Two pieces from the latest CLW

[peabody]

De Hill wrote a piece on Old Time Stunt PLUS......essentially awarding bonus points for IC engines and more for "period correct" engines....clarifies some of the points that have been lost/ignored over the years. Includes John Miske's last list of OTS eligible planes, PLUS a dozen or so that have been discovered and documented.

Marvin Denny wrote a piece on Appearance points that makes a lot of sense (he always did make a lot of sense).

 

[Brett Buck]

De Hill wrote a piece on Old Time Stunt PLUS......essentially awarding bonus points for IC engines and more for "period correct" engines..

    That's a laudable idea, and was also part of the original concept of fidelity points in Classic. The notion that you are recreating the era by building an airplane with loving care to perfect period-correct materials/design/technique, and then plunking a AeroTiger or other similar super-engine with graphite prop in it always seemed a little strange to me. It probably makes more difference in Classic than OTS, but still, if you care about how it really was, there ought to be some penalty for deviations, or bonus for original period pieces.

    The problem with Fidelity Points in Classic is that almost nobody actually uses them, for various reasons. So, in Classic, someone who really knows what they are doing might have a 10-20 point advantage using a modern engine and techniques over those who really know what they are doing but use period engines and techniques.  If you don't use Fidelity Points, and include the engine/prop in the assessment of points, theres a strong competitive advantage to using modern parts.  The same sort of advantage may be around 5-10 points in OTS, since the pattern is much less demanding and the airplanes really can't take full advantage of the extra performance.

   Hopefully this will work in OTS, but the record in Classic has not been promising.

    Brett

[phil c]

With the Classic/Old Time flying I don't see much problem using a modern engine.  You know darn well if the guy that built the original would have had a choice between a Fox 35 and a modern engine you know which one he would have used.

As far as the planes go there are so many models where the published plans were "improved" by the draftsman, or the original builder built six different versions in 2 months.  From what I've read about Don Still's Victory he was building a new one every week, with different dimensions for different contests.  Or Hi Johnson's Stuka article where he suggests changing the fuselage length and the stab size to make it fly the way you want.

As long as somebody doesn't wrap a Nobler outline around an Impact (which version?) people shouldn't be too picky about what is allowed to fly.  We do do this for fun, not the million dollar prizes.

[John Leidle]

  Does anyone have an opinion about using electric in Classic? 

[Chris Wilson]

  Does anyone have an opinion about using electric in Classic? 

The word "classic" meanings leading in its time.

Was electric leading in that time?

[Garf]

I think electric needs to be banned from OTS, but since I don't fly OTS, my opinion doesn't matter.

[Gerald Arana]

Electric? In classic? Sure why not? Its just another source of power and I find it to be fine. 

The was an add in SN showing an electric waaaaaay back in early times of CL with the lines as the connection to the power source, (I think that is what it was) and airplane. I don't know how they kept from shorting out the battery. 

Enjoy, Jerry

[Ward Van Duzer]

SHOCKING!


W.

[john e. holliday]

If I remember right, electric has been flown at VSC in the past in both Classic and Old Time.   In some areas of this great land of ours IC engines are not allowed even with mufflers.  I see nothing wrong with electric other than the reliability of the system.   With practice IC can be very reliable if you fly often enough. 

[Bill Little]

To be totally honest, I would rather not see Electric in OTS and Classic, especially OTS.  The models did not use electric in those eras.  But I know how things are in different places and electric HAS to be flown.  I would not object to see a maybe 5 point penalty for electric in those events.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Sean McEntee]

To be totally honest, I would rather not see Electric in OTS and Classic, especially OTS.  The models did not use electric in those eras.  But I know how things are in different places and electric HAS to be flown.  I would not object to see a maybe 5 point penalty for electric in those events.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

   ...at least 5 points.

   We already have bonus points for diesel and ignition engines in OTS.  increase those by 5-10 points and add a 5-10 point bonus for glow engines.   
   
    My opinion is this:  While PAs and Aerotigers aren't period engines, they do employ the same technology of those periods.  Electrics?  Not so much.  What would be great to see is recreating some of these electric setups that did exist back then.  Otherwise, its pretty hypocritical to consider modern electrics to be "the future of" nostalga classes

[Chris Wilson]

Do you follow the plan when it says to use " a 35 or similar?"

Because an electric is not similar.

[FLOYD CARTER]

I like the idea of extra points for period-correct materials and construction practices.  The obvious problem  is that you must first find judges who can actually identify such from the usual. 

Floyd

[Dave_Trible]

My leaning is Classic power for Classic airplanes for Classic events.  If you want something else you can fly it in Pampa/AMA events.  Past history has shown that rules creep has killed other simple events,  defeating the original intent.  At the very least a stiff handicap would be in order for deviations.

Dave

[Frank Imbriaco]

If we penalize electric in Classic, there will probably be fewer entrants at contests. Remember that Classic aircraft remain highly competitive in CLPA and guys enjoy the flexibility of using them in both events.
Again, there is a real possibility of losing contestants.

[peabody]

I've been a CD for 25 years....including OTS and Classic events. The issue is that it is almost impossible for a CD to honestly rule on authenticity and fidelity....

I do feel that electrics should be "docked" points if flown in OTS.....they aren't really in the "spirit" of the event. Not a lot....mayhaps five points? Just enough to "sting" a bit.....

[Mike Griffin]

Rich I wii go even further than you did, I do not think electrics belong in old time stunt.  Please don't anyone misunderstand what I am saying here.  Electrics have their place but I don't think Old Time Stunt is one of them.

Mike

[Clancy Arnold]

Jerry
I wonder if you might be remembering the Control Line  Scale article in the April 1985 issue of Model Aviation magazine.  That is where Jack Sheeks and I demonstrated indoor electric with the power supplied through the flying lines.
Clancy

[peabody]

Mike: While I agree that electrics "don't belong in OTS", I hate to exclude anyone from participating.
John Miske began OTS to see old designs fly, and he wanted to be as inclusive as possible within  the parameters that he set forth. That's why no BOM.
As more designs were "unearthed" and PAMPA began including them even if they were not in compliance with GSCB rules, the GSCB adopted PAMPA eligibility standards. John approved of this (he and I discussed it at length before I proposed it to the club).

I just feel that there should be a minor penalty for electrics....

[Gerald Arana]

Jerry
I wonder if you might be remembering the Control Line  Scale article in the April 1985 issue of Model Aviation magazine.  That is where Jack Sheeks and I demonstrated indoor electric with the power supplied through the flying lines.
Clancy

Clancy, No that wasn't it. I can't think of the airplane it looked like. It was a low wing with dihederal and the gear was way out front. The engine was upright and on ignition (I think).
It was in the late Doug (something) column. Anyway, not important I guess......

Jerry

[Ted Fancher]

I've been a CD for 25 years....including OTS and Classic events. The issue is that it is almost impossible for a CD to honestly rule on authenticity and fidelity....

I do feel that electrics should be "docked" points if flown in OTS.....they aren't really in the "spirit" of the event. Not a lot....mayhaps five points? Just enough to "sting" a bit.....

Hmmmmm,  Rich. 

Given the debates about objectively rewarding "correct scores" to our "tricks" over the years, one could probably make an excellent argument for any rational, moderately historically informed judge to be able to make a more objective assessment of "period" compliance than of those tricks.  We're basically talking motors, hinges and covering/finish and maybe the lucky guy that still has some Veco spinners and wheels. 

As the originator of the "Fidelity point" concept I'm not exactly a disinterested observer but I continue to think we missed the boat by not utilizing them.  Makes a lot more sense than bonus points for no flaps in OTS where the pattern requires nothing aerodynamically that a well powered Ringmaster can't perform pretty darn well!

'Course, I lost that argument several decades ago and have managed to somehow survive to an age at which remembering which trick comes next is a primary challenge!  Vintage stunt events quickly became and continue to be a huge part of the continued relevance of the hobbysport.

Ted

[Brett Buck]

As the originator of the "Fidelity point" concept I'm not exactly a disinterested observer but I continue to think we missed the boat by not utilizing them. 

   It's more than just missing the boat, I think. Not using fidelity points, you have absolutely no other defined mechanism for *any* deviation from the original, including slapping navy blue paint on an Infinity and calling it a Nobler. So far no one had done it but there would absolutely no sanction or recourse to stop it in the rules. I don't think it's a pressing issue and I have pointed out the issue to people who care about Classic and they haven't been too concerned, but to me it is a simple matter to correct, and maybe it should be corrected before it does happen, thus avoiding a possible "incident" rather than waiting until it happens.

    Moreover, not including the engine in the fidelity points certainly obviates any purist arguments about how it recreates an era. People don't put Aero-Tigers in their Noblers because they can't come up with a Fox 35.

   I have heard Peabody's argument a lot - we don't know how to judge it, so we don't use it. I would suggest that's only because people are overly worried about "hi-fi" ing it. I've done fidelity points several times and had no particular problem with it. If nothing else, just use a 5-part scale

0 - Infinity painted blue and called a Nobler
5 - modern engine or electric, and/or large intentional deviations from design for performance enhancement
10 - Modern engine and prop or electric, airplane about right shape/size but modern finish and construction
15 - Modern engine and prop, airplane looks like 1959
20 - looks like Billy flew at 59 NATs

 We could have many happy arguments about whether the first three shold range from 10 to 20 or 17 to 20, and that sort of thing.   All you have to use is your *judgement*, and it takes a 10 seconds an airplane.

    Brett

[De Hill]

As more designs were "unearthed" and PAMPA began including them even if they were not in compliance with GSCB rules, the GSCB adopted PAMPA eligibility standards. John approved of this (he and I discussed it at length before I proposed it to the club).

Peabody;

You first came out with the statement that John Miske approved the additional OTS designs that were unearthed around 2012.
I called  John the same day, and he didn't remember talking to you and approving the new designs that were "unearthed".

I guess you misunderstood him.

[peabody]

I stand by my statement Dee.....it was while his hobby shop was opened, so I guess 2004 or so?

[De Hill]

Peabody,

I believe what John told me about not approving the new designs.