AMA Coverage in the event of a lawsuit

[Mike Griffin]

I would like for someone who is knowledgable on AMA coverage to explain what benefit it is to belong to AMA in case of a lawsuit.  Most all contests that are held require that the Pilot be a member of AMA and I am sure that is a CYA reason but I want to lay out a scenario here and have someone who is knowledgable in the insurance benefits from AMA to please explain it.

Lets just imagine that you are a contestant in a contest that is being held in a city park somewhere and somehow a plane gets loose and flies into the crowd and the prop tears someone up bad enough that they are rushed to the hospital.  Later a law suit for several millions of dollars is filed against the owner of the model, the club sponsering the contest and the city and that is how it usually goes when these types of suits are fiied.

What does the AMA do in relation to this suit?  Are they going to provide lawyers to fight it and represent you?  What actions will the AMA take to protect the individual, the club and the City....

Thanks

Mike

[Larry Borden]

Good question, Mike.
If I might tell how NHRA handled a lawsuit against my wife and me, plus a track, plus NHRA.
I drove/owned a Super Comp dragster,  8.90 second index. Long story short, a track worker walked behind me as I was backing up from my burnout. I struck the guy with my right rear slick.
Guy had a broken leg. A year later, on Christmas Eve, we received the lawsuit papers.
NHRA provided all legal representation and the only cost to us was a couple of nights in a hotel for the deposition and the mediation.
After that, I sang the praises of the NHRA and never griped about paying my 65.00 yearly dues.

I would hope AMA would do the same thing.
But, I would like to know also.

[peabody]

Years ago (when the AMA was in the DC area) a lawyer sifted through the various coverage's...his conclusion was that there was a LOT more coverage than advertised.
I imagine that it is pretty much the same today.
A lawyer would have to study the current coverage, because of overlaps and self insurance levels.
I know of two claims filed....both were paid fully and promptly....similar to Larry's NHRA deal...

I doubt that anyone at the AMA knows the limits or current policies regarding claims.

[James_Mynes]

I doubt that anyone at the AMA knows the limits or current policies regarding claims.

Now there's a scary thought.

[Steve Helmick]

We had a serious accident here in Seattle, when the NW Regionals were CL, RC and wee bit of FF, held at Sand Point NAS. Many of my friends were involved. The CD, ED, entrant, the builder of the model (who wasn't the flier, and also wasn't present or aware of the fact that his model was being flown), and I believe a bunch of the manufacturers of the various parts of the airplane were named in the suit. When in doubt, sue everybody possible. I believe AMA had a lawyer in court, to cover the butts of all the people I knew. The one that was most concerned was the ED, because he was not an AMA member, being in college and not flying at the time. Never flew again, either, and after that trauma, I can see why.

Always remember that AMA is secondary insurance. That means that they're backup for your homeowners or renters insurance. If your club is a Chartered Club, there is additional insurance coverage included, but also every member has to be an AMA member, which isn't easy to keep track of or enforce. If your host (city park or airport) wants site insurance, AMA can provide that pretty inexpensively...best if for a whole year at a time (about $60 per site), but can add for a sanctioned event for less. You can get accurate and up to date info on this on the AMA website, of course.    Steve

[Paul Smith]

Unfortunately, there are always limits of how much insurance you can buy.
There is no limit, no limit whatsoever, as to how much a "victim" can sue for.
So you can never have enough insurance.

Somebody who has been insulted, traumatized, or had his sensitivities disrespected, can sue for millions, billions, or even trillions.  there is no need for death, injury, or disfigurement.  As long as we have WAAAAY too many lawyers, we'll all get sued all the time.

[Mike Scholtes]

To bring this back down to earth:

1. You can be sure the AMA has people intimately familiar with insurance issues and the extent of coverage. If you doubt that, call the AMA president and ask.

2. The fact that AMA insurance may be "secondary" to some other policy does not make it illusory or limit the coverage. Layered insurance is commonplace and it is normal to have multiple carriers participate in defending a claim. Policies work in conjunction with each other to provide coverage for different types of claims.

3. There are indeed limits on all manner of claims, both statutory and common law. There is the ultimate "limit" if you will that a judgment must be rendered by a jury of ordinary people after hearing and considering all the evidence presented by skilled advocates for both sides. Unless a plaintiff's legal team can convince that jury that the defendant did something wrong, or is somehow culpable for the injury, the claimant loses. MOST injury claims are "defensed," meaning the plaintiff lost and got nothing.

4. Most claims are settled out of court, about 90%, usually after extensive exchange of information and legal argument by the attorneys. Once the facts become clear, if liability is even possible on the part of an insured party, the carrier is obligated by law to offer to pay on the claim, up to policy limits. The carrier is required by law to offer policy limits to protect the insured. Often multiple carriers contribute to a settlement.

[Tim Wescott]

You could email the AMA and ask.  Try Ilona Maine: ilonam@modelaircraft.org.  I had a question come up recently with our club insurance, and she was very helpful and seemed very knowledgeable.

As far as "too many lawyers" goes -- as long as you want to have the right to sue some jackass for doing something stupid and/or malicious and injurious to you, you have to put up with that same jackass being able to sue you for something he/she perceives as being injurious to them (or, at least perceives as being a main chance).  And the lawyers know full well that most businesses (or their insurance) will pay a bit of blood money just to avoid the expense of proving -- at length -- that they don't owe anything.

[Mike Keville]

<chuckle>...Looks like the Debate Section has sprung-up again. 

[Randy Cuberly]

<chuckle>...Looks like the Debate Section has sprung-up again. 

Mike...You're a born trouble maker...      

Are you a secret relative of mine?

Randy Cuberly

[Tim Wescott]

<chuckle>...Looks like the Debate Section has sprung-up again. 

If I recall correctly, Robert created the debate section to get the debates out of the open forum.  He could always recreate the Debate Section, give none of us rights to post to it, and move conversations to it as he sees fit.

[phil c]

There are three types of insurance involved.   Your homeowners/personal liability insurance is first, for you.  Most people have something like $300,000/100,000.
Secondary insurance is through your AMA membership- up to $2.5 million additional.
Thirdly, any sanctioned contest has primary coverage for the site owner, $2.5million, through the sanction.  For non-sanctioned club events most clubs get similar primary coverage for the site owner through the club registration.

You can look up information from the insurance program in the members only  tab on the AMA website modelaircraft.org.
By far and away the largest cost to AMA is the insurance, nearly $1.8 million in premiums, costs, lawyers, and pay outs.  There is some info on payouts  which for the most part seem to run up to $25,000 or so in medical costs and other payouts for other damages in lesser amounts.


If something does happen, call 911, take names and info, and get in touch with the AMA as soon as possible.  As the airlines have found, fast, helpful response to accidents pays dividends.

[JoeJust]

One suggested item for those seeking office with the AMA is (and I don't have the exact phrasing here) " a knowledge in Insurance matters is desirable".  Interesting.
Joe

[Dick Pacini]

In my opinion, AMA dues is worth every penny if for nothing else than the insurance.  It is cheap.  Toss the magazine and the bumper stickers in the trash, and ignore the lobbying done in the membership's behalf, if you so desire.  If you fly any model aircraft, you owe it yourself and your family to be a member with the security of AMA insurance.  

[Mike Keville]

In my opinion, AMA dues is worth every penny if for nothing else than the insurance.....  

===================================================
Once again: their coverage is SECONDARY, after your Homeowners or Rental policy.

[Mike Griffin]

OK, I am going to re enter the conversation here.  I did not pose this question/scenario to platform a debate.  I proposed to get an answer to a question.  I will ask it again. If a member of AMA is involved in a lawsuit because his or her model airplane causes physical harm to an onlooker and that onlooker ends up suing everyone up and down the line who was involved and having anything to do with that model and incident, what good is being a member of AMA?  There are thousands of members who pay their 50-$60.00 a year because they are told that they "have to be a member" if they fly in contests or join a club.  OK...for being a member what do you receive in return in case a scenario like I proposed happens?  I do not mind paying dues to an organization if in return i receive some sort of benefit for being a member.  The magazine just out and out sucks if you are a control line hobbyist and I am never going to buy a quadcopter.  I sometimes feel we are being held hostage by an organazation that has sold us on the idea that they will fight for us and protect us if something bad happens.  No, I dont really think so...I think you would be pretty much on your own if you become a victim of litigation like the scenario I proposed. 

Mike

[Dick Pacini]

===================================================
Once again: their coverage is SECONDARY, after your Homeowners or Rental policy.

Yes, Mike, I am fully aware of that.  That doesn't invalidate my statement.  Have you ever researched the coverage on your HO policy if you injure someone with your plane?

[Dick Pacini]

OK, I am going to re enter the conversation here.  I did not pose this question/scenario to platform a debate.  I proposed to get an answer to a question.  I will ask it again. If a member of AMA is involved in a lawsuit because his or her model airplane causes physical harm to an onlooker and that onlooker ends up suing everyone up and down the line who was involved and having anything to do with that model and incident, what good is being a member of AMA?  There are thousands of members who pay their 50-$60.00 a year because they are told that they "have to be a member" if they fly in contests or join a club.  OK...for being a member what do you receive in return in case a scenario like I proposed happens?  I do not mind paying dues to an organization if in return i receive some sort of benefit for being a member.  The magazine just out and out sucks if you are a control line hobbyist and I am never going to buy a quadcopter.  I sometimes feel we are being held hostage by an organazation that has sold us on the idea that they will fight for us and protect us if something bad happens.  No, I dont really think so...I think you would be pretty much on your own if you become a victim of litigation like the scenario I proposed. 

Mike

Mike, do YOU know the limit on AMA insurance?  How can you say it is no good being a member?

[GonzoBonzo]

Right from the AMA front page:

Member Insurance Benefit
$2.5 Million Liability Umbrella
$25,000 Medical Coverage
$1,000 Fire and Theft Coverage


Seems like a good deal to me.

[GonzoBonzo]

Didn't know about the theft.  Has anyone collected on this?  I remember reading one of Randy's posts about leaving a plane at the flying site, only to return to find it missing.

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Dick

The reason I proposed this scenario, which could happen, was because I did not know the answer and was hoping someone would.  I think the incident Steve talked about in Seattle was what I was looking for.  I honestly think most of us just pay our membership dues without thinking about what type of support we will receive in return should we find ourselves in the center of a situation like this.

Mike

[Paul Wood]

Didn't know about the theft.  Has anyone collected on this?  I remember reading one of Randy's posts about leaving a plane at the flying site, only to return to find it missing.

Yes. I know of two thefts in our area where proper documentation was provided to the AMA. They paid promptly without any questions.

[Dick Pacini]

I believe the Park Pilot membership is only covered by $500,000.

[Mike Scholtes]

In an attempt to answer Mike G's question directly, and not to add fuel to a debate:

If you are operating a model and it injures someone or causes property damage the person who suffered the loss can file a legal action against you and anyone else who was a "legal cause" of the injury. The rules vary from state to state but the basic principles are similar throughout the US. The injured person will assert that you were somehow "negligent" in causing the injury, meaning your conduct fell below the standard of care that society expects of everyone. It could also be alleged that your activity was "ultra hazardous" (like keeping a Bengal tiger in your yard) and that a "strict liability" standard should apply, not a negligence standard. If you are flying a quarter-scale RC jet with a 500 mph speed capacity, that could be ultra hazardous, arguably. I don't see anything except routine "negligence" being raised in a claim involving tethered models with a 55 mph speed range.

Belonging to the AMA or having insurance does not prevent you being sued. Instead it provides for attorneys and claims adjusters to defend you and pay any settlement or judgment within policy limits. There is always the potential for a beyond-limits judgment if your model maims a rising star hedge fund manager who suffers a billion-dollar loss of income, but unless you are flying on Wall Street that's not likely. You have to decide for yourself how much insurance is "enough" and that depends on the laws of a particular state. I am in California and I regard the AMA limits as adequate, so that says something.

[Mike Griffin]

OK Mike, that is a good answer and what I was looking for.  If I need anything else I will do what Ty sugessted and call them myself.  I appreciate the straightforward answer Mike.   I hope I never find myself in that type of situation but it is good to know that AMA will have our back in case they are needed.  I have nothing against the orgnization at all, I just wanted to know what the memmbership bought us in case of an  incident that ended up in court.  I appreciate everyones input into this thread.

Mike

[Dick Pacini]

Mike Griffin, are you or were you ever an AMA member?  The insurance and liability limits (I believe) are mentioned in the membership packet.

[Mike Griffin]

Dick I joined in 2000 I think, when I got back in to control line.  I flew control line in the 60's when I was in high school and quit after that until 15 years ago.  Honestly, I had never heard of AMA until I started flying again after all those years .

Mike

[Steve Helmick]

Same here, Mike. When we flew models (CL, FF & R/C) in the '50's, we didn't belong to AMA, and I don't think we knew how to join AMA. Certainly didn't have the $ to join, even at low Jr/Sr rates. If we'd had an accident, our parent's homeowner's insurance would have been called upon. I'm not sure there even was such a thing as "renter's insurance" in those days. I would expect homeowner's insurance to either just settle or send their lawyer if it got to court, depending on severity of damage.

We had to join WAM the year we lived at Edwards AFB, but I'm not sure if both my brother and I joined or just one of us. First time encounter with a real club with a regular flying site. When I flew in my first contest (here in the NW), as a HS Senior, I had to join AMA. Pretty much been a member ever since. Still have my original number...4 digits for some reason I have never figured out.  Steve