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Author Topic: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?  (Read 40685 times)

Offline frank mccune

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Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« on: December 28, 2014, 06:09:25 PM »
     Hi:

     I spent some time reading the instructions for the Brodak ARK Oriental and all of the wood joints are to be joined via a thin ca adhesive.  Is this stuff the best choice for joining all of the wood joints.  Perhaps an epoxy would be a better choice.

     Anybody hae a better idea of what would make a stronger construction rather than thin ca adhesive?

      I just can not get my head around this stuff being the final answer for airplane construction  Perhaps I am living in the past! Would it be a good choice to go over the ca joint with some other type of adhesive like a good wood glue or epoxy?

     Thoughts about the ca adhesive?

                                                                                         Tia,

                                                                                         Frank

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2014, 10:25:17 PM »
I'm working on an ARF Oriental too. When I get to the point of gluing it together, it's going to be epoxy. Tonight I finished slotting and recessing the flaps and gluing the pin hinges in with epoxy. I ran a thin smear of epoxy along the flaps' LE where the Monokote seam is so it will hopefully stay on. The flap TE needs the same treatment. Clear packing tape works, but I figured the glue would be more permanent. I hear of the covering starting to come off right from the start, especially where the seam on the wing's LE is. That's a dumb place for a seam. I'll probably use tape there.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
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while you're doing it!

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Offline Leester

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 10:08:07 AM »
Thin C/A is more than satisfactory for putting the kit together. I do use epoxy on hinges , motor mounts and glueing up ply doublers but for a wood to wood joint C/A is the way to go. Several cautions : use just enough to glue the joint and watch out for it wicking onto other pieces you don't want glued especially your fingers !!  LL~ LL~  As a test take 2 pieces of balsa and join with C/A after it kicks off TRY to pull them apart !!! also C/A keeps better refridgerated also if thin C/A doesn't kick off immediately and you have to use kicker then it's to old..
Leester
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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 10:28:17 AM »
I just glued my oriental wing in yesterday and went with epoxy. I have read other posts on here about the wing coming loose in Orientals, along with landing gear. Now I used ca on my arc cardinal but it had a super tight wood to wood joint at the cut out, and i hit the ground nose first with it and the wing fuse joint was un harmed. Mine was an ARC so there was no covering to remove before gluing in the wing. On the oriental there is covering to remove which I do with a soldering iron. It melts the covering to an exact line and removes easily. When it came time to glue the wing in I just couldn't bring myself to use CA on such a small contact area as compared to the cardinal (profile). Also if you have everything perfect with alignment and start using CA and bump somethng out it is stuck where it ends up. I like the way i can adjust and check and move stuff with epoxy. Not saying CA wont work...I have just found I like CA on profiles and epoxy on full fuse ships. And yes CA will run onto places it shouldn't if not careful. Of course so will epoxy but denatured alcohol and Q tips wipes it right off...not so with CA..well not in my experiences anyway.

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 05:48:42 PM »
      Hi:

      Thanks for the replies!

      Rusty, I have been to Columbia three times in my life, Ft. Jackson, and each time the temps were in the three digits!!!!!!! The last time I was there, the Fort was shut down for activities that day due to excessive heat! Lol

                                                                 Stay well my friends,

                                                                 Frank



 

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2014, 09:26:42 PM »
      Hi:

      Thanks for the replies!

      Rusty, I have been to Columbia three times in my life, Ft. Jackson, and each time the temps were in the three digits!!!!!!! The last time I was there, the Fort was shut down for activities that day due to excessive heat! Lol

                                                                 Stay well my friends,

                                                                 Frank



 
Haha, Frank, I hear that same thing from time to time. We have some sweltering days flying out there. It's at an LZ on Wildcat Rd., way out in the sticks. Luckily there's always at least a 10 mph wind to help dehydrate us. And it keeps the RC guys away, they won't fly in the wind. Me and Wayne Robinson are the only CL members and we use the main runway.

Chris's idea for removing the monokote is a good one. I've used a hot exacto blade, but I understand on ARFs like this(my first ARF), be very careful not to scribe the slightest line into the balsa. Especially on the stab, or it will break off sooner than later. I plan to put 1/4" balsa filets under my stab. I am also going to split the fuse apart at the tail end and widen it with a vertical square balsa dowel to widen the space inside for a ball link and easy access.
Learning as I go. Good thread, a bunch of Oriental builds going on.

Here are some pictures if that's okay with you Frank.
Rusty

Recesses and slots for the flap pin hinges. I smeared a bead of glue all along the monokote seam between the hinges.


On the wing, I just made slight pockets in the existing slits, carefully with an emery board.

DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

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Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2015, 05:45:13 PM »
I put a strip of clear tape along the trail edge to hold the seam in the covering together, and then glued the flaps in place. I decided to test fit the wing, and it doesn't come close to matching the contour of the cutout in the fuselage, so I guess I'll put some sawdust filler in the epoxy when I glue it in place. It also doesn't want to sit straight at right angles to the fuselage, so some shaping will be needed. I hope people who aren't experienced builders don't expect it to just fall together.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2015, 05:58:15 PM »
Frank, is it okay with you if I post about my Oriental assembly in your thread? I figure since you and Chris Belcher and I are all building them at the same time, it would be good to share things we either learn or get stumped on.

As I mentioned, I found the raised center sheeting that the fuselage keys onto is crooked. I am trying to re-shape the crooked center section to hold the wing straight. Keyed in place like it is, the outboard wing diverges from perpendicular enough to be more than an inch aft at the tip. That's 2" total that the wingtips are out of place related to each other. Two freakin' inches. If I'd known sooner I would have called Brodak and gotten a replacement wing. Whatever I do, I'm going to build it up higher so there is more surface area to epoxy to between the wing and the insides of the fuse.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2015, 10:55:19 AM »
My wing went in with just a little sanding to the edges of the raised area of center sheeting...suprised really. Had to tilt the front (LE)  down just a fraction to get 0 incidence. Everyhting else was within 1/16" of square. Even the stab went in at 0 incidence, and that 's after i split the tail post to widen the area for Tom Morris adjustable controls...(or maybe its BECAUSE i split the post ;)
 The other thing I had to do was relieve one of the fuse formers for the flap horn...had to disect it actually and engineer a brace to replace. Oh and lots of "relieving" in the ribs for the 4" belcrnank and leadouts. I also put a piece of brass tubing in the fuse pointed down at the flap horn to squirt graphite powder in there as needed. This makes already smooth controls really really smooth! When i first installed the controls they were a little tight feeling..couple of squirts of graphite and voila...like owl poo...

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2015, 11:19:00 AM »
I had to relieve that same former. Then I ran a bead of CA along the top of it to harden it. Check the bottom cap to make sure it clears the flap horn too. My flaps work freely with the pin hinges. I put a little spray silicone lube on all the moving parts. I hadn't thought of making a lube tube lol. Good idea.

I still haven't gotten the wing aligned, it's going to need some new wood. Hope to get past that today. I'll get an incidence line marked on the fuse before I continue.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 10:57:54 AM »
Another weird thing on this model is the balance. I am using a Brodak 40 with stock muffler and had to add 2 ozs of weight to the tail end and still a little nose heavy. I made an adjustable "weight box" back there so no trouble to add more but i suppose the model was originally designed for a Fox 35 and no muffler probably...don't know as I am a relative youngster in the stunt world. I am more into the era of the Genesis,Stilletto, Forerunner, and later stuff. I can't build kits right now as i am in an apartment a little bigger than the kitchen was in the house I moved out of! So I build all arfs/arcs right now. This one went together nicely and the wing was really straight and true. Hope it flies well..all I have left is taping the hinge lines and then sealing the edges of the covering. I go over every seam with minwax polyurethane on a Q tip (cant remember exactly what its called right now but i got the idea off this forum and it works really really well.).... Just a light coat over every seam and it does help hold the covering on...especially when cleaning the model after a session...that's when i notice problems...the papertowels will lift the edges if not sealed down...

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 12:08:33 PM »
Chris, I was told to expect to add at least two ounces in the tail. That was someone who has build a lot of Brodak ARFs including several Orientals. You're right, it was designed for a Fox .35. I used clear packing tape to seal the covering on the LE and TE of the wing. When I was gluing the pin hinges, I just smeared some of the epoxy on the flap's LE. I haven't sealed the flap TE yet. Today I split the rear end block of fuselage to widen it, making room for a ball link and weights. I haven't glued the wing on yet, but will probably do it tonight.

I made some retainer loops for the flap horn, so it won't stress out the two innermost hinges, especially if it flexes or its motion happens to be slightly elliptical. Here's a picture of that.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2015, 01:28:11 PM »
I forgot this plane had metric parts until I tried to screw a 4-40 lock nut onto the elevator end of my pushrod. Neither it nor the ball link will screw onto it, so now Plan B. Other Oriental builders I know had a different setup with just a bent rod at the tail end. The threaded clevis looks pretty wimpy. Is that what you guys are using?
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline Gary Frost

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 12:22:50 PM »
I see I have done things backwards--I completed the Oriental ARF, and then I read these threads!  Lotsa fun installing Morris controls in a covered wing.  I did so because of the extra large holes in the horns, the crimp on the lead out wires, and no tubing in bellcrank to event wear.
My fuse snapped in the raised section of the wing well-before I installed the flap pushrod.  Had trouble mounting wing after the pushrods were in place--did not catch the bind until after the Elmer's glue had dried.  Then I discovered the former interference.  Disected  fuse to fix.

Surprised to learn wings have come off other planes.  Now that my plane is built, how can I reinforce the wing to fuse joint?

Thanks, Gary Frost

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 02:28:15 PM »
Gary, I've heard of covering coming off the wings in flight but not actually the wing itself. If you're worried about its strength, you could cut some covering away around the wing root and make a filet, maybe with epoxy and some filler to help shape it.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2015, 09:47:41 AM »
Mine's done! Went and flew it yesterday and WOW!! Full patern on the second flight! Grooves better than any of my other planes and is an absolute pleasure to fly. Started it up with 3 ozs of fuel for first flight...did a wingover, loops inside and out, figure 8, inverted and quit so not to run out of fuel. Engine ran perfectly so second flight was full pattern, staying a little high you know. I think I just squirreled out and got the bench trim just right on this one...trust me, other planes have required lots of work to get to where this one is already. So here is the set up...not guaranteed but what worked for me.
CG (this is sensitive on this plane I have heard)  1 7/8" back from LE at the fuse and just slightly nose heavy there...just like the book says. Took 1 1/4 oz of lead in the ass to get there.
Lead outs (center) at 3/4 behind CG.
1 1/4 oz tip weight BUT I use spectra lines so adjust up for steel cables.
Engine:Brodak 40 with 290 venturi and stock muffler
5 oz ATF tank (as the brodak does use some fuel)
uniflow with muffler pressure
BYO 10 5 prop but will play around here, though the first flights, 5 in all,. were really good
HANDLE!!!! THIS IS IMPORTANT I used a hard point set as wide as it would go...like all of 4" because of the 4" bellcrank...I have heard others had trouble with not enough control input. Now this did take bigger inputs than my cardinal or nobler with narrower spacing but not that much. I'm glad I set the spacing as wide as it would go though. Of course all of this is "at your own risk" this is just what worked for me.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2015, 03:52:04 PM »
That's great Chris, thanks for reporting on it.
I put a 3" bellcrank in mine, so it won't require such wide spacing. It's coming along pretty well now so I hope I can post as good of a report as yours. I'll be using a OS 40fp. I hope my 4oz tank will work, it's the one recommended in the booklet.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline Gary Frost

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2015, 04:36:53 PM »
Rusty-thanks for your fillet suggestion.
Looking at your pix, it looks like you used the stock flap pushrod, and stock control horn.  Did you have any excess slop?  The holes in my horn were 1/8 inch.

Thanks, gary

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2015, 07:23:39 PM »
Gary, I did use the stock controls on the flaps. Both pushrods fit the flap horn holes perfectly with no slop. I lubed them with a little silicon spray. However the kit supplied clevis pin is 1/16" and is sloppy in the elevator horn. I had planned to use a ball link, but with the bolt and nut, there's not enough room, even after I slit the fuse tail and spread it with a 3/8" square dowel. I couldn't find a piece of brass tube the right ID and OD to bush the hole with. I did find an aluminum tube that fits, but that will probably wear out too quickly. What do you think, is it okay to use an aluminum bushing? But I might just go with the sloppy clevis anyway. It's a metric thread so I can't put a Sullivan clevis on unless I make another rod with a 4-40 threaded coupler. That will be the only slop in the system, so I've about decided to use the kit clevis. I will have an access door for the clevis and weight box.

My metric threaded control rod


My flaps have Dubro pin hinges and are friction free. I'm really happy with them, they fall to full deflection under their own weight. However I got lazy and installed the CA hinges in the stab and am not happy with their stiffness. I've never used them before so decided to give them a try. If I change my mind, I'll slice them free and either install pin hinges or sewn hinges. I've had good performance from sewn hinges on many planes. Look at the retainer I put around the flap horn. This will reduce the load on the first hinge. Not only load from air pressure but the rotation of the axle is a bit elliptical. Seemed like a good idea to me.

Retainers on the flap horn axle


I'm just taking my time and getting it as sturdy as I can. I want this to be my contest plane for May in Triple Tree & Huntersville, and hopefully beyond. I'm getting to where building is hard on my creaky joints and I'm sure as hell not ready to stop having fun, so I pace myself... and try out my first ARF.

I hope you have a great time with yours... what color is it? I always wanted a Red one, but ended up with yeller.

Hopefully tomorrow I can post another report. It'll be looking like an airplane soon.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2015, 06:02:29 PM »
Rusty,

Looks like you have the HDWE under control.

Where are you getting those metric pushrod ends?

I use only Tom Morris ends at 4-40.

I'd like to see a photo of your model.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2015, 06:13:26 PM »
Rusty,

Looks like you have the HDWE under control.

Where are you getting those metric pushrod ends?

I use only Tom Morris ends at 4-40.

I'd like to see a photo of your model.

HDWE, yeah, I didn't go overboard, but enough for a good trustworthy plane.

They're the ones that came in the box from Brodak.

Till now I've always made my own ends with brass rings for barbs.

When it doesn't look like a pile of bits anymore, I'll take a picture.
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2015, 06:16:31 PM »
Hey Frank, how's the Oriental going?
Thanks for letting us blather on about our planes in your thread.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 11:33:47 AM »
Sad news...my oriental already has a problem. the outboard stab cracked right at the fuse joint. A fellow flier saw it wobbling while another was holding and called off the launch or.... This area looked really weak to me while building and I have read other threads where this was an issue. i wish I had follwed my instincts and strengthened the area before i flew. Now i have repairs to do..could have been worse...thanks to John Bender for catching before launch! And shame on me for not doing a pre flight check...something that gets overlooked a lot by most i bet. I know they're just models but real craft get yanked and tugged on before take off. I will yank and tug more form now on!!!

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2015, 12:30:03 PM »
Chris, I've been warned that you have to put a balsa filet. like triangular stock, under the stab or it will break. The wood is too light and it usually gets slightly scored when using a razor to cut the monokote off where you glue it to the fuse. Luckily it's an easy fix. I'm using a sharp edged soldering iron to cut my monokote hoping to avoid creating weak areas.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2015, 03:38:17 PM »
I did use a soldering iron to remove the covering too...may have "burned" into the wood a bit I suppose. I reglued and added filets and flew last night and it held well. Still a great flying plane..just needs some beefing up in this area I guess. BTW...i also beefed up the landing gear mounts in mine with blocks and blind nuts along with the three wood screws that were obviously not enough for grass fields....or hard bounces. Wish I had gone with CF now that i know how good the plane flies.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2015, 04:09:10 PM »
Yeah I'm planning to beef up the landing gear support too. Fiberglass, plywood and epoxy. Definitely blind nuts. Mine is moving slow, I hope to get on a roll and finish it up soon. The model fairies obviously aren't working on it while I sleep. Glad you got her back in the air.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2015, 08:38:22 AM »
    Hi;

    Thanks for all of the information.  I have not started mine yet but maybe next Winter.  I am planning to use a HP .40 in mine. 

                                                                                            Stay well my friends,

                                                                                            Frank McCune

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Brodak ARF Oriental and the use of THIN ca adhesive?
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2015, 09:42:07 AM »
I've been flying mine. I can do a much better pattern with it than I've ever been able to do with any other plane.
I didn't like the cartoonish dragon decals so I made some other ones and my lettering too, with MS Word Art. And a Jet pilot I found on the runway at our field about a year ago. An FP40 with a tongue muffler and an APC 10.5 x 4.5 prop does the trick.

I need to get a pic with it's cool black and silver spinner. It's going to compete at Huntersville next weekend.





DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com


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