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Author Topic: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated  (Read 3841 times)

Mike Griffin

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Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« on: December 16, 2014, 09:48:55 AM »
Like most of you, I have probably tried about every glue out there at one time or another in building flying models but several years ago, I developed a real appreciation for plain old white Elmers glue.

I had participated in the contest in Alabama, which I do not think they hold anymore, and Tom Morris, the tall slim Southern gentleman, invited me to spend a couple of days with him at his house in Anniston.  Tom and his wife were most gracious hosts and I had the opportunity to learn more about proper building in two days than I had In Years of struggling on my own.

Of the many things I learned, Tom's use of Elmers glue amazed me the most.  He used it in 99% of his applications.  He actually glued a wing in a profile fuselage and tried to rip it out and the force he had to use to rip it out destroyed the wing and broke the profile fuselage.  Together we built a profile Cavalier with a Mellineum wing and used nothing but Elmers.

It is cheap, non toxic and cleans up with water.  I now buy it by the gallon.  One note of caution, since it is water based, be careful not to overdo it and warp your part in the drying process.  There is a proper way to apply it.

Mike

Offline Motorman

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 10:53:50 AM »
How do you apply it properly?

How is white glue different from elmers wood glue?


MM

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 11:00:19 AM »
How do you apply it properly?

How is white glue different from elmers wood glue?


MM

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2014, 11:14:27 AM »
How do you apply it properly?

Be careful about using it for laminating sheets, e.g. for laminating plywood to the nose of a profile, or for doublers on a normal fuse.  You can do it, but you want to weight everything down on a flat board for at least a day.

How is white glue different from elmers wood glue?

Wood glue is a hair stronger.  I prefer Sig Bond (which is, I'm told, just Tite Bond II), but I probably don't need to.

Here's a good discussion of the glue choices.  It leaves out cellulose glue (Ambroid, Sig-ment), but I think it covers everything else you might use in a model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_glue.
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Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 11:28:08 AM »
For laminating, weighting down really isn't enough, at least with the weights I have tried.  Clamping between hard, flat surfaces works well.  As far as strength, try a test piece - the glue is far stronger than balsa. 
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 11:33:50 AM »
I have some 1" thick, 8" diameter steel disks that I picked up at the scrap yard, plus various bottle jacks, car parts, and other miscellaneous heavy junk that I pile on top of that.  I probably put on up to 40-80 lbs/square foot.

It's a good reliable glue as long as you're not trying to span any kind of a gap.  I prefer to use epoxy for motor mounts and for laminating, but there's no reason you can't do fine with white or carpenter's glue.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Mike Griffin

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 12:44:28 PM »
Tim is exactly right.  If you are laminating two pieces of thin balsa together, you have to apply it sparingly and then either weight it down or clamp it.  Most people make the mistake of running a constant bead of the glue and then smearing it over the entire surface when gluing balsa to balsa... DONT DO THAT. Get you one of these 2 ounce plastic squeeze glue bottles that have like a 14 guage leur lock needle that just twists on to the top of the bottle and apply your glue in drops/dots about 3/8 to 1/2" apart over the entire surface then weight it down.  You can buy these glue bottles and needles from several sources on line.  I got mine from Mc Master-Carr if I remember correctly. 

If I can locate the pictures of these I will post in this thread.  CA and Expoxy are great products and have their uses but CA really burns my eyes and I hate the fumes plus what it does to my skin.  For Epoxy applications I have switched to West Systems 105 Resin and the 205 and 206 hardener.  For epoxy this stuff it the Mercedes of Epoxy.   

Anyway, I hope this might have helped in some way if you are playing around with different glues.  I can use Elmers White Glue for at least 90% of my building needs.

Mike

Offline Garf

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 12:57:33 PM »
Gorilla glue (polyurethane glue) works well for laminating if securely clamped. I built the fuselage for the stretched Galaxy laminating 1/8" balsa sheet to make a 3/8" thick fuselage. I also used it to glue the plywood doublers. After breaking the fuselage 4 times, there is no sign of delaminating.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 01:12:05 PM »
I use a lot of Elmer's Glue All in my plane construction.   Will not use it for laminating as it needs air for the water/liquid to evaporate.   Had a profile in which the lamination came apart after a crash and the glue was still we in the middle.   Gorilla Glue is what I recommend for laminations.  Be sure to protect surfaces with Parchment paper as the Gorilla Glue will find every hole in the balsa wood. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 01:46:39 PM »
Will not use it for laminating as it needs air for the water/liquid to evaporate.   Had a profile in which the lamination came apart after a crash and the glue was still we in the middle.

That makes it self repairing :).

When I laminate with water-based glue I let it dry for a good long time -- at least a week -- before I paint it.  To date, this seems to work well -- I have a couple of planes that have lasted for years after having been built this way.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 03:17:26 PM »
I'm with Tom and the other supporters on this.

When I was started high school, PVA adhesive was very new and my father was still using a hot pot of casein glue on his woodworking projects. My woodwork teacher planed up some timber strips, glued and cramped them together and left the piece until the lesson the next week. He then invited students to break the glue lines. Nobody could. The adhesive wets the timber and soaks in strengthening the timber so that the glue line is stronger than the surrounding timber.

Some years ago, I was lucky enough to be left with several litre bottles—about a US quart—of a PVA adhesive that was particularly high in solids—i.e. not much water.

I successfully made 2-ply balsa with 1/32" sheets left it weighted down for several weeks and it finished flat.

Like Tim, I leave nose doubler laminations for a long time and while I've destroyed several models built like this, the doublers have not delaminated.

The one place you don't use PVA is where you must sand through the glue line. The strength and flexibility of the glue line that is an advantage inside a wing is a disadvantage when you have to sand the glue line.

Preparing for the Ringmaster Fly-a-thon several years ago, I wanted to test a small tank that I assembled to give me a flight time of 3–4 minutes instead of the more usual 7–7 1/2 minutes.

A gust of wind came up and threw the model on the ground—the nose went bouncing across the field and the rest of the model was in five pieces held together by the pushrod and hinges. The breaks were pretty clean so I jigged it up on my WorkMate and simply glued it back together using exterior grade—not submersible—white carpenters' glue—a slightly more exotic blend than simple PVA—and it came out straight. I don't fly the model all that often but I reckon it's done something between 50 and 100 flights since the repair.

So long as your building techniques are suitable and you allow time for the adhesive to cure, the carpenters' adhesives are good stuff—in their place.

Deluxe Materials' Super 'Phatic is another adhesive to look at if you have problems with CA. It's thinner and doesn't cure instantly but it wicks into joints like CA and cleans up with water.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 03:24:08 PM »
Deluxe Materials' Super 'Phatic is another adhesive to look at if you have problems with CA. It's thinner and doesn't cure instantly but it wicks into joints like CA and cleans up with water.

At a guess, based mostly on the name, color, and water solubility, I'm guessing that Super 'phatic is some variation of carpenter's glue.  But I wouldn't want to bet on what they do with it.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline david beazley

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2014, 04:21:41 PM »
Get you one of these 2 ounce plastic squeeze glue bottles that have like a 14 guage leur lock needle that just twists on to the top of the bottle and apply your glue in drops/dots about 3/8 to 1/2" apart over the entire surface then weight it down.  You can buy these glue bottles and needles from several sources on line.  I got mine from Mc Master-Carr if I remember

Mike
I recently picked up a couple of these bottles at Hobby Lobby craft store.  They are called Fineline applicator bottles.  They are about 5 bucks each. They come in standard and fine.  The standard works with alphetIc glue perfectly.  The fine's tip is too small.  Also made in USA!
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2014, 08:54:51 PM »
Have used Elmer's but don't like the way it sands...rubbery. Prefer Sig-Bond. It is different than Tite-Bond II which I won't use because it sands like cement. The original Tite-Bond is OK but needs to be thinned a bit to soak into the wood fibers. Otherwise it remains on the surface and does not make a good bond. For laminating-Epoxy is still the way to go IMHO. Each to their own I guess. 8)
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014, 05:14:51 AM »
I use white Gorrilla Glue (the aliphatic, not the poly) and water it down by 10 to 20% (which makes for a better bond line - it soaks in instead of staying on the surface of the balsa.)  And Tom has it perfectly correct: use the little glue bottle and just "dot" the glue every 1/4th to 3/8th of an inch instead of a glue line.

Tom is amazing at developing "process."  As in the control systems he sells, he figures out the best way to do something and then continues to improve upon it.

Scott

Offline mccoy40

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2014, 07:13:53 AM »
I use thin white glue to attach my Silk Span to cover the solid surfaces. the warps have never appeared but I do stay vigilant when I do apply the silk span. I also use it to cover foam wings

I also use white glue when I attach wing sheeting to the leading edge of the wing - if there is a gap where the surfaces didn't bond I go over it with an Iron and the glue re-activates and the surfaces bond together

When I use White glue to attach doublers I use all of my Model Aviation magazines to weigh it down. 4 or 5 years of model Aviation is pretty heavy.   #^ #^
Joseph Meyer
Philadelphia, PA

Offline John Craig

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2014, 07:51:21 AM »
I am also fond of the white glues.  A that moment Weldbond is my favorite. Just finishing a pint bottle bought years ago.  Horrible to try to sand but has a good tack & strong bond. Easy to clean off my fingers.  No glued fingers to the project. Certainly not as much fun as chewing  Ambroid from your fingers.  I like the yellow glues & the yellow Sig glue but they generally set in the bottle before I have them completely used.


PVA Glues

Plain old white glue

PVA (Polyvinyl acetates) are probably the most common adhesive on the market. They come in a variety of formulas, all ever so slightly different, and specific to what they are designed to glue. Here are some tips for using Polyvinyl acetates.
◾All PVAs are designed to work on porous materials only
◾PVAs are water based, and clean up with warm soapy water.
◾PVA is only toxic to ingest, it does not emit any harmful fumes, and is not hazardous to touch
◾PVA sets best in good air circulation, at room temperature.
◾PVAs need pressure to adhere, see our info on clamping.
◾Most PVAs are not water proof. The yellow PVAs have a higher moisture resistance than the white ones, but neither are completely water proof.
◾Never allow your PVAs to freeze. This breaks down the polymers and your glue will be rendered useless!
◾Yellow PVAs have a shorter shelf life than white PVAs.
◾Be wary of over priced PVAs that claim to be for a specific use. There is very little difference from one PVA to the other, and nothing that should increase the cost.
◾Although PVA is not a gap filler, in some cases you can add sawdust to it to increase its gap filling ability.

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2014, 11:35:56 AM »
My wife bought some "Aleene's Tacky Glue" from Michaels.  It appears to be just a thick, sticky white glue.  I tested it on balsa and it holds just fine, stronger than the wood.  I used it to install gussets in a wing - you can put a thick line of the stuff on the gusset and press it in place and it will stay there.  It is handy for holding a small piece in place while it drys. 
Russell Shaffer
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 12:45:35 PM »
I am trying to get away from the eye-burning adhesives.  While it is pretty awesome to build and cover a wing the same day using CA, rarely is this necessary.

I have used a number of different glues.  The most important part is use an applicator that is appropriate for the job.  Most of the time the bottle is too big a nozzle. A cheap paint brush, like from children's watercolor kits, works rather well for some.  Others need an applicator bottle.

I don't like foaming glue such as Gorilla and Gorilla White polyurethane glues.  They DO have a place.  I had a sanding error on a LE and used Gorilla White and some wide tape to cover the glue in the divot.  The next day the divot matched the rest of the LE.  After paint I KNOW where it is and cannot find it!  I did not sand it.

My gallon of Elmer's wood glue is going bad.  It is sour smelling.  I have not thrown it away yet because it seems fine for regular woodworking.  Before it started going sour I built some with it, and it was OK. 

I like Tite Bond II better, which is pretty similar to Elmer's wood glue.  I do not like the new bottles, and miss the removable cap bottles.  Again use a different applicator!

Rose Art White glue came in a kit.  I used it and found it acceptable.  I do not like that it softens back up in high humidity.  Yellow glue such as Elmers Wood Glue and Tite Bond II do not act the same way.  After a waterproof finish is applied I doubt there will be a problem.

I have not actually used Elmer's white glue yet on a model airplane.

All 3 that I have used do not sand particularly well.  CA and epoxies also do not sand very well.  Cleaning up the glue while working prevents the need to sand glue.  Testor's wood and metal cement seem to sand best out of the lot I have experience with.

I'll stick to epoxy for motor mounts and lamination.  I have had moldy layups after letting them sit a week pressed under weights in the basement.  I think my basement was part of the problem (and has had a lot of water removal remedying done to it since then)

Phil

Offline George

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2014, 10:45:40 PM »
Remember that laminating balsa to plywood takes longer to dry than balsa to balsa because of the air barrier caused by the glue that holds the plywood's laminations together.

George
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Offline Curare

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2014, 02:40:32 AM »
Most of my building is done with PVA, (and if you look around there's some good info on using PVA and aliphatics). I have noticed a couple of things that are probably worth mentioning as an addition to John Craig's points.

When building built up structures like an stab, elevator or flap, the lure is to use Cyano's to hold the ribs in place. If you do, and you have massive splashes of CA everywhere, you can hang your hat on the fact that the PVA will not stick to those CA'd areas. Best to flat sand whatever you've built to remove the excess CA and expose as much pourous material to the pva if you're planning on sheeting whatever you've built.

PVA works great on foam, it doesn't attack it but it will seep into between the beads. The temptation is to slather it on, but you'll add weight for not much gain. Also, when gluing things like leading edge stock to a foam core, make sure that you're clean and tidy with your application. PVA while soft, doesn't sand like balsa, and you can end up with a 'rubbery' section that won't sand. It's like trying to sand foam rubber. Tight joints and no excess minimise this.

I'm not a fan of laminating stuff with PVA. Especially doublers in fuselages. Because PVA is an air-dry glue, you'll have the edges dry, and the core will stay wet for a long time (same with sigment too). Also because it's not fuel proof, you're running the risk of a delamination later on in the aircraft's life.

Oh, that acutally brings me to a final point (I know most of this is common knowledge, but someone may find interest in it). The best thing about using PVA's is it's flexibility. I once built a 3m (114") saiplane, using mostly CA. On a blustery day, we were winching it, and lowe and behold I broke the mainspar. The plane didn't just break, it EXPLODED, as all the brittle CA joints were shocked so much they just broke. I lost the entire wing between the wing joiner at the centre and the polyhedral break! I firmly beleive that if the wing had been built with PVA I may have got more back that just the wing tips.

Greg Kowalski
AUS 36694

George Hostler

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Re: Elmer's - Often overlooked and unappreciated
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2014, 06:54:14 AM »
When younger, I had an aversion to using white glue. My choices of glues were Ambroid, Testors, Comet, Sigment, Duco and etc. balsa wood glues. Now with more patience for drying, I'm using carpenter's glues (the cream colored stuff) where sanding is required and white glue when overall it is not. Of course, living where the average humidity is under 25% helps with the drying. These glues work fine for me, for gluing expanded foam.

CA is too expensive, doesn't always stick to building materials like it should (especially old balsa), and brittle. I hardly use it now. VD~


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