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Author Topic: Legacy Build  (Read 64403 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #150 on: May 18, 2015, 10:11:40 PM »
Gee Tim, mine is in silkspan. You need to move it along.

Paying work first, alas.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline REX1945

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2015, 12:07:28 AM »
I ended up not deepening any LE notches.  I did two things, the first probably smarter than the second.  The first side I just let the LE be straight, and then I came back later and put in shims where it didn't quite reach the notches.  Three or four ribs were affected.  On the second, I forced the LE a bit.  This put a 1/16" deep wow in the LE, which I then went back and shimmed up with a balsa strip, sanded down flat.  It'll leave some stresses (hence, not so good), but I think that once the LE sheet is on it won't mess the wing up.

To bring the ribs out to the sheeting, I'm going to shim it.  I can't quite bend 1/16" balsa along the grain to match the rib, so I soaked some balsa and bent it on "Bertha", my antique soldering iron that I inherited from a radio-amateur uncle.  The pictures are of the bent wood being held up against ribs to dry, and Bertha.

Balsa wood is astonishingly easy to bend if you use a bit of heat.  I use the shank of Bertha (not the tip!) which is probably a bit hot.  Get the wood wet -- it doesn't have to soak for long -- then tug on the ends while pulling it down over the iron.  It'll buckle if you don't keep some tension on it and give it time (I think that's because the wood in contact with the iron gets hot and pliable first; keeping a pull on it makes the bend want to happen by stretching the outside fibers, and waiting gives the outside a chance to get hot).  I've never tried wood thicker than 1/16", but it's great for Bostonian-sized airplanes.

     Tim,

     I've bent balsa up to 3/8 square by soaking it in ammonia overnight.  If the wood is selected as
soft enough, you get the feeling you could tie a piece of 1/16 into a square knot and not break it.

     For 1/16 LE sheeting I usually just spray it with Windex on the outside surface and wait 5 minutes.
I think Windex has ammonia in it,

Rex

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2015, 12:15:20 AM »
     I've bent balsa up to 3/8 square by soaking it in ammonia overnight.

Been there, done that, heat works better.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2015, 01:00:57 AM »
What, you're considering all the weight I must be adding, and thinking I'll need a small-block Chevy?

I plan on putting a Byron Barker Magnum 52 in it.  I'm also planning on making the motor mounts such that I can swap in a different engine at need, since I've heard contradictory stories about the suitability of that engine for that airframe.

I've seen three Legacy's built from kits and flown two of them.  None of them were what I would call "light weights"  One was in fact 69 oz all were over 64 oz.  In my opinion it's a good design and a good wing and will cary some weight if there's enough of the right kind of power.
I can't personally speak for the Barker Magnum 52 as I've never even seen one.  I will say however that of the three Legacy's I've seen two were powered by ST60's and the other had a PA61 Side Exhaust.   Of the ones I flew and helped trim the PA61 definitely was the best of the lot.  None were "overpowered".

I'm inclined to reccommend what I know works!  So I would definitely go with the PA if you can find one...there are some around!
Second choice would be a ROJett 61 either on a pipe or with the exhaust header.  In fact the ROJett on a pipe is one sweet setup...ask Brett.

Randy Cuberly

Definitely do not handicap yourself with an underpowered airplane. 
Randy Cuberly
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Offline REX1945

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2015, 11:29:33 AM »
Definitely do not handicap yourself with an underpowered airplane. 

    My Legacy weighs 62 Oz and glides quite well; really a floater. When I ran out of fuel inverted in the clover, I
managed to spin it back upright for a half-lap before level landing. I'm starting to think that the fuselage layout and
stab size (really big) were influenced by the Adams' Special.

   The power plant is a Saito .56; no doubt a lot less power than the RJ  .61


Rex

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2015, 11:32:48 AM »
Definitely do not handicap yourself with an underpowered airplane. 

That's why the motor mounts will be configured for engine swapping -- if the current engine is a mistake, I won't be stuck with it.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2015, 11:42:12 AM »
I built a kit Legacy with a T&L Super Tigre 51.  This seems the ideal power.  I built another Legacy "clone" from the plans with a Stalker 51, which is also the ideal power.  Both weigh just about 60 oz.

Floyd
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2015, 12:15:44 PM »
     Tim,

     I've bent balsa up to 3/8 square by soaking it in ammonia overnight.  If the wood is selected as
soft enough, you get the feeling you could tie a piece of 1/16 into a square knot and not break it.

     For 1/16 LE sheeting I usually just spray it with Windex on the outside surface and wait 5 minutes.
I think Windex has ammonia in it,

Rex

Ammonia permanently weakens the fibers of the wood.  I would not reccommend this for any application that will be stressed such as a model wing!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2015, 12:19:29 PM »
I built a kit Legacy with a T&L Super Tigre 51.  This seems the ideal power.  I built another Legacy "clone" from the plans with a Stalker 51, which is also the ideal power.  Both weigh just about 60 oz.

I'm eyeing the Stalkers -- they seem like a good value/performance tradeoff for the level of tricks I can perform with these toy airplanes.  If the Magnum doesn't work out and I can fit a Stalker into the budget -- it may well happen.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2015, 01:15:27 PM »
Hi Howard,
Was that comment directed to me or to Tim.  The only time I've used what could be construed as a "crankcase cooling vent" was on my GeoXL and it was actually a small vent to the venturi for the long shaft Belko that has the intake located 180 degrees from where most engines have them.  In an inverted position for the engine the intake is on the top, which is a pretty static area for air flow on that particular airplane hence the "scoop style" vent for the intake.

If the comment was aimed at Tim, then...Never Mind!

Randy Cuberly
Love the trim scheme on that Algorithm.  Strange looking prop, what is it ?
Allan Perret
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2015, 01:54:40 PM »
I should actually watch some of Bob Hunt's videos so that I can pretend I know what I'm doing.

At any rate, I'm gluing a perimeter of balsa around the foam core of one elevator half.  At the moment I'm still experimenting to make sure I'm not on some totally bogus path, hence I'm taking baby steps.  From front to back in the picture are: weights that are holding the core (with trailing edge already glued on) to the leading edge, the core (and weights), the leading edge (and weights), an aluminum straight edge (and weights), and then the junk on my workbench.

I'm using Sig-Bond, which sounds like a strange choice, but I've found it to work well for gluing foam to wood, at least if you give it time to dry.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2015, 02:31:37 PM »
I should actually watch some of Bob Hunt's videos so that I can pretend I know what I'm doing.

I recommend them, at least those I've seen. 

Good thing you're using gold weights.  They are dense and chemically inert.
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Offline proparc

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2015, 02:34:43 PM »
None were "overpowered".

Randy Cuberly

Definitely do not handicap yourself with an underpowered airplane. 

That's right brother!!
One of the biggest mistakes I see with guys just starting out is, an inability to handle heavy power in a stunt ship. I can tell you from experience, the right amount of power is not enough!!

One of the biggest differences I've seen between the established Expert flyers, and the newbies is that, you will almost always see heavy power in the nose of the seasoned cats.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2015, 03:57:03 PM »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2015, 04:02:32 PM »
Here is what power is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28physics%29

That's not in the sense of "There is no good and evil, boy, there is only Power, and the willingness to use it".
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2015, 08:19:43 PM »
In 2003 I acquired a Legacy kit and planned on putting a Saito .56 in it.  Later, while working on it Saito was on sale at the model expo and I bought a .72 and sold the .56  After building most of it and being dissatisfied with the progress I weighed the already completed wing.  The itself was 13 oz.  Calling it portly was being nice.  With the rest of it that was completed, stab, elev, and most of the fuselage it was going to come in at well over 70 oz.  It was all kit wood.  After nearly two years of staring at it in my shop I tossed the whole mess.  Hopefully the manufacturer has improved on their wood selection, though it doesn't sound like it.  I sold the .72 as well without ever running either one of them.
Mike

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #166 on: May 19, 2015, 09:21:55 PM »
Love the trim scheme on that Algorithm.  Strange looking prop, what is it ?

Hi Allan,
I don't want to hijack this thread with long discussions of my Algorithm...but thanks for the comment!

The airplane is actually a slightly modified Werwage GeoXL and it's powered by a Belko long shaft .56.  The prop is a Belko made especially for that engine and is carbon over foam and is very light and efficient.  The Belko is a strange engine in appearance but runs just about perfect for stunt on No Nitro fuel.  The airplane weighed 54 oz and is 730 Sq/In wing area.  The venturi is on the bottom of the shaft and hence on top in the inverted installation which does complicate the engine installation.

If I had any sense I'd build another one of these since this one was stolen from the flying field after the idiot that owned it drove home and left it there for about 2 hours before realizing it!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #167 on: May 19, 2015, 09:35:15 PM »
Here is what power is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28physics%29 .  

Thanks for the reminder Howard.   LL~ LL~ LL~

However power is consumed at different levels during the total time of the stunt pattern and if more is needed than available at any given time it can be disasterous...uuhhh as in a stall at the third corner of the hourglass.  Don't ask me how I proved that.  It wasn't just mathematically!  HB~> HB~> HB~> y1 y1  That's what happens when there isn't enough available power to do the required work for a given period of time!

Hence a "pot" of more available power when required is a good idea.  If not used it simply  isn't in the equation...neither is disaster!  LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
PS:  Tim, apologies for drifting from the actual point of your thread!
Randy Cuberly
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #168 on: May 19, 2015, 09:51:19 PM »
I'm eyeing the Stalkers -- they seem like a good value/performance tradeoff for the level of tricks I can perform with these toy airplanes.  If the Magnum doesn't work out and I can fit a Stalker into the budget -- it may well happen.

The Large Stalker engines are very good.  The smaller ones are somewhat limited in available power compared to other types in equal sizes. 
At least that's been my experience.  The 60 size Stalker would probably be a good choice.  Kaz Minato has developed a new 77 that looks very attractive and relatively light at about 12 oz.  He claims it runs like a PA75.  He's tested the prototype extensivly in a couple of different airplanes,  Hard to do better than that if you suspect your airplane will be on the porky side.

I have one of them on order as soon as the productions ones are available and blessed by Kaz.

Randy Cuberly
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #169 on: May 19, 2015, 10:16:19 PM »
Thanks for the reminder Howard.   LL~ LL~ LL~

However power is consumed at different levels during the total time of the stunt pattern and if more is needed than available at any given time it can be disasterous...uuhhh as in a stall at the third corner of the hourglass.  Don't ask me how I proved that.  It wasn't just mathematically!  HB~> HB~> HB~> y1 y1  That's what happens when there isn't enough available power to do the required work for a given period of time!

Hence a "pot" of more available power when required is a good idea.  If not used it simply  isn't in the equation...neither is disaster!  LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
PS:  Tim, apologies for drifting from the actual point of your thread!

What you're describing isn't power.  Maybe it's rate of change of power with speed.  Who knows? 
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #170 on: May 19, 2015, 10:33:51 PM »
What you're describing isn't power.  Maybe it's rate of change of power with speed.  Who knows? 

Yes I agree Howard.  But once again this isn't a discussion of engineering technicalties and the semantics are well understood in a non-technical way.  Dont dismiss the rate of change of power with with speed and work with Who Knows!...

In a discussion of technical subjects with some non-engineering folks it's necessary to modify the semantics of technical discussion or you simply lose them and that accomplishes nothing, and turns a lot of them away.  I know you want to instruct, I feel the same way sometimes...but it just doesn't work to take a critical attitude in discussions like this.  Some people think engineers are just overbearing jerks anyway.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #171 on: May 19, 2015, 10:39:51 PM »
Some people think engineers are just overbearing jerks anyway.

Overbearing jerks happen when you rev the engine and drop the clutch.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #172 on: May 19, 2015, 11:04:52 PM »
Some people think engineers are just overbearing jerks anyway.

Guilty as charged. 

Why not just talk right?  You aren't doing anybody a favor by intentionally using technical terms wrong.   If you understand the concept, you should be able to communicate it to a nontechnical person using language correctly.  No, I don't think that stunt people have a consistent, alternate definition of power.  If so, where is it written and why? 
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #173 on: May 19, 2015, 11:31:49 PM »
Guilty as charged. 

Why not just talk right?  You aren't doing anybody a favor by intentionally using technical terms wrong.   If you understand the concept, you should be able to communicate it to a nontechnical person using language correctly.  No, I don't think that stunt people have a consistent, alternate definition of power.  If so, where is it written and why? 

They have one they generally understand...and by the way you understand it too, it's just not a technical definition.  They probably don't want to be engineers!

Randy cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #174 on: May 19, 2015, 11:34:09 PM »
Why not just talk right?  You aren't doing anybody a favor by intentionally using technical terms wrong.

Randy used the term "available power", not just "power".  I don't think it's a bad moniker for the effect.

If you feel bound and determined to continue the argument, could you start up a thread in the Engineering forum?  I think it's an interesting topic, but if you continue it here some vandal will be constantly posting pictures of a model airplane build.  Like this one, of one finished elevator half core and the other one all glued up, waiting to have a good fraction of itself turned into sanding dust.

(The finished one weighs 0.22oz.  I don't know if that's good or bad, but I do know that it's lighter than it's share of the two rock-hard leading edge sticks that were supplied.  I need to be careful with the 20 lb/ft3 one: I've already mistaken it for a motor mount once!).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #175 on: May 19, 2015, 11:35:00 PM »
Tim,
This is a link to Kaz Minato's discussion about the new 77 engine...very pretty at any rate.  You can bet if Kaz thinks it's worthwhile, it is!

http://kazminato.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2014/11/new-75-engine.html

Randy Cuberly

PS:  less than 1/2 oz for a stab sounds pretty good.  The hardware and hinges probably weigh more than that!
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #176 on: May 25, 2015, 07:12:26 PM »
  • Weight of elevator half core with perimeter: 0.22oz
  • Weight of elevator half core + skins: 0.46oz
  • Weight of elevator half freshly glued with Sig Bond: 0.63oz
  • Estimated weight after more thorough drying: 0.53oz

Weight loss due to drying is based on a test piece of Sig Bond that went from 0.9oz to 0.4oz as it dried while I was 180 miles south of here having fun flying toy airplanes.

The elevator halves were glued up all that time, but they were sandwiched between chunks of waxed paper, and lost less than 0.02oz each.  Now they're stacked on spacers so that free air can flow over them.  I'm assuming from the weight and the smell (they smell very strongly of Sig Bond) that all that the "drying" time has done has been to distribute the water from the glue throughout the wood.  I'll be monitoring the things to see how they do as they dry out, and as I make the stabilizers.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #177 on: May 29, 2015, 10:49:52 AM »
  • Weight of elevator half core with perimeter: 0.22oz
  • Weight of elevator half core + skins: 0.46oz
  • Weight of elevator half freshly glued with Sig Bond: 0.63oz
  • Estimated weight after more thorough drying: 0.53oz

Downside to using water-based glue: it's been 8 days since I originally glued it up, four of them have been stacked with airflow and a fan, and the pieces are only down to 0.56oz.  Either that last bit of water is there but coming out really slowly, or it's just not going to come out.

At any rate, I got the braces for rounding, and the LE and TE pieces glued on to the stabilizer (with less glue, too).  You can see that I believe in using weights for clamping.  It's mostly brass, with some scrap bits of steel and one treasured hunk of tungsten.  It's too bad you can't get blocks of degenerate neutronium on Amazon.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #178 on: May 29, 2015, 08:13:07 PM »
Downside to taking an 8-day hiatus from building: you forget what the @#$% you were doing.

Adding bits to the cores is much easier when they're out of the assembly rather than in.  It was all sanded and ready for sheeting when I realized that I didn't have anything backing it up inside where it meets the fuse.  So, some careful whacking with an xacto knife, some careful wood cutting and gluing and -- now I need to wait a bit before I do the next thing.

Tomorrow it'll be ready for skins.  I may even do it tonight.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #179 on: May 29, 2015, 09:33:00 PM »
There's a stabilizer underneath all that stuff.

The core with surround and wood weighed in at 2.02 oz; plus glue it was 2.68 oz.  Given what happened with the elevators I expect that to drop to about 2.4 oz.  Not wonderful, but it's not far from what I would have gotten with the kit wood, and it should be stiffer and finish out easier.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #180 on: May 29, 2015, 10:43:11 PM »
There's a stabilizer underneath all that stuff.

The core with surround and wood weighed in at 2.02 oz; plus glue it was 2.68 oz.  Given what happened with the elevators I expect that to drop to about 2.4 oz.  Not wonderful, but it's not far from what I would have gotten with the kit wood, and it should be stiffer and finish out easier.






A stab that weighs 2.4 ounces sounds porky to me. Bad place for excess weight.  I am on the Pacific coast camping currently, so I do not have my weights handy (they are all recorded, wink wink Howard), but I will chime in next Tuesday. My guess is that it should be more like an ounce less than what you have.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #181 on: May 29, 2015, 10:55:19 PM »
That's about what I estimate I'd get using the kit wood.

But yes, that sounds porky to me, too.  I'm flat out of 3/8" wood of any weight whatsoever, other than the rather heavy sticks that came with the kit, so I can't do much about it without ordering wood and waiting for it to show up.

Edit: It'll get lighter when I trim it and round the corners and all that stuff.  But I doubt it'll drop by an ounce.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 11:57:11 PM by Tim Wescott »
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #182 on: May 30, 2015, 11:28:34 AM »
That's about what I estimate I'd get using the kit wood.

But yes, that sounds porky to me, too.  I'm flat out of 3/8" wood of any weight whatsoever, other than the rather heavy sticks that came with the kit, so I can't do much about it without ordering wood and waiting for it to show up.

Edit: It'll get lighter when I trim it and round the corners and all that stuff.  But I doubt it'll drop by an ounce.


Tim,
My Trivial Pursuit Stab and Elevator assembled with Tom Morris adjustable horn, 8 hinges and ball link, weighs 2.4 oz.  It is built from very light wood.  It's built up structure and is 1/2 inch thick at the hinge line.

Based on this I have to agree that you stab is pretty "Porky"

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #183 on: May 30, 2015, 11:52:55 AM »
Here is what power is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28physics%29

In hopes of lightening up our pomposity I would like to share another Wiki reference to power which may take a broader point of view.  Here, also, are what power are:

Power
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
   Look up power in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Power may refer to:
Contents

    1 Science
        1.1 Mathematics
        1.2 Physics
        1.3 Computing
        1.4 Social sciences and politics
    2 Entertainment
        2.1 Film
        2.2 Literature
        2.3 Music
            2.3.1 Albums
            2.3.2 Songs
        2.4 Sports
        2.5 Television
    3 Other
        3.1 Places
    4 See also

Science
Mathematics

    Exponentiation
    Power of a point
    Statistical power

Physics

    Power (physics), the rate at which work is performed or energy is converted
        Electric power, the rate at which electrical energy is transferred by a circuit
        Horsepower, a unit of measurement for a mechanical engine's power
    In optics,
        Magnification, the factor by which an optical system enlarges an image
        Optical power, the degree to which a lens converges or diverges light

Computing

    Various related RISC instruction set architectures
        Power Architecture, a RISC microprocessor architecture
            Power.org, a consortium promoting this architecture
        IBM POWER Instruction Set Architecture
        PowerPC
    IBM Power (software), an IBM systems software operating system enhancement package
    MS PowerPoint, slide-presentation software

Social sciences and politics

    Economic power, purchasing, monopoly, bargaining, managerial, class, or short-side power
    Hard power
    Police power
    Power and control in abusive relationships
    Power harassment
    Power (international relations)
        Emerging power
        Middle power
        Great power
        Regional power
        Small power
        Superpower
    Power projection
    Power (social and political), the ability to influence people or events
    Smart power
    Soft power

Entertainment
Film

    Power (1986 film)
    Power (2013 film), a Bollywood film
    Power (2014 Telugu film), an Telugu film starring Ravi Teja and Hansika Motwani
    Power (2014 Kannada film), a Kannada film starring Puneeth Rajkumar and Trisha
    The Power (film), a 1968 science fiction film
    Power, a 1928 comedy film starring William Boyd, Alan Hale, and Jacqueline Logan

Literature

    Girl Got Game, originally Power!! a manga series
    Power (Fast novel), a 1962 novel by Howard Fast
    Power (play), a 2003 play by Nick Dear
    Power (Stiehl novel), a novel by J. A. Stiehl
    Power: A New Social Analysis, a 1938 sociology book by Bertrand Russell
    The Power (novel), a 1956 book by Frank M. Robinson, on which the 1968 film is based
    The Power (book), a 2010 self-help book by Rhonda Byrne

Music
Albums

    Power (Barrabás album), 1973
    Power (Boys Noize album)
    Power (B.A.P EP), 2012
    Power (Nekrogoblikon EP)
    Power (Ice-T album), 1988
    Power (Kansas album), 1986
    Power, an album by Lakeside
    Power (Q and Not U album), 2004
    Power, by The Temptations, 1980
    Power (Tower of Power album), 1987
    Power, an album by SSD
    The Power (album), by Vanessa Amorosi

Songs

    "Power" (B.A.P EP), 2012
    "Power", a song by Fields of the Nephilim
    "Power" (Helloween song), 1996
    "Power", a song by John Oswald, 1975
    "Power" (Kanye West song), 2010
    "Power", a song by Kat Graham (2013)
    "Power" (KMFDM song), 1996
    "Power", a song by Lipps Inc. from Mouth to Mouth
    "Power", a song by Rainbow from Straight Between the Eyes
    "Power", a song by Tears for Fears from Elemental
    "Power", a song by The Temptations, title track of 1980 album
    "The Power", a song by Cher from Believe
    "The Power", a song by Manowar from Louder Than Hell
    "The Power" (Snap! song), 1990

Sports

    Phil Taylor (darts player) (born 1960), English darts champion nicknamed "The Power"
    Pittsburgh Power, an Arena Football League
    Port Adelaide Football Club, nicknamed "Power", an Australian rules football club
    Power (horse), a British thoroughbred
    Power F.C., a professional football club based in Koforidua, Ghana
    West Virginia Power, a minor league baseball team

Television

    Power (Starz TV series), a 2014 drama series on Starz about a New York City illegal drug network
    "Power", an episode of season 6 of the drama series Smallville

Other

    Power (name), a list of persons with the surname
    2C-P, psychedelic popularly known as power
    Power (UTA station), a light rail station in Salt Lake City, Utah
    Power!, a 1985 video game
    Power98FM, an English-language radio station in Singapore
    Power (production company), a British television production company
    Powers, a rank in the Christian angelic hierarchy
    A quizbowl term meaning to get a question before a predesignated point for additional points
    The Power (XM), an XM satellite radio channel
    Power of appointment, a legal term, related to trust law
    Power of attorney, a legal term

Places

    Power, Montana, a census-designated place
    Power, West Virginia, an unincorporated community
    Power County, Idaho

See also

    J. D. Power and Associates, a global marketing information services firm
    POW-R, a set of commercial dithering and noise shaping algorithms
    Powers (disambiguation)



Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #184 on: May 30, 2015, 12:12:35 PM »
In hopes of lightening up our pomposity I would like to share another Wiki reference to power which may take a broader point of view.  Here, also, are what power are:

Power
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
   Look up power in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Power may refer to:
Contents

    1 Science
        1.1 Mathematics
        1.2 Physics
        1.3 Computing
        1.4 Social sciences and politics
    2 Entertainment
        2.1 Film
        2.2 Literature
        2.3 Music
            2.3.1 Albums
            2.3.2 Songs
        2.4 Sports
        2.5 Television
    3 Other
        3.1 Places
    4 See also

Science
Mathematics

    Exponentiation
    Power of a point
    Statistical power

Physics

    Power (physics), the rate at which work is performed or energy is converted
        Electric power, the rate at which electrical energy is transferred by a circuit
        Horsepower, a unit of measurement for a mechanical engine's power
    In optics,
        Magnification, the factor by which an optical system enlarges an image
        Optical power, the degree to which a lens converges or diverges light

Computing

    Various related RISC instruction set architectures
        Power Architecture, a RISC microprocessor architecture
            Power.org, a consortium promoting this architecture
        IBM POWER Instruction Set Architecture
        PowerPC
    IBM Power (software), an IBM systems software operating system enhancement package
    MS PowerPoint, slide-presentation software

Social sciences and politics

    Economic power, purchasing, monopoly, bargaining, managerial, class, or short-side power
    Hard power
    Police power
    Power and control in abusive relationships
    Power harassment
    Power (international relations)
        Emerging power
        Middle power
        Great power
        Regional power
        Small power
        Superpower
    Power projection
    Power (social and political), the ability to influence people or events
    Smart power
    Soft power

Entertainment
Film

    Power (1986 film)
    Power (2013 film), a Bollywood film
    Power (2014 Telugu film), an Telugu film starring Ravi Teja and Hansika Motwani
    Power (2014 Kannada film), a Kannada film starring Puneeth Rajkumar and Trisha
    The Power (film), a 1968 science fiction film
    Power, a 1928 comedy film starring William Boyd, Alan Hale, and Jacqueline Logan

Literature

    Girl Got Game, originally Power!! a manga series
    Power (Fast novel), a 1962 novel by Howard Fast
    Power (play), a 2003 play by Nick Dear
    Power (Stiehl novel), a novel by J. A. Stiehl
    Power: A New Social Analysis, a 1938 sociology book by Bertrand Russell
    The Power (novel), a 1956 book by Frank M. Robinson, on which the 1968 film is based
    The Power (book), a 2010 self-help book by Rhonda Byrne

Music
Albums

    Power (Barrabás album), 1973
    Power (Boys Noize album)
    Power (B.A.P EP), 2012
    Power (Nekrogoblikon EP)
    Power (Ice-T album), 1988
    Power (Kansas album), 1986
    Power, an album by Lakeside
    Power (Q and Not U album), 2004
    Power, by The Temptations, 1980
    Power (Tower of Power album), 1987
    Power, an album by SSD
    The Power (album), by Vanessa Amorosi

Songs

    "Power" (B.A.P EP), 2012
    "Power", a song by Fields of the Nephilim
    "Power" (Helloween song), 1996
    "Power", a song by John Oswald, 1975
    "Power" (Kanye West song), 2010
    "Power", a song by Kat Graham (2013)
    "Power" (KMFDM song), 1996
    "Power", a song by Lipps Inc. from Mouth to Mouth
    "Power", a song by Rainbow from Straight Between the Eyes
    "Power", a song by Tears for Fears from Elemental
    "Power", a song by The Temptations, title track of 1980 album
    "The Power", a song by Cher from Believe
    "The Power", a song by Manowar from Louder Than Hell
    "The Power" (Snap! song), 1990

Sports

    Phil Taylor (darts player) (born 1960), English darts champion nicknamed "The Power"
    Pittsburgh Power, an Arena Football League
    Port Adelaide Football Club, nicknamed "Power", an Australian rules football club
    Power (horse), a British thoroughbred
    Power F.C., a professional football club based in Koforidua, Ghana
    West Virginia Power, a minor league baseball team

Television

    Power (Starz TV series), a 2014 drama series on Starz about a New York City illegal drug network
    "Power", an episode of season 6 of the drama series Smallville

Other

    Power (name), a list of persons with the surname
    2C-P, psychedelic popularly known as power
    Power (UTA station), a light rail station in Salt Lake City, Utah
    Power!, a 1985 video game
    Power98FM, an English-language radio station in Singapore
    Power (production company), a British television production company
    Powers, a rank in the Christian angelic hierarchy
    A quizbowl term meaning to get a question before a predesignated point for additional points
    The Power (XM), an XM satellite radio channel
    Power of appointment, a legal term, related to trust law
    Power of attorney, a legal term

Places

    Power, Montana, a census-designated place
    Power, West Virginia, an unincorporated community
    Power County, Idaho

See also

    J. D. Power and Associates, a global marketing information services firm
    POW-R, a set of commercial dithering and noise shaping algorithms
    Powers (disambiguation)




Yeah, Howard, Take that!!!

 LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~!!!
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #185 on: May 30, 2015, 01:10:22 PM »
Sure, and "moment" can be a vague time interval, justifying the use of it for something physical it doesn't mean.  I picked the physics definition for power out of that list because you were talking about the characteristics of an engine, for which power is uniquely defined.  People's understanding of technical subjects depends on a foundation of knowledge, part of which is an agreed-upon vocabulary.  No, I don't think that "power" has a unique stunt definition that all stunt fliers understand.  If it did, it could be translated in a word or two to standard technical talk, and Tim could program it into his TUT.  In the words of a manufacturer of name-brand stunt engines, "Those xxxxxs don't know what they want." 
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Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #186 on: May 30, 2015, 02:51:25 PM »
Sure, and "moment" can be a vague time interval, justifying the use of it for something physical it doesn't mean.  I picked the physics definition for power out of that list because you were talking about the characteristics of an engine, for which power is uniquely defined.  People's understanding of technical subjects depends on a foundation of knowledge, part of which is an agreed-upon vocabulary.  No, I don't think that "power" has a unique stunt definition that all stunt fliers understand.  If it did, it could be translated in a word or two to standard technical talk, and Tim could program it into his TUT.  In the words of a manufacturer of name-brand stunt engines, "Those xxxxxs don't know what they want."  

Well I for one do know Howard, as you do and Tim does, as does all the other engineers on the forum.  I just don't believe in "tilting at windmills"  Some folks do I guess!


Hey Tim,
Sorry this is stuck in your building thread.  I promise not to go any further with this thing!

Did you see my post on the weight of my TP stab and elevator?  I think you probably need to rebuild yours using better wood.


Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #187 on: May 30, 2015, 03:02:21 PM »
Did you see my post on the weight of my TP stab and elevator?  I think you probably need to rebuild yours using better wood.

Yours and Paul's, yes.

Better wood and maybe less glue.  I went for about 12 thin beads of glue per inch; I suspect I should cut that by a factor of two over the foam.

I had been about to build the fuselage, then realized I wanted the stab & elevator to do fit checks on the controls, so I built 'em.  I think I'll order a bunch of wood from National Balsa now, proceed on the fuselage, and then if the stuff doesn't get magically lighter when I sand it to shape (there's lots of wood to be taken off, but not that much) I'll use it for fit checks & whatnot, but replace it with new wood for the actual flying surfaces that go into the plane.

Maybe I can use the thing for a 1/2-A wing.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #188 on: May 31, 2015, 07:36:19 PM »
The stab is 2.12oz after sanding, elevator half is 1/2 ounce.

Sigh.  Hello, National Balsa?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #189 on: June 02, 2015, 10:00:08 AM »
I'm back.  Checked the logs.

Predator 2014 stab weighed 33 g before paint (1.16 ounces).
It is a take apart configuration and has hardwood inserts for the attachment to the fuse.

The elevator halves weighed 9 g each before paint.

With good wood you can match those numbers.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #190 on: June 02, 2015, 08:14:44 PM »
and Tim,, you want to,, trust me,, ask me how I know,, sigh
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #191 on: July 07, 2015, 07:56:29 PM »
Wood finally ordered; progress should happen soon.

I ordered 3/8" and 1/2" sheet balsa; I'm planning on rip sawing it into sticks for the surfaces (with leftovers for quick profile builds).

So, about the time that you are all enjoying the Nats, I'll be here, sweating and building.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #192 on: February 14, 2016, 04:04:56 PM »
Wood finally ordered; progress should happen soon.

For a certain value of "soon", apparently.  I just got through a whole bunch of distractions and I'm now down to a bare building board and some wood pieces.

Having read a thread in the engineering section on stab LE shapes, I think I'll put a pointy LE on this one, per what I think Paul Walker and Brett were saying on the subject.  Make it lighter, too.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #193 on: February 14, 2016, 05:30:42 PM »
soon is after all a non defined period of time relative to something

so  I just built my third Horizantal stab for my new bird, the first two were over 2 ounces,, the new one is 1.3 ounces,, I will stay with it,,

now get to building, you need this for hte regionals,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #194 on: February 14, 2016, 07:24:37 PM »
Look!  Real live progress!  Wood clamped together and glue drying and everything!

I'm not aiming at less than 2 ounces, though -- I'm going to be happy with less than stab #1.  Better heavy and done and another started than this one not done, I think.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #195 on: February 14, 2016, 10:35:29 PM »
woo ohooo progress,, you go Tim
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #196 on: February 14, 2016, 11:08:09 PM »
now get to building, you need this for hte regionals,,

Probably Salem, if not next year.  I'll be Atlantasing this year.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #197 on: February 17, 2016, 03:41:04 PM »
Stab done.  It only took me three or four days, yipee.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Steve Helmick

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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #198 on: February 17, 2016, 11:54:34 PM »
Tim, what density of wood did you get to build the new stabilizer from?   ???

Howard, could we just agree to the use of the term "grunt", as most motorcyclists do?   y1 Steve
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Re: Legacy Build
« Reply #199 on: February 18, 2016, 12:59:30 AM »
  • Weight of elevator half core with perimeter: 0.22oz
  • Weight of elevator half core + skins: 0.46oz
  • Weight of elevator half freshly glued with Sig Bond: 0.63oz
  • Estimated weight after more thorough drying: 0.53oz


Tim,
Your weight on the elevators is high. Bad place in the plane for that.
I just made two new HT assemblies and the elevators were sanded from 3/8 sheet and weigh around 10 grams each.  You should be able to match that!

Throw those heavy ones away and make some light ones.


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