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Author Topic: Ranger head question  (Read 3357 times)

Offline Terry Caron

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Ranger head question
« on: March 01, 2015, 03:18:34 PM »
Did Rangers make a 4-bolt head for the Fox .35 that took the 3/8-24 VG-1 Champion glow plug?
Were Rangers available only on Foxes, or as after-market also?

Thanks.

Terry
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Offline Phil Bare

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2015, 04:38:26 PM »
Terry, as far as I can tell, the Ranger head was only used on 1952, 1953, and 1954 engines. I have never seen a 4 bolt Ranger head nor one tapped for a 3/8 x 24 plug.

Regards, Phil

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2015, 05:29:26 PM »
Thanks  Phil -
I'm trying to help a buddy with his old Fox .35.
His, a 4-bolt head '53, appears to have a factory head, but Fox didn't make 'em.
So it may be a (very craftsman-ly) re-done Ranger, if they didn't make it either.
I'd never even heard of Ranger heads 'til a few days ago, so don't know, but Bob Zambelli posted pix here http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,38061.0.html (reply #10) showing at least 2 he said were Ranger 4-bolt.
I can't say for sure, but looks like the lefthand on 2nd row may even be for 3/8" - hole appears larger than neighboring heads.

Terry
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Offline Phil Bare

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 07:59:37 AM »
Terry, from 1948 through 1950 the Fox .29 and .35 had the 4 bolt thin or thick head and a 2 screw cc cover.
In 1951 the head was still 4 bolt but the cc cover was 3 screw.
In 1952, the 6 bolt head was introduced on both the .29 and .35.
Fox had the heads manufactured by the Ranger Company from 1952 through 1954.  I think that the reason for the ranger head was the fact that Fox had a good bit of trouble with the early (48-51) heads which were gravity castings and Ranger had pressure die casting capability.
In 1955 Fox moved from California to Arkansas and obtained pressure die casting equipment.
1955 was all new castings, pressure die cast, much more consistent and uniform than the gravity castings (sand cast).
Regards, Phil Bare

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 08:29:20 AM »
Oops, sorry - I misspoke Phil.
His is a '51, not '53, with a thick head, I now suppose Fox.
Note the taper prop drive.
If neither Fox nor Ranger made 3/8", must be a homebrew.
Stripped out threads and lotsa VG-1s available back in the day, probably.
These may help.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 08:56:00 AM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Phil Bare

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2015, 09:36:19 AM »
Terry, My guess is that it was stripped and retapped for the 3/8 plug.

Regards, Phil Bare

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 03:34:38 PM »
Thanks Phil - great minds run in the same rut.  ;D

Guess a used head or a threaded insert is the way to go.

regards,

Terry
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 09:57:15 PM »
Or have someone machine the fouled head into a clamp and machine a button insert.  I had a sandcast 35 with a cross threaded glow plug hole.  I fought hard for a replacement head on Ebay, it was stripped too.  LL~ 

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 10:19:55 PM »
FWIW, while I don't know if it would hold under compression, if not totally stripped out, I'd give Loctite 271 Red (requires 500 deg to loosen) a try in one of 'em Andrew.
Cant' see a downside beyond maybe losing a plug.  :)

Terry
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 10:25:38 PM »
I want to say I ended up cleaning up the threads on the original head and by using a modern plug with a bit longer threads was able to tighten the plug enough to seal.  It's been a few years, I've since picked up a few more sandcast 35s I could use, but I've never gotten around to putting any of them on a plane.  I keep meaning to build a decent OTS model worthy of a period correct Fox, just haven't been able to make it a priority.

Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2015, 05:39:57 AM »
Terry - check out my article in CL World on how to fix the head.
Or, you can send me the head and I'll repair it.

  Bob Z.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2015, 08:43:04 AM »
Great Bob - I'll let my bud know.
Thanks.

Terry

Addendum:
Bob - is the article in Jan, 2007 issue or is the website just not updated?
(Where) Are back issues available?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 09:31:39 AM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 09:52:20 PM »
One last question - did the '51 .35 have the standard Fox Stunt NVA (or accept it and the common replacements)?

Thanks

Terry
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Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 11:37:19 PM »
Terry - I have a "new in box" 1951 Fox (Arnold) 35.
It has some sort of universal needle valve with an "S" bend on the extension.

I will be breaking it in soon and I'll let you know how the NVA works.

   Bob Z.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 11:48:51 PM »
Thanks Bob - that'll be appreciated, and best of luck with it.
(Color me envious!)

Terry
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2015, 12:15:15 AM »
The early stunt Fox 35s used an Austin Craft universal needle valve assembly.  There are pics on Bill Mohrbacher's Fox 35 ID thread on Stuka Stunt - http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=323889  I want to say that some of the 1952 engines used the Austin Craft assembly too.

The entire Austin Craft assembly can be replaced with the entire Fox unit, but none of the individual parts are compatible with the other.  Ironically the Austin Craft needlevalve is much better for fine adjustment than the Fox flat sided needlevalve.  Something of a moot point as Austin Craft is all but extinct and they're kind of hard to come by.

Austin Craft, Kap Pak, and Perfect all sold universal needlevalves that are remarkably similar, but the parts generally won't interchange as the spraybar threads are usually different.  Some of the universal needlevalves are really terrible quality.  They like to vibrate loose, or the spraybar breaks in two at the hole in the middle, or the needle leaks or is so loose that the engine won't even start and run with the universal NVA in place.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 09:12:44 AM »
Thanks for the info Andrew, and I think I'll let my friend track down one of those if he wants it.
Sorting out this head thing has been fun.   n~

Terry
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Offline Phil Bare

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2015, 11:26:41 AM »
One last question - did the '51 .35 have the standard Fox Stunt NVA (or accept it and the common replacements)?

Thanks

Terry

Terry, The 1948 through 1951 Fox .35 and .29 used NVAs manufactured by Austin Craft.
Fox started manufacturing his own in 1952 and are basically the same up until the past 3 or so years.

Regards, Phil Bare

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2015, 11:48:46 AM »
OK guys, your having answered all my questions about Ranger heads, while I have the attention of such knowledgeable folks let's drift off-topic , 'cause I have an inquiring (fevered?) mind and I fear my name is coming up too often on new threads - so, about Fox needles:
1) I know of the flat needle and it's issues (which haven't presented problems for me as I basically just piddle with engines) and I know there's the tapered needle -
a) is it purely replacement or factory at some point?
b) does it fix anything?

2) If the early CS spade needle was to prevent flutter, why the tapered replacement for it and does it work as well/better?

These ( and ~20 cups of coffee a day) are the sort of questions that keep me up at night.
In my defense, crappy weather has prevented my beloved piddling, so I haunt the forum.  ;D

Terry
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 02:01:32 PM by Terry Caron »
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Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2015, 02:19:29 PM »
Terry - in my opinion, the best way to fix a Fox needle valve is to toss it!

Don't get me wrong, I have had some that work well but most I consider junk.

If you like a Super Tiger (collet type) needle valve, buy one from Randy Smith.

If you prefer a ratchet type, get an Enya or OS assembly and turn down the section that is visible in the venturi to .125".

I am flying a Nobler and Stinger, both with stock Fox 35s. After attempting all sorts of tricks to get the Fox NVAs to work, I finally got fed up and installed modified Enya NVAs in both. They are perfect runners.

If you need a universal NVA, I might still have a few.

Bob Z.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2015, 02:52:02 PM »
Actually Bob, I was asking just for my eddykashun - I like learning stuff.  ;D

The one Fox I fly (6 times last year total) has the old needle and held setting so didn't require fiddling.
Those in my bench-runners are fussy to set, sloppy threads, etc.

I have an ST in a .35 RH, discussed in another thread, and don't care for it much - works fine but the collet's a hassle.
In my limited experience, Enya & OS work great in their engines and would be my choice for replacement.

On the Universal, I just emailed Tom Smiley on it, so you may hear from him soon.
Thanks.  H^^

Terry

Addendum:
Never mind about question 2 above - I just received a taper-needle NVA from Phil Bare, so I'll find out how well it works. #^
Thanks again Phil!

« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 03:36:24 PM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2015, 05:20:34 PM »
The story behind the tapered Fox needle is that some time after Duke Fox died, John Lowry started taking the Fox van and Betty Fox to various contests.  She noticed that almost everyone using Fox 35s in contests were not using Fox needlevalves.  Shortly after (1993-ish) Fox started handing out the new tapered needle for testing, along with instructions that Fox users could chuck their old flat sided needles in a drill and attack them with a file until fully tapered.  Aside from the extra grinding and at some point a slightly finer knurling, the full taper needle is the same as the flat sided needle.  About a year after the test needles, it seems like all the needles coming from Fox were the tapered version.  I want to say the last 40th Anniversary Fox I bought (the 50th's were already out on the market, about 1999-ish) came with the fully tapered needle, along with the finer knurl pattern and barbs on the fuel line end of the spraybar.

So how well does it work?  Better than the flat sided needle.  Trouble with the flat side needle is that if you can't find the happy needle setting within about half a turn, you have to go another half turn in a completely different setting, before you get back to kinda where you were before.  Basically you could turn the needle in, and it'd go from a rich setting, to lean, then rich, then lean, etc.  In theory with the dual hole spraybar it's not quite a 1/2 turn, but you get the picture.  By making the taper round, instead of a flat spot, suddenly the Fox needle is linear!  Go figure. 

So what about the spade tipped combat needle?  Hard to say exactly, but it probably went from the spade tip to a fully/fine tapered needle because it was cheaper to manufacture, and not goofy.  There's also the fact that the early Combat Specials shake like hell, while the later ones did not.  The Combat Specials I run on my planes all get the later full taper needle, mostly because I've got a ton of them stashed away and wouldn't feel terribly bad if I accidentally damaged one in a crash.  They work fine on the Series III, 36X etc.  My Series I and II kind of run like poop, but I really doubt that has anything to do with the needle.

There are other problems with the Fox needlevalve.  In no particular order...

1.  The threads are OK but the tolerances are Fox spec.  You can get a needle that leaks air into the spraybar and that can be a problem.  The easy fix is to cut a piece of fuel line about 5/16" long and slip it over the needle before threading it into the spraybar, so it compresses between the spraybar and the lower knob on the needle.  This will also dampen some of the vibration. 

2.  The next issue is the Fox needle is fragile.  They'll break on nose overs, or catching a loose fingertip on a leather starting glove, etc.  When there's a chance it'll get in the way, and it could stand to be shorter the easy fix is to clip the top knob off the needle, then grab the stub just above the lower knob with pliers, and bend the end sticking past over about 90*.  The steel is soft enough to make the bend with pliers and I've never had one fracture in the process.  I've never managed to break one shortened as described, and it has the side benefit of making it easy to see where the needle is pointing and easier to adjust.

3.  The spraybars without barbs don't like to hold modern silicone fuel line.  There are a couple fixes, you can try to find smaller "medium" size fuel line.  Some manufacturers make a smaller medium size that tends to bite the spraybar better.  Another fix to try is cutting another piece of fuel tubing about 5/16" long and stretch it open with a hemostat and slip it over the end of your main fuel line, which makes the tubing bite a little tighter.  A person can also solder almost anything on the end of the spraybar to act as a barb, just keep in mind it'll have to be smaller than the threads or removed to change the spraybar in the future.

4.  Sometimes when you put the modern full taper Fox needle in the older brass spraybars, the needle won't screw in far enough to close the fuel jet in the spraybar.  Whether this is because of tolerances, or just one or two bad needles, or bad spraybars, I don't know.  All I know is that sometimes you can run the needle in as far as it goes and the engine still runs rich.  The old flat needle works fine with those spraybars, and the new tapered needle works fine in other spraybars, including some of the brass ones.  I'm not saying you'll ever run into one that has this problem, but it's something to watch for.  It's easy to check, just slip a piece of tubing on the spraybar and blow in it while you tighten the needle.  It should get harder to blow into then stop flowing completely.

The ST NVAs are great.  Set the collet snug, with the needle still easily adjustable.  When you get it close, tighten the collet until you can turn the needle without bending it or hurting your fingers, and you'll probably never have to touch it again unless you change the setup or the conditions you're flying in.

I run mostly the late tapered Fox needle, in both the old brass and later steel spraybars, modified as above, and have very very very few issues.  I've got several setup with the ST G51 NVA and they run fine too, when I have to make an adjustment it's easier to fine tune the ST needle, but that's usually just the first few flights on a new plane, or after removing the needle for maintenance, etc.  In some cases, where it really doesn't matter (Bi-Slob) I'm still using the flat sided needle.  Since it doesn't matter, and I rarely ever need to make an adjustment to a Fox 35's needle, they work just fine.  Given something other than just a sport plane, I'd probably choose the Randy Smith NVA for the Fox 35.  The only reason I don't use them is that most of the stuff I use Fox 35s on aren't worthy of such a nice piece of equipment.

Offline Phil Bare

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2015, 05:39:07 PM »
Terry, I think that you will find the NVA to work very well and especially so if you cut a short piece of silicon tubing to go between the ratchet and the venturie.
The biggest problem with Fox NVAs was/is the fit of the threads on the threaded portion of the needle and the spray bar. They were just too loose. The silicon tubing helps a lot.


Regards, Phil Bare



Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2015, 06:23:16 PM »
Superb "Fox Needle Seminar" Andrew - in fact, precisely how much I wanted to know.  ;)
Seriously, you've answered all the questions rambling around in my head, plus some that would've bugged me had you not been so thorough.
Now I better understand what's going on and why when one acts weird.

And yes Phil, I use a section of tubing.

So, with sincerest thanks once again to all, I can now let this thread die a natural death.
Unless there's something someone is champing at the bit to add.......  ;D

My best to all.

Terry
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Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2015, 03:53:20 PM »
Terry - I sent you a copy of my head repair article.
Let me know if it arrived in good order.

Bob Z.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Ranger head question
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2015, 04:52:48 PM »
Hi Bob -

I received it today and thanks so much.  H^^

I found it concise yet fully thorough enough for anyone only basically familiar with lathe work and machine shop practices.
Well-illustrated and interesting to boot.
I'll suggest you write a book on repair how-tos; bet this isn't the only trick up your mechanical sleeve.  ;D
I'd buy a copy!

regards,

Terry
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 07:16:18 PM by Terry Caron »
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