Author Topic: Palmetto contest cold starting (Read 8378 times)

bob whitney · « **on:** October 30, 2014, 07:45:56 AM »

just a reminder the weekend is going to be cold in the mornings so bring your Lighter Fluid to make starting easier in the mornings

WLGeorge · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2014, 08:39:35 AM »

Being from the southern end of Texas I don't have a clue what lighter fluid does. What does it do and what do you do with it?

Garf · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2014, 08:50:10 AM »

I went through this at an earlier KOI. Not fun. I fly in Miami and never dealt with near freezing temps before so I was not prepared for cold weather starting. It was rough.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:14:13 AM »

You should also probably bring your stunt kites for Saturday. The wind looks like it's better suited for kite flying than stunt.

I'll be there either way Saturday morning!

Motorman · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:33:22 AM »

Glow fuel doesn't vaporize below a certain temp about 45-50F so you prime the engine with naphtha to get it to fire. I mix in 10% ATF to give it some lube. After the flight I run off a couple of primes of this mixture to flush out the castor oil and coat the engine with ATF inside.

MM

WLGeorge · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:47:59 AM »

Thanks Mr. Motorman. It only occasionally gets that cold here. I usually go into hibernation at about 50 degrees or so. Actually we fly in the winter and build in the summer here. This just solved something that has puzzled me for years. I watched my uncle fly in Nebraska many years ago. He opened the hood of his 59 ford truck and put his plane in and gently closed the hood. When it was time to fly he took it out and cranked it up. Warmed it up I guess. For years I just thought he was nuts.

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2014, 11:39:19 AM »

Zippo fuel is something I would associate with temps below freezing. Heck, this years "Frozen" Nats saw morning temps in the upper 40s and nobody had trouble getting a start.

Too much lighter fluid can also wash out ALL the lubrication from your piston liner which is not good. Some guys were trying to start a PA-61 up at the Philly contest one time, and used lots of lighter fluid. You could hear the engine's squeak of protest from 100 feet away every time it turned over...

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2014, 12:52:25 PM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on October 30, 2014, 11:39:19 AM

Zippo fuel is something I would associate with temps below freezing. Heck, this years "Frozen" Nats saw morning temps in the upper 40s and nobody had trouble getting a start.

Too much lighter fluid can also wash out ALL the lubrication from your piston liner which is not good. Some guys were trying to start a PA-61 up at the Philly contest one time, and used lots of lighter fluid. You could hear the engine's squeak of protest from 100 feet away every time it turned over...

I would rather imagine that the "squeak of protest" you heard was due to the tightening at the top of the cylinder due to the taper there not lack of lubrication from washing the oil off anything. When anything highly volitile, lighter fluid in this case, is used on or in an engine, especially one that is already cold, the instant evaporation of a highly volatile fluid like naptha etc. pulls more heat from the cylinder and sleeve and shrinks it even more...hence the squeak you heard at the top of the stroke. This is common with ABC or AAC tapered sleeves. It is unlikely that it causes any permanent damage, because I've had it happen to all my PA's and ROJetts at one time or another with no problems afterwards.

Randy Cuberly

Richard Imhoff · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2014, 12:53:47 PM »

Keep the fuel warm and the motor starts like normal.
Flew many combat matches in 20 degree weather and if the fuel was warm the motors started. We kept the fuel in the warm cars or a cooler that had a heated brick in the bottom.
Combat in Chicago at the frozen finger in January.

James_Mynes · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2014, 01:28:56 PM »

We did a winter series of Formula GX (Speed Limit) Combat in Massachusetts several years back. For all I know they're still doing it. Just a quick spritz of WD-40 for a prime in the exhaust port and they fired right up no problem. Was it the oil? The propellant? I don't know. I just know it worked.

bob whitney · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2014, 02:39:11 PM »

the late great Allen Briickhous and charlie Reeves tought me about Zipo lighter fluid one cold morning at VSC.

u prime as usual which puts oil in the engine ,then give a good squirt of L/F in the venturi ,if an inverted engine flip it over so engine is uprite as not to fluid lock it as u are just worming it up .with fuel in the tank u will have plenty of lube

a lot of things work, this is just one of them,

WLGeorge · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2014, 02:49:30 PM »

WD 40 will Fire my old diesel tractor off better than anything else. Won't hardly start without it. Didn't know it would work on our engines. Learn something new every day. Most penetrating oils are somewhat kerosene based or close to it. Have soaked many parts in kerosene and it works very well as a penetrating oil. I don't know the exact chemical makeup of WD 40 but 40 years in an oil refinery says it's close enough. I know people will argue with this but i am mostly talking about the base stocks. I know we sold a lot of Kero type bases to folks to turn in to penetrating oil.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2014, 08:04:31 PM »

Quote from: WLGeorge on October 30, 2014, 08:39:35 AM

Being from the southern end of Texas I don't have a clue what lighter fluid does. What does it do and what do you do with it?

Jimi Hendrix would put it on his guitar and set it on fire.

Hope this helps.

John Kelly · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2014, 08:51:00 PM »

... JIMI HENDRIX!

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:07:47 PM »

I fly Cox .049 in the SNOW all the time, temperatures around 20F. I never had a problem starting... It is staying running that I used to struggle with. Believe it or not the little engine would cool off so much the glow head would go out! A couple turns of knitting yarn wrapped into the fins of the head solved that problem.

Now with bigger engines I do not know what to do for cold weather flying. Isn't Coleman fuel naptha? Yea, "white gas" or some such. I hear it added as a run extender, how about that for cold weather flying?

Phil

ps I run Sig Champion 25% in my Cox engines, it is kept in an unheated attached garage that usually stays about 40F till sub zero nights hit.

Phil

WLGeorge · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:09:17 PM »

Purple Haze. I remember some of it, the rest is sort of foggy in my mind. Dang, it's been 40 years?

RknRusty · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:12:41 PM »

Be sure and have a rag handy in case you start an external fire on or around your engine. Yeah I know, don't put Naptha anywhere besides In the engine, but... just sayin. Good practice.

Not related, but interesting; when flying 1/2As in the snow, I've seen guys wrap yarn into the cooling fins to help maintain heat during the run.
Rusty

EDIT: Phil beat me to the yarn story. He's probably the one I learned it from.

WLGeorge · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:12:47 PM »

Coleman fuel is like unleaded gas. A little lighter cut than Naptha I believe. I could be wrong because all this talk about Jimi Hendrix is causing some flashbacks. Not all of them pleasant.

RknRusty · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2014, 09:19:53 PM »

Ah George, Move over Rover. Let Jimi take over

[/threadjack]

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2014, 10:23:43 PM »

Coleman fuel is to extend the engine run in case you're short of laps due to cold weather or low density altitude. It also helps with starting, but Naphtha or Lighter Fluid (same thing) is just for starting.

I still have a tough time starting my piped .46VF, so started choking it (flipping through) about 6 times and then giving it a shot of lighter fluid in the venturi. It may actually bump then. Regardless, the electric finger incites it to make engine noises.

Steve

Russell Shaffer · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31, 2014, 07:27:08 AM »

2 ounces of Coleman fuel per quart will do wonders for cold starting. It's fine for sport flying but it messes with your engine tuning. The mileage will be considerably increased and the needle needs tweaking. You can't just dump it in and fly in a stunt contest. At least not if you expect a decent score.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2014, 11:30:37 AM »

Two ounces per quart equals, um, 2 x 4 = 8 oz per gallon. I believe the previous thread suggested a maximum of 4 oz. per gallon, based on info from Bob Emmett, via Dave Royer.

It should be made clear that while this is all well & good for that model with not enough tank capacity, it's really not a good way to save money. In general, your engine will be happier if your setup burns a lot of the appropriately formulated glowfuel, i.e., without Coleman fuel. More fuel burn means more open NV, more flow, less restriction for any little bits of junk in your fuel to hangup and make for a lean run. Perhaps a reason not to use low viscosity oil? Put in a bigger tank if you can.

Steve

peabody · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2014, 01:21:47 PM »

Is Bob going to squirt some on those electric motors?

EddyR · « **Reply #23 on:** November 01, 2014, 01:01:00 PM »

Today Saturday It was not very cold but very windy. To windy to fly. All events will be flown Sunday. Erric did fly my 20 yyear old All American.
Ed

Howard Rush · « **Reply #24 on:** November 01, 2014, 02:13:26 PM »

Quote from: EddyR on November 01, 2014, 01:01:00 PM

Erric did fly my 20 yyear old All American.

I can see you shivering.

Norm Faith Jr. · « **Reply #25 on:** November 01, 2014, 08:55:25 PM »

Quote from: bob whitney on October 30, 2014, 07:45:56 AM

just a reminder the weekend is going to be cold in the mornings so bring your Lighter Fluid to make starting easier in the mornings

Cold? In Florida?...We started this morning (Saturday) at the South Arkansas Stunt Championship, El Dorado, Arkansas...at 32 Degrees and light winds. O/T, Classic and Profile. Tomorrow's forecast is for the same, flying PA. Cold? In Florida?

Norm

Norm Faith Jr. · « **Reply #26 on:** November 02, 2014, 03:55:46 PM »

This is what our flying field looked like when I opened the gate this morning for today's competition. BTW, that's not "white grass." 31 degrees.

wwwarbird · « **Reply #27 on:** November 02, 2014, 05:35:25 PM »

How did it go today? Any photos?

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #28 on:** November 02, 2014, 05:56:46 PM »

Quote from: Norm Faith Jr. on November 02, 2014, 03:55:46 PM

This is what our flying field looked like when I opened the gate this morning for today's competition. BTW, that's not "white grass." 31 degrees.

The three years I lived in Florida it (1971, '72, and '73) was in Miami andBoca Raton and it never got that cold but I went to a motorcycle race in Tallahasse in January and it snowed!

Strange place Florida...of course so is Arizona where I live now. 17 degrees here two years ago at night and 76 the next day!

Any photos from Sunday at the contest?

Randy Cuberly

Norm Faith Jr. · « **Reply #29 on:** November 02, 2014, 06:06:59 PM »

Richard Oliver won Expert, Joe Gilbert 2nd and Jason Greer was third. Tom Farmer finished 4th and Don Cranfill had power plant issues. BTW Don Cranfill was the recipient of the perpetual "District VIII Profile Point Champion" trophy for 2014. Andy Stokey was awarded the perpetual "District VIII (over-all) Point Champion" trophy for 2014. There were plenty of pictures taken, so I'm sure they will be posted shortly. I'll try and get all the scores posted ASAP. We flew O/T, Classic, Unlimited Profile and PA.
Norm

Author Topic: Palmetto contest cold starting (Read 8378 times)

James_Mynes