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Author Topic: thunderbirds  (Read 5864 times)

Offline roger gebhart

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thunderbirds
« on: October 22, 2014, 04:30:27 PM »
 Just curious. What is the difference in the original thunderbird with upright engine and the thunderbird 1? Or any others for that matter. Thanks  rog

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 04:45:33 PM »
The '60 Nats winning Thunderbird is referred to as the (Veco) T-Bird II or the '59 Thunderbird (RSM's kit). There was a fair description of the changes in the '60 American Modeller Annual (IIRC)...but maybe '61 Annual, after Mr. Palmer won the '60 NATS with it. What a refreshing change from the Nobler clones of the '50's!

Basically wing area was added at the wing tips (blunter tips), the "razorback" was gone, the landing gear was changed to sheet aluminum, and at least the Veco kit had the infamous "differential flaps".   H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2014, 04:51:20 PM »
Size mostly, and minor cosmetic changes.  There's the upright engine early Veco kitted Thunderbird, then later Veco kitted the 610sq Thunderbird with inverted engine (Dumas and Aero Engineering kits are later but the same kit), then there's the RSM kit which is smaller than the others.  The RSM kit is not the same plane as any of the Veco kits.  There are a couple plans on http://outerzone.co.uk one for both the upright engine and round cowl version, and another that shows the later Veco/Dumas/Aero kit.  Pick a look you like and go with it.

Offline roger gebhart

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 05:34:01 PM »
I have been considering the thunderbird 1 Juan Valentin has offered in classified. It is a Richards kit and somewhere I have it in my mind he did the upright engine. Haven't been able to reach Juan through PM. That is the one I seem to like best. I have the outerzone plan and had considered a rib kit from RSM. The longer the confusion lasts the less I spend.   :-\

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 07:08:19 PM »
RSM's rib set probably won't match either of the outerzone plans.  Brodak kits the upright Thunderbird, and sells rib kits very reasonably, but either way you'll probably want to get the plans from the same manufacturer as the rib set so they're sure to match.

Offline Ron Cribbs

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 09:42:53 PM »
The Thunderbird II is an amazing plane. Excellent flier in the right hands.

At first I wasn't keen on the forward cockpit look, but it grew on me. This is a picure of Larry Oakley's Thunderbird in Wichita Kansas.

 Larry also has a profile version signed by Palmer.



Offline Dallas Hanna

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 12:21:57 AM »
The '60 Nats winning Thunderbird is referred to as the (Veco) T-Bird II or the '59 Thunderbird (RSM's kit). There was a fair description of the changes in the '60 American Modeller Annual (IIRC)...but maybe '61 Annual, after Mr. Palmer won the '60 NATS with it. What a refreshing change from the Nobler clones of the '50's!

Basically wing area was added at the wing tips (blunter tips), the "razorback" was gone, the landing gear was changed to sheet aluminum, and at least the Veco kit had the infamous "differential flaps".   H^^ Steve

Adding a bit here for the later Veco T-Bird Roger but doesn't answer your original Thunderbird question.   Built from the Outerzone plan download.

X2 on the differential flaps Steve!  During a "seniors moment" I decided to build a T-Bird II (Veco) to see if what Bob said about the differential flaps really did work.  Many of us built them in the 60s when they first came out and never read "the fine print" on the plan.  We built them as per kit and thought the differential flaps actually worked like the text said, but!!!!! .............. see text on plan about flaps, panels and tip weight.

I built my model to reflect the text with equal panels and differential flaps with 1/2oz tip weight.  Result.. model flew wing up upright and inverted the same amount.  It is now ok with 1 1/2 oz of tip weight.   The differential flaps did Sierra Foxtrot Apha to giving extra control feel with the setup described on the plan and any other mag of the day describing "the New Thunderbird".

HH

« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 02:53:16 AM by Dallas Hanna »

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 05:55:46 AM »
Pardon my unawareness, but what does "Sierra Foxtrot Apha" mean?  i googled it and found Stephen F Austin University and Saint Francis of Assisi and Southern foodways Alliance......

Offline Dallas Hanna

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 06:04:50 AM »
Pardon my unawareness, but what does "Sierra Foxtrot Apha" mean?  i googled it and found Stephen F Austin University and Saint Francis of Assisi and Southern foodways Alliance......

A nice explanation which should be sufficient is "Sweet Fanny Adams".  In normal language the differential flaps did nothing what so ever to better the flying characteristics of the T_Bird or any other model they are mounted on.   Sorry about the different countries slang expressions Scott!

HH

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2014, 06:25:31 AM »
Thanks Dallas!

Hey, will someone loan me their American/English - Australian/English dictionary so I can follow these threads?

Offline EddyR

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 07:01:55 AM »
The first Veco kit of the Thunderbird shows the upright motor in a speed cowl. I have many magazine pictures of Palmer and his Thunderbird and not one of them has the speed cowl. I think mine with the Speed cowl was in the 1988 Flying Models after I won the KOI advanced with it.
 I would like the Janet paint job.I saw this model and it was out standing.
 Both versions have very good airfoils.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 09:26:03 AM »
A nice explanation which should be sufficient is "Sweet Fanny Adams".  In normal language the differential flaps did nothing what so ever to better the flying characteristics of the T_Bird or any other model they are mounted on.   Sorry about the different countries slang expressions Scott!

HH

Fanny Adams (30 April 1859 – 24 August 1867) was a young English girl murdered by solicitor's clerk Frederick Baker in Alton, Hampshire. The expression "sweet Fanny Adams" refers to her and has come, through British naval slang, to mean "nothing at all".

When I was assigned to England for a 26 mo. tour in the USAF, I thought I knew English slang... until I met a Cockney.
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Offline roger gebhart

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 02:57:13 PM »
Ok. So now I know the richardskit is the upright version, sfa is nothing and th tbird is a good flying airplane.  More info won't hurt me but I will proceed with the plan. Thanks guys

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2014, 04:39:43 PM »
Just MHO: For the Mk 1 I would go with the Brodak kit. Currently out of stock but they will be back or someone here may have one they are willing to sell. Why Brodak?-includes hardware, excellent plans, good balsa, and an instruction book. They build into a real nice MK 1 T-Bird (the only version I haven't built...yet). 8)
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 11:09:47 PM »
Fanny Adams (30 April 1859 – 24 August 1867) was a young English girl murdered by solicitor's clerk Frederick Baker in Alton, Hampshire. The expression "sweet Fanny Adams" refers to her and has come, through British naval slang, to mean "nothing at all".

When I was assigned to England for a 26 mo. tour in the USAF, I thought I knew English slang... until I met a Cockney.

Thank you for the clarification! They have a lot in common with Aussies (I mean that in the nicest possible way!) in that they seem to get great joy from messing wif the English language <wink, wink, nudge, nudge>.   H^^ Steve
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 11:48:17 PM by Steve Helmick »
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Dallas Hanna

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2014, 02:31:57 AM »
Thank you for the clarification! They have a lot in common with Aussies (I mean that in the nicest possible way!) in that they seem to get great joy from messing wif the English language <wink, wink, nudge, nudge>.   H^^ Steve

Better come down for a visit so we can "top you up" Steve!!

HH

Offline roger gebhart

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2014, 05:39:04 AM »
Balsa butcher. Thanks for the input but have bought Juan's kit. I understand Richards kits are pretty nice and lazier cut kits are great but I no longer have a lazer sharp mind anyway. I have some new Tom Morris hardware that measures almost perfect according to outer zone plan. If I waited might forget anyway. (Lazer sharp mind).  :)

Offline George

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2014, 08:24:09 AM »
Thanks Dallas!

Hey, will someone loan me their American/English - Australian/English dictionary so I can follow these threads?


How can anyone understand us when we drive on a Parkway and park on a driveway?

George
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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2014, 09:06:04 AM »
Actually there is an explanation for "parkway".

When the Merritt parkway in New York was built, there many parks along the road. So it was referred to as the "Parkway".

I don't have a clue as how "Driveway" came to be.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2014, 10:41:28 AM »
I emailed Larry and axed him if he ever kitted the T-Bird II and got a quick reply...here it is, copied and pasted:

"Hello Steve.  No, I only kitted the First Thunderbird."

Regardless, the RSM laser cut ribs would not be appropriate for the earlier T-Bird, because (at least), the tip ribs would be longer than the plans. Brodak will apparently sell a set of plans, a laser cut ribset, and perhaps also a complete wing kit for the early version.

To cover all bases, no, none are OTS legal, but both (actually all T-Birds are Classic legal. Four? Five? How about SIX?!!! The early upright with either exposed cylinder, "Speed Cowl", "Radial Cowl", and the Trike. And then, the '59 (RSM) and '60 (Veco kit and clones).   :o Steve
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 11:28:30 AM by Steve Helmick »
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline EddyR

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2014, 12:47:33 PM »
I have tried to post this picture three times and the web page hangs up.
This is my speed cowl version as most were built this way from the kits around 1960. This model was built in 1986
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline John Park

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2014, 01:28:30 PM »
Folks:
I've always preferred the look of the exposed-cylinder Mk. 1 T'bird (which I've always called the 'pointy-nose' version).  Was there a specific kit or plan for that version, or did people simply build it that way because they didn't like cowls?  By the way, I know Juhani Kari used Palmer differential flaps on his 'Nakke' design - I have the plan, love the design, and like the idea of building one, so the question is: with or without differential flaps?  Any recommendations?
You want to make 'em nice, else you get mad lookin' at 'em!

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2014, 02:28:35 PM »
"Sierra Foxtrot Alpha" are international phonetics for the alphabet S-F-A.  However, I'm not acquainted with street lingo to know what "SFA" actually means.

Floyd
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2014, 02:51:55 PM »
Folks:
I've always preferred the look of the exposed-cylinder Mk. 1 T'bird (which I've always called the 'pointy-nose' version).  Was there a specific kit or plan for that version, or did people simply build it that way because they didn't like cowls?  By the way, I know Juhani Kari used Palmer differential flaps on his 'Nakke' design - I have the plan, love the design, and like the idea of building one, so the question is: with or without differential flaps?  Any recommendations?

John,

I hope the Thread goes back on track and with more info and more great photos of Thunderbirds.

I'm actually putting one together.
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Online Geoff Goodworth

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2014, 05:55:47 PM »
Re the language differences.

Bob Kruger has worked with quite a few Brits and Aussies over the years and we often laugh about being in two countires divided by a common language.

Offline Dallas Hanna

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2014, 08:44:21 PM »
Folks:
I've always preferred the look of the exposed-cylinder Mk. 1 T'bird (which I've always called the 'pointy-nose' version).  Was there a specific kit or plan for that version, or did people simply build it that way because they didn't like cowls?  By the way, I know Juhani Kari used Palmer differential flaps on his 'Nakke' design - I have the plan, love the design, and like the idea of building one, so the question is: with or without differential flaps?  Any recommendations?

Most likely the only ones to build the Mk 1 T-Bird without the speed cowl would have been Bob Palmer himself.  I can't remember seeing him with one other than the uncowled version except for the radial cowled one.

Just a point on the Nakke, I think Kari took things the wrong way when Bob said plans were drawn wrong on the New Thunderbird with differential flaps.  These pushrods were drawn from the bellcrank side rather from the rear which killed the differential movement requirements.  Many thought that that he meant the horns were the wrong way.  This is explained by him in the Skyscraper notes.  Kari had his Nakke with the shorter horn on the outboard flap.  To answer your question "with or without".  Definitely without.

HH

Offline John Park

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2014, 08:09:09 AM »
Dallas:
Many thanks for pointing out the flap-horn length anomaly on the 'Nakke' plan - a drafting error, presumably, or Kari wouldn't have placed third with the model in the 1967 Criterium of Aces!  Even so, 2mm. difference seems huge - I understand that Bob Palmer tried 3/32", found the effect too drastic and cut it to 1/32" (3/4" left flap, 25/32" right) on the definitive Mk. II T'bird (info. gleaned from Ron Moulton's 'Control Line Manual', which, BTW, contained photographs of several Mk. 1 T'birds, all with exposed cylinder heads). 
You want to make 'em nice, else you get mad lookin' at 'em!

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: thunderbirds
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2014, 02:07:37 PM »
So.  Charles wants more T'bird pictures.  This is mine, a copy of one that Palmer had.  Power here is an OS-35S

Floyd
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AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020


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