Author Topic: Winder build (Read 9965 times)

Dave Nyce · « **on:** February 10, 2015, 07:56:15 PM »

I'm building a Winder C/L combat plane from a short kit, with plan sheet but no instructions. The four center ribs have a height of a little over an inch, while the remaining ribs have a height of 7/8 inch. Normally, I would think the center ribs would have a smaller height, so they would be the same as the other ribs after the center section is sheeted. But the parts I have are as I described. Does anyone know why the center four ribs are higher?

Dave

wwwarbird · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2015, 08:32:47 PM »

I don't know diddly about this design but my first guess would be that whoever cut the short kit messed up and reversed the size and quantity of the rib set.

Chad Hill · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2015, 09:11:38 PM »

Terry Prather originally designed the Winder with a metal tank (later models had pacifiers). If memory serves me, the center ribs were of a thicker airfoil to accommodate the tank. The leading edge sheeting was 1/16" balsa, 2 & 1/2" wide, and it ran the full length of the wing.

If you flew the old Winders without beefing the center section up, the wings would fold after a few flights. I ran a 3/32" plywood doubler behind the leading edge in the center section to fix that problem.

Motorman · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2015, 09:17:51 PM »

Cool looking plane but, I've never seen a Winder that flew worth a damn. My dad easily beat Terry Prathers winder at the nats with a beat up Sneaker. Funny story, He crashed that Sneaker every match after getting the kill. After the Sneaker was no longer fixable the only plane dad had to fly the finals with was a Winder. He had guys offering him planes to fly but he believed in following the rules and they had the BOM rule at the time. The winder flew wonky as they do and he ended up 4th.

MM

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2015, 09:32:35 PM »

Huh. And I always thought Terry won the Nats with the Winder?
Chris...

Gordan Delaney · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2015, 11:05:00 PM »

Chris,
Terry didn`t win the nats with a Winder. My friend here in SLC,Ut. has one and he has it flying very well. Terry won with a VooDoo in senor Combat. I have a good source that tuned me in.

Gordy

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2015, 11:16:32 PM »

Hi Gordy.
Yeah, I was there I just wanted to get Motorman's take on his dad's matches against Terry. See you at VSC?
Chris...

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2015, 11:17:09 PM »

Quote from: Gordan Delaney on February 10, 2015, 11:05:00 PM

Chris,
Terry did win the nats with a Winder. My friend here in SLC,Ut. has one and he has it flying very well.

Gordy

Yeah, I flew winders for a whole season and they flew very well with G21 35 ST's. Just make sure the leading edge has a reasonable radius on it. If the Leading edge is sharp they will stall easily...nice round leading edge and they fly very well but do need consistent power...they won't fly well slow!!! Make sure the CG is precisely where it shows on the original plans 1/4 inch to the rear and you will hardly be able to fly it. 1/4 inch to the front and it won't turn, and will want to stall. Get it right and it's a great airplane and fast!

Randy Cuberly

Paul Smith · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2015, 06:51:17 AM »

As I remember, he won the senior class which was pretty small by then. In junior and senior getting in the air and not making a fatal mistake was a lot more important than airframe design.

The best kit designs, before the size increased. were the Voodoo, Sneaker, Combat Cat, and Big Iron. I regarded the Swoop and Winder as mere attempts to get into the combat kit business with a design that wasn't owned by somebody else.

Based on the success of Howard Rush and Richard Wilkins, the area and thickness of wings went through the roof and speed did not suffer as much as people assumed it would.

Gordan Delaney · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2015, 01:43:14 PM »

Ty.

Must of been a very large dime. Maybe huge dime.

Gordy

pipemakermike · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2015, 01:45:26 PM »

how about a picture for the combat flyers in the old country who thought that a winder was what a watch had<G>

Howard Rush · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2015, 01:56:32 PM »

Quote from: Gordan Delaney on February 11, 2015, 01:43:14 PM

Must of been a very large dime. Maybe huge dime.

On a visit to England, my colleague, upon seeing a 10p coin, observed, "Gee, you guys have really big dimes!"

Howard Rush · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2015, 01:58:01 PM »

Quote from: pipemakermike on February 11, 2015, 01:45:26 PM

how about a picture for the combat flyers in the old country who thought that a winder was what a watch had<G>

A winder to my hillbilly ancestors is a piece of glass installed in a wall to admit light.

pipemakermike · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2015, 04:04:27 PM »

Hillbillys had glass!!!

goozgog · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2015, 04:28:20 PM »

I believe that Chad is correct about the thicker ribs
allowing space for a metal tank.

Here is my drawing gleaned from many sources
including some help from Mr. Smith. Thanks Paul!

Cheers!

Howard Rush · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2015, 05:47:30 PM »

Didn't Terry use a pacifier pod? I think he covered the center with glass, too. Kit plans in those days usually showed tanks, even though the originals used pacifiers or bladders.

Mike Keville · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2015, 05:56:54 PM »

Caution! Thread hijack:

Terry Prather later went into Formula 1 RC Pylon...did rather well, too. Anyone know whatever bacame of him?

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2015, 06:10:19 PM »

I recall Terry did use the pacifier. The one Winder I built I used a plastic whiffle ball with a hole in it for the pacifier pod. I thought the airplane was a wild turkey in speed but not much on turning. Sort of think those center ribs were a little thicker for tank placement. At one point we removed the tips. Then we had to be careful about it snapping in on launch. I don't think I ever flew a match with it.

Dave

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2015, 06:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on February 11, 2015, 05:47:30 PM

Didn't Terry use a pacifier pod? I think he covered the center with glass, too. Kit plans in those days usually showed tanks, even though the originals used pacifiers or bladders.

The kit I had and gave away recently had molded plastic pieces to make a pacifier pod pretty much the same as the Spectrum kit (Randy Wilging) I still do have. That kit was made by consolodated. I don't remember who made the Winder kit (Sterling???)...but it was pretty much the same airplane, or at least very similar.

I used pacifiers in all my Winders and Spectrums.

Randy Cuberly

Curt D Contrata · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2015, 07:21:38 PM »

Quote from: Gordan Delaney on February 11, 2015, 01:43:14 PM

Ty.

Must of been a very large dime. Maybe huge dime.

Gordy

LOL - agreed

Curt

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2015, 09:21:52 PM »

Quote from: Mike Keville on February 11, 2015, 05:56:54 PM

Caution! Thread hijack:

Terry Prather later went into Formula 1 RC Pylon...did rather well, too. Anyone know whatever bacame of him?

PTG told me his mom and dad ran the books for the company so when it was time for them to retire he closed the company and retired as well. I think they live in San Pedro.
Chris...

Brett Buck · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2015, 10:30:28 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on February 11, 2015, 01:58:01 PM

A winder to my hillbilly ancestors is a piece of glass installed in a wall to admit light.

That's the first thing I thought of, too. As in - "We're fixing to have beanie-weenie for supper. Open up ALL the winders!"*

Brett

*Brak, "Cartoon Planet", circa 1996.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2015, 10:56:36 PM »

Brett is also ethnic Hillbilly.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2015, 11:21:30 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on February 11, 2015, 10:56:36 PM

Brett is also ethnic Hillbilly.

Reformed, not Orthodox.

Brett

phil c · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2015, 07:21:19 AM »

Quote from: Randy Cuberly on February 11, 2015, 06:58:58 PM

........I don't remember who made the Winder kit (Sterling???)...but it was pretty much the same airplane, or at least very similar.......

Randy Cuberly

The Spectrum had about a 1in. longer chord. It would turn better and didn't weigh any more. I know I read at some point that Prather's later planes had the pacifier and glass across the centersection and weighed as much as 25oz. The later, bigger planes are much more fun to fly.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #25 on:** February 12, 2015, 08:10:54 AM »

The Spectrum came from Dumas I think.

Dave

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2015, 10:42:31 AM »

Quote from: pipemakermike on February 11, 2015, 01:45:26 PM

how about a picture for the combat flyers in the old country who thought that a winder was what a watch had<G>

I thought this post was about a custom line winder. Jim Lee (Lee Machine) makes some nice ones.

Will Davis · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2015, 03:37:47 PM »

Quote from: pipemakermike on February 11, 2015, 04:04:27 PM

Hillbillys had glass!!!

Sure do

George · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2015, 05:08:35 PM »

Quote from: Will Davis on February 12, 2015, 03:37:47 PM

Sure do

Now that's a winder! :-)

George

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #29 on:** February 13, 2015, 01:26:09 PM »

Randy said that the exact location of the CG is very important. But my plan sheet does not show the CG. Does anyone have a plan that shows the CG location?

Thanks!

Dave

john e. holliday · « **Reply #30 on:** February 13, 2015, 02:02:55 PM »

Back when I flew or tried to fly combat, I balanced the planes on the spar or high point of the air foil. Only one gave me trouble until it got to speed and that was the Scarinzi Giant Killer. Would have stayed with Combat Cats as I liked the looks of them, but VooDoo's built faster.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #31 on:** February 13, 2015, 02:06:19 PM »

You wouldn't want to balance a Voodoo at the spar.

Chad Hill · « **Reply #32 on:** February 14, 2015, 05:54:32 PM »

My first Winder, 1971. Wing folded on about the third flight.

Chad Hill · « **Reply #33 on:** February 14, 2015, 05:58:51 PM »

By 1972 I had learned about pacifiers, bladders, fascal and monokote. Tanks and silk were gone forever. One of the Rudners t-boned this Spectrum into oblivion...

Chad Hill · « **Reply #34 on:** February 14, 2015, 06:02:57 PM »

Workshop in 1972. Part of Mom's laundry room. On the bottom is a Spectrum. On top of it is a Winder with a pacifier pod, another Winder frame is pinned to the table . Claire Schumaker Laser is on the very top. Third from bottom is a silked VooDoo. The others I can't make out.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #35 on:** February 14, 2015, 06:49:18 PM »

Quote from: Gordan Delaney on February 10, 2015, 11:05:00 PM

Chris,
Terry didn`t win the nats with a Winder. My friend here in SLC,Ut. has one and he has it flying very well. Terry won with a VooDoo in senor Combat. I have a good source that tuned me in.

Gordy
[/quote
Unfortunately, the kit manufacturer made a statement on the box cover to that effect. That got some N.E. combat flyers of the day in hot water for questioning.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #36 on:** February 15, 2015, 06:07:56 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on February 11, 2015, 06:51:17 AM

As I remember, he won the senior class which was pretty small by then.

Not sure about the size of the senior group at Los Alamitos , CA where I believe he had his Senior win in 1967. But, the Senior group at 68 Olathe, Kan., 69 Willow Grove, Pa and 70 and 71 at Glenview, Ill. were all big- 35-45 entrants. When I won Senior at Willow Grove (69), we had over 40.

Of course, Open was always huge. At Glenview, Ill. in 1972, there were over 75 entrants and we flew all day to reach the top .

jim welch · « **Reply #37 on:** February 15, 2015, 03:52:43 PM »

kenneth cook · « **Reply #38 on:** February 15, 2015, 05:00:49 PM »

Jim, that looks spectacular Ken

jim welch · « **Reply #39 on:** February 15, 2015, 05:27:09 PM »

Thanks Ken heres another....

jim welch · « **Reply #40 on:** February 15, 2015, 05:30:04 PM »

and another...sorry David for hi jackin your thread....got my computer fixed and going over to the combat section with Mike N Chad...got 18 more planes..Jim..thanks

Andre Ming · « **Reply #41 on:** February 16, 2015, 04:46:47 AM »

Excellent pics everyone.

Chad Hill: Very much enjoyed your vintage pics!

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #42 on:** February 16, 2015, 07:47:24 PM »

Thanks. But back to my earlier question: does anyone know where the center of gravity should be on the Winder?

Thanks

Dave

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #43 on:** February 16, 2015, 07:56:48 PM »

Dave 20-25% back from the leading edge will be a safe range to test fly. Then you can slowly work it back to get the turn you want. You'll know when you've gone far enough.

Dave

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #44 on:** February 16, 2015, 09:32:23 PM »

Quote from: DAVID NYCE on February 16, 2015, 07:47:24 PM

Thanks. But back to my earlier question: does anyone know where the center of gravity should be on the Winder?

Thanks

Dave

Dave,
I was surprised to fin I still had my old notebook on that Combat stuff....but I actually found it. My Winders, flew with the
CG 2 1/8" back from the leading edge.

I'm actually in the process of building a lot of old Combat planes now. Not for any kind of competition but just for fun sake.

The Winder will probably be one of them. I'm building a Spectrum, a Quicker, a Whatzit, an Omega, a Half Fast III, a Greased Lightning, a Jerkline Special, a Sweet Sweep, a Renegade, a Killer, a T-Square, a Fleetwon, A Sneeker, and of course a Voodoo, a Nemesis, a Swoop, and a Big Iron.
At one time or another I built and flew at least one of all those... Oh yeah and a little more modern an Allen Plane (which was called a Pretentious before it was an Allen Plane) when I flew them in Phoenix.

Hope that helps.

Randy Cuberly

Andre Ming · « **Reply #45 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:27:28 PM »

Quote

I'm actually in the process of building a lot of old Combat planes now. Not for any kind of competition but just for fun sake.

Glory be! Another has seen the light!

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #46 on:** February 17, 2015, 07:30:20 PM »

Quote from: Andre Ming on February 17, 2015, 05:27:28 PM

Glory be! Another has seen the light!

Well, I still intend to compete in Stunt (probably not very seriously though), but haven't competed in combat for many years. So I figure building and flying these old planes will be FUN.

I have the plans to no fewer than 37 older vintage combat planes...probably won't get around to building them all but it will be fun to try. I have a fairly large number of vintage combat engines also and will probably get some more.

Randy Cuberly

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #47 on:** March 01, 2015, 02:55:59 PM »

How much wing tip weight is needed on the Winder?

Thanks

Dave

Paul Smith · « **Reply #48 on:** March 01, 2015, 03:06:39 PM »

Quote from: Randy Cuberly on February 16, 2015, 09:32:23 PM

Dave,
I was surprised to fin I still had my old notebook on that Combat stuff....but I actually found it. My Winders, flew with the
CG 2 1/8" back from the leading edge.

I'm actually in the process of building a lot of old Combat planes now. Not for any kind of competition but just for fun sake.

The Winder will probably be one of them. I'm building a Spectrum, a Quicker, a Whatzit, an Omega, a Half Fast III, a Greased Lightning, a Jerkline Special, a Sweet Sweep, a Renegade, a Killer, a T-Square, a Fleetwon, A Sneeker, and of course a Voodoo, a Nemesis, a Swoop, and a Big Iron.
At one time or another I built and flew at least one of all those... Oh yeah and a little more modern an Allen Plane (which was called a Pretentious before it was an Allen Plane) when I flew them in Phoenix.

Hope that helps.

Randy Cuberly

Midwest Wasp. A great plane that was beaten by the difference between $2.95 and $3.95.

Dave Nyce · « **Reply #49 on:** March 03, 2015, 12:37:19 PM »

How much wing tip weight is needed on the Winder?

Dave