wow, I can't do better than to hear from The Man himself.  Guess I allowed my mind to drift back to those fun times.  I do recall a match at the Southwesterns with Pete Jaden, from the Lubbock bunch, and watching him deftly turn inside one of my "supercool" moves to neatly take my streamer.  I kinda figured his airplane was more special than my kit Voodoo.  Of course, his piloting skills were way ahead of mine.

Sure was fun.  Thanks for everything, Riley.

Mel

[Andre Ming]

So there we have it: Those that were actually attending the contests and building the airplanes say it's so.  Long booms started coming to the fore in the mid-late 1960s.

Thus, faulty memory/perception (such as mine on this one) will get trumped by personal experiences every time!

Now... what were we talking about?   

[badbill]

I just wanted to post a pic of my new Voodoo! Fox 29 CS.

[Frank Imbriaco]

I'm pretty sure that long booms on Voodoos did not appear on the East Coast to 71-72.  My flying  buddy Tom Luciano has a standard  old Voodoo with a good running Fox 36xBB that he graciously allows me to take up a couple of times a year. My recollection of the 4 or 5 long boomers I toyed with at the 72 NATs and other events is that they turned a bit better, but not by much. If I were to put together( and I'm seriously contemplating one for the 2016 Winter build season)  another one , it'd be identical to the Goldberg issue. Reflexes have a way of slowing up long before one  receives a S.S. check, so why not- it's all about flying one for the fun of it for me; not competing. Like so many others have commented, the newer(1980s on) stuff holds little appeal to me from an aesthetic point of view.
If anyone out there knows a source of full size plans for the Voodoo( Goldberg issue) and the great decal, please point me in that direction.

[Larry Borden]

I first met Riley while I was stationed at Reese AFB in Lubbock. At the 1970 Air Force Championships, I won combat with a VooDoo and ST 35.
If I remember correctly, the Demon and the Sneeker sold for either 2.95 or 3.25. When Howard's Nemesis became a M&P kit, I jumped on that band wagon. Unfortunately for me, I always had a problem trying to keep up with the Nemesis. LOL  I decided in my infinite wisdom to go back to Sneekers. The kits were cheaper and easy to build, so I put in a call to Riley to send me 6 kits. I asked him to cut longer books for me at 4 inches. I also cut into the LE to move the engine back and reinforced the out board wing. I could handle these airplanes, more or less. Also if you remember, Riley included jig blocks in the Sneeker kits and which made the kit quick to build. I flew these all through my combat career and had a ball building and flying them.
I wrote an article for the MACA newsletter about the modifications that were made.
I have a Walt Umland kit that I'm going to build, just like my old ones. Probably have to have someone else fly it. Not sure at this point in time I could keep up. Reflexes not like they once were.

[John Kelly]

   ...Hey Frank, OUTERZONE has the plans.  Cheers,  John

[bob whitney]

  remember the boom length was adjusted for the weight of the newer engines to make them fly properly.  long boom ,light engine squirrely plane. short boom heavy engine  slow turning . matching the booms to the engine makes the good flying plane

[BillLee]

I seem to remember Riley telling me that HIS Sneekers had one more rib bay each end than the kit. Kit was made to use available 36" wood, hence, a shorter span.

Riley, is my memory bad?

Bill

[Frank Imbriaco]

John :
Thanks for the tip about Outerzone.
Regards,
Frank

[John Kelly]

   ...Your Very Welcome,  Cheers,  John

[Larry Borden]

I seem to remember Riley telling me that HIS Sneekers had one more rib bay each end than the kit. Kit was made to use available 36" wood, hence, a shorter span.

Riley, is my memory bad?

Bill

He recently told me about increasing the wing span to 36", also.

[riley wooten]

I seem to remember Riley telling me that HIS Sneekers had one more rib bay each end than the kit. Kit was made to use available 36" wood, hence, a shorter span.

Riley, is my memory bad?

Bill

Bill, you are close..............The span was reduced  so we could use 30" wood and a 30" box....Both were much cheaper that way and we were trying to keep retail under $3.00.....I felt the plane was still competitive that way and was a little more rugged......It made a good kit that was successful, both in sales and competition.....Some of the original planes were built with an extra panel and some spaced the ribs further apart and used more false ribs......They were either covered with silk or silkspan back in the 60's........Today, if using plastic covering I would recommend silkspan from the spars forward covered with plastic to help maintain the airfoil................rw

[Mike Keville]

My favorite was the Demon.  Built quickly, turned tight.  Couldn't possibly keep up with one today, but ahhh...the memories!

[phil c]

I built a kit VooDoo in the early 70's.  A long boom version with a TWA 36 on it.  With a Top Flite pylon prop(8-1/2 x 6-1/2) on it it would do 7 laps in less than 14 sec.  The problem was the first turn was a 90deg. loop.  Then as long as you could keep it turning it did pretty well.  Taught me to counterbalance the stabilator a lot more than was usual so you could actually move the controls at full speed.

Many VooDoo's were built using 36in. shaped leading edges, as Riley mentioned doing.  Looking back through old mags(before they got lost in the flood) I recall seeing at least half a dozen different combat planes in the pictures, such as at the NATS, where they obviously had extra rib bays, more chord, etc. that didn't match published plans or sketches.  Too many of us were, young, uneducated and broke to catch stuff like that.

[Chad Hill]

I remember seeing G21 powered VooDoos, with Nemesis booms and stabs, in the Detroit area during the early to mid 70s.

[riley wooten]

I built a kit VooDoo in the early 70's.  A long boom version with a TWA 36 on it.  With a Top Flite pylon prop(8-1/2 x 6-1/2) on it it would do 7 laps in less than 14 sec.  The problem was the first turn was a 90deg. loop.  Then as long as you could keep it turning it did pretty well.  Taught me to counterbalance the stabilator a lot more than was usual so you could actually move the controls at full speed.

Many VooDoo's were built using 36in. shaped leading edges, as Riley mentioned doing.  Looking back through old mags(before they got lost in the flood) I recall seeing at least half a dozen different combat planes in the pictures, such as at the NATS, where they obviously had extra rib bays, more chord, etc. that didn't match published plans or sketches.  Too many of us were, young, uneducated and broke to catch stuff like that.

Phil:
At 128+ in the early 70's it would not take much tight turning to win matches if you didn't screw up.... LOL...  My planes weren't that fast but with a lot of whipping came close... I never had that problem (90 deg first turn) even with a short boom kit Voodoo.  I would think the plane was too heavy or cg was way too forward.  What did a TWA weigh?  I went to great lengths to keep my planes light.... Speaking of counter balance, one of my favorite planes in the Quicker, Voodoo series was one I called the Super Sonic... It had a counter balanced elliptical stabilator with a 3" root cord and a little longer booms. One had an 18% section and turned very tight but I thought it lost too much speed in turns with the available power at the time.
rw

[Frank Imbriaco]

And more down throw  than up   helped, for sure. My favorite: a tight outside loop from 35-40 degrees  to start the dance. Guys that followed usually went in. Sammy Bridges at Johnsville, Pa. Eastern States Championship 1972...
Sam  my man, are you out there ?

[phil c]

  the booms were lengthend as the engines got heavier. i think Riley had quit flying by then

Riley used a 9oz Johnson CS to power the VooDoo that claimed 106mph., at the NATS that year.

[Lyle Spiegel]

Does anyone hear from Sammy Bridges??
 

[Gordon Van Tighem]

 Another mod from the 80’s was John Jo’s Super VooDoo. 39” wingspan with single boom.
   

[phil c]

Does anyone hear from Sammy Bridges??
 

Not in the last 2-3 years.  He did show up at the NATS before that.  He got cajoled into flying and did a good job for not having flown a lap in a number of years.
If I had contact info I'd call or email to see how he's doing.

[phil c]

Well I finally found the Double VooDoo kit on the shelf.  Interesting find.
The wing is actually 36.5 in span- 36 for the leading edge and 1/4in added for each tip.  Chord, going by the parts, is 10.5in, including an 1/8in. on the trailing edge joint.  380 square inches.  A lot more than I remembered.  If you got reasonably light leading edges it would and did make a very good combat plane.  The original Double VooDoo had short booms, as in my kit.  the later ones had longer booms, about 5in.  The wing is just under 1.75in. thick.ll

So now I'll have to rework the Foam VooDoo cores.  Glad I caught the difference before cutting a bunch.  Nobody had the numbers, and scaling up from about 3 different drawings  it appeared to be a 9.5in. chord for the original VooDoo.
I think I'll make a longer span and tapered wing and call it "True VooDoo".

[Tom Luciano]

Phil,
  I ended up at 9-1/4" with adding the piece of basswod trailing edge. The plan i have has it at 9.5". I just laid it on top of my kit built and the chords are identical. Ill bring both with me Sunday. I think you enjoy how the prototype 1 fly's. The La pulls it quite well.

Tom