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Author Topic: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?  (Read 7026 times)

Offline Avaiojet

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Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« on: October 20, 2014, 07:46:44 AM »
This new model I designed and am now building, a 54" semi-scale sport stunter. I'm incorporating a flap gap of .125" deliberatly.

Coincidentally, I saw a model at a recent contest that had wide flap gaps also, possibly a tad more than .125".

I kept an eye on the model and it flew well, old time pattern. Flew really well actually, smooth as silk.

My interest isn't the disadvantages or the benefits of tighter flaps.

My interest is to hear from modelers with airplanes that have large gaps at the flaps, for whatever the reason.

I'd like to know if they think they have lost anything in fly ability because of these gaps.

Thanks in advance.

Charles
 
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Online don boka

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 09:19:16 AM »
I  know this is a waste of information but here goes anyways. The person flying with a wide flap gap would most likely not know the difference between a good and bad flight anyhow. Remember not too long ago tape was used to seal the gap even if it was small. Obviously this was not done for making things pretty. Now what could the reason be? Another experiment would be to make it extremely tail heavy. Disregard what others say and find out for yourself unless you have found out already. Just a few helpful hints.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 12:33:00 PM »
OK! OK!

I'll close the gap.

That didn't take much.  n~

I'd rather have a better flying airplane.

Thanks.

Ty, "FWIW" It's worth a great deal. Thanks.

Dan, not a waste of information. Thanks.
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2014, 12:57:59 PM »
I would think a wide gap would at least be consistent because it wouldn't be opening and closing as the hinged surface moves, but at the same time a sealed (no gap) hinge line would have the same benefit while not looking hokey.  The disadvantage of a tight hinge line is that it's more difficult to make the hinged surfaces move smoothly without drag.  Everything has to be more precise to keep from rubbing somewhere in the range of motion.  Any rub, any drag, any stickyness is going to translate to hunting in level flight, or bumps in the nice smooth turns, etc.  The controls should be completely free, and smooth through the entire range of travel.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2014, 03:18:28 PM »
The issue is resolved because I'll have tight gaps.

Isn't hunting caused by having play in the control surfaces or pushrods that have flex?
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2014, 03:56:30 PM »
The issue is resolved because I'll have tight gaps.

Isn't hunting caused by having play in the control surfaces or pushrods that have flex?

   Hunting is caused by several things sometimes even the pilot. Do you EVER read any of the other posts and subjects on these forums? It's all there, right in front of you. Especially puzzleing given the extensive experience that you claim to have in your background.
    Just wondering???????????????
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 04:51:52 PM »
  Hunting is caused by several things sometimes even the pilot. Do you EVER read any of the other posts and subjects on these forums? It's all there, right in front of you. Especially puzzleing given the extensive experience that you claim to have in your background.
    Just wondering???????????????
    Dan McEntee
  

Dan, Seen you in that video. Explains a lot.

I see those wings on your jacket.

What are they for?

Were you a jumper. Pilot?

Dan,

Only some of the models I've built, past and present. Most of the ones I've finished are long gone. Clearly most are R/C except for the early years. Were you building CL in the late 50's when I started?

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,29070.1100.html
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 05:20:20 PM by Avaiojet »
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 05:56:25 PM »
Think about it a little bit.  Flying a CL model is kind of like driving a car.  Without constant corrections the car will eventually veer off to one side or the other.  In CL the plane will want to climb or dive flying upwind/downwind, etc.  So you're constantly making corrections in level flight.  Maneuvers are similar, when everything is perfect you're probably not making too many corrections, the rest of the time you're manipulating the controls to put the plane right where you want it.  When the controls are stiff, or sticky, it takes more force at the handle to deflect the controls.  When the controls reach the deflection required to make the correction in attitude, they then want to stick there instead of returning to neutral.  So you can get an oscillation reaction from the plane if it's very bad.  To me, "very bad" is just about any stiffness anywhere in the control system.  A stiff balljoint, a rib rubbing the leadout, a pushrod slot that's not large enough, a pushrod guide that drags, or a little epoxy on a hinge barrel, or the barrel pushed against one side or the other of the hinge line so it rubs the trailing edge of the wing/stab or the leading edge of the flap/elevator, etc, is all it takes to cause a problem.

Sometimes, hunting can actually be improved by adding a little slop to a pushrod hole in the control horn.  But that's mostly just a bandaid for a problem somewhere else.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 06:11:59 PM »
Andrew,

Thanks for sharing that information. It's appreciated.

If a control system is a tad stiff, shouldn't it loosen up a bit over time with use?

One would think.

Or, do you do whatever is necessary to free them up and get them as loose as possible from the get go.



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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2014, 07:43:17 PM »
there is a HUGE and significant diferance between loose and free,, you want free,, not loose
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2014, 08:01:16 PM »
Someone has done it.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,33130.0.html

I wish there was more detail on how well it really works. 

Phil

Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 08:24:13 PM »
The Avaiojet guide to trolling SH.


1. Design new model incorporating a known design problem.

2. Start new thread on SH drawing attention to that fact.

3. Blindly defend design based on zero personal knowledge.

4. Insinuate a lack of experience on another SH member. Reference the 1950's.

5. Continue building controversial model knowing it never needs to be flown anyway. Seize any and all opportunity to showcase lack of actual u/c flying knowledge. Be sure to note page views and personal post count.



 



 
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Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 08:28:01 PM »
If a control system is a tad stiff, shouldn't it loosen up a bit over time with use?

Yes and no.  It may or may not free up with use, but your best bet is just to build them right the first time.  Problems are easier to fix before the plane is finished.  If the problem is bad enough, the plane might not last long enough to fix it later.


Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 02:25:13 AM »
  Chuck said;
"Dan, Seen you in that video. Explains a lot."

     Explains what Chuck?

   Chuck said;
"I see those wings on your jacket.

What are they for?

Were you a jumper. Pilot?"

    I could tell you but then I would have to kill you. The answer lies in the archives of Stunthanger. It's in some of those other posts and threads that I asked you if you ever read.

 Chuck said;
 "Dan,

Only some of the models I've built, past and present. Most of the ones I've finished are long gone. Clearly most are R/C except for the early years. Were you building CL in the late 50's when I started?

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,29070.1100.html
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:20:20 PM by Avaiojet »

    Had to add that in later huh? Same old tired photos you have posted before. It makes it real easy to see that almost all of them are not finished, the tired old pattern ship doesn't have any AMA number on it which leads me to believe that it never flew. Even all of your recent efforts are all unfinished, and we're tired of looking at them. You may have started to build C/L models in the late fifties, but even the photos of THOSE aren't finished, no AMA number or evidence that they were ever flown. Judging from the level of questions that you ask and the problems that you have, I sincerely doubt that you ever tried to build another until recently, as you have obviously learned not too much. And after all this time, we still don't know who you are because you won't give your full name or AMA number (if you have one.)

    I tried to build my first model airplane, (a Guillow's or Sterling profile rubber powered model) when I was five years old in 1960. My Dad bought it for my birthday because I was all excited about airplanes after getting to sit in the right seat of the "Caroline", the Kennedy Family airplane. Yes, THAT Kenndy, as in POTUS. My Uncle Bob was first officer on the Convair 240. You can read about my Uncle Bob in the May, 1949 issue of Air Trails magazine in an article about  the Brayton Flying Service and Aviation School at Lambert Field here in St. Louis.  I have been building and flying some sort of model airplane ever since. That includes control line, R/C and free flight competition. Free flight includes both indoor and outdoor. I was regional NSS R/C Soaring Champion in the early eighties. I ran into job troubles in the mid eighties and when money was short, I started to get into C/L stunt because I couldn't afford the high dollar radios and composite air frames that R/C soaring was evolving in to, and I had always admired the way a stunt model looked and had started to collect stunt kits and engines. That was 1986 and I flew my first contest in the new beginner class in 1987, I think, and have concentrated on stunt ever since, but still play around with the other disciplines. I have driven countless miles to fly in countless C/L stunt contests ever since. I have won or placed in contests in every skill level of PAMPA stunt from beginner to expert, and also compete and fly in Classic and OTS also. For the last 15 years I have been a volunteer at the KidVenture venue at the EAA AirVenture convention in Oshkosh, WI and have given training flights to upwards of 4000 kids, maybe more. Also for the last 15 years I have given demonstration flights and talks at a local high school's Junior ROTC program. I've worked part time at Mark Twain Hobby Center in St.Charles, MO for more than 30 years and have helped and coached untold numbers of customers in different aspects of the hobby. Along the way, I have accumulated one of the largest and most complete collections of model airplane magazines in the country. That is not a claim I make, but what I have been told by people who have seen it and who have compared their collections to mine. I have been contacted by people all around the world looking for articles and information, including engineers from McDonnell-Douglas who were working on the Aguila RPV project and were looking for a low speed wind tunnel data tables that Dr. Alexander Lippisch had published in Air trails in the early 1950s. Fifteen years ago, I started to restore and race vintage enduro and ISDT type vintage dirt bikes, the kind I raced back in my younger days. I sort of specialize in Husqvarna, Penton, and Hercules brands with a few Hodakas thrown in the keep Japan covered in my collection. I have quite a few trophies and medals in those endeavors also. During all that time, I got married and had two children. My youngest is my daughter Mary Katherine, and my oldest is my son Sean who you see post here, who is a currently an active Army UAS operator, veteran of four tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, and gave my wife and I our first grandchild, Clara June McEntee.
   That is me pretty much in a nutshell. Is that what you could tell from the video that you said "Explains a lot?"  I just don't know how to post photos or I could fill up a few gigabites of bandwidth with them, instead of just posting the same old tired stuff like you do, and maybe that would explain more?
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 07:17:02 AM »
Dan,

Good morning and a great morning it is. At least for me.

I hope Robert doesn't clean this Thread up because he will be doing a serious injustice to each and every member of this Forum.

I went to a contest a couple of weekends ago. Nice bunch of guys having a great deal of fun.

One modeler, drove three hours to participate in this contest.

What does he say to me after he shakes my hand?  We talk about the rude and sick comments that are prevalent with some individuals towards Avaiojet in Stunt Hanger.

Now I explain to this modeler that this only happens with replies to Avaiojet. As it's so obvious it does and we know jealously is the schoolyard reason.

None the less, he tells me he doesn't Post because he's fearful that HE my receive comments as rude as those comments that I get. I tell him to notify Robert about his feelings, unfortunately, he has no interest in doing this.

Dan, Clint, and ONLY a few others now, thank God, this is the kind of damage your ways/replies are doing to a Forum that Robert works "night and day" at so modelers can have a place to share ideas, learn things and show off their models.

I get e-mails also, have for over four years from modelers telling me the same thing. They see no point in Posting. Yet, they can name the people as to why they don't.

Guys, you're not just talking to me, you're talking to each and every member of Robert's Forum.

If you enjoy saying personal and terrible things to Avaiojet, just send me a PM or an e-mail.

You don't have to air your personalities and your vendetta towards me in this great Forum.

I've said this many times before over a four year span, you're just chipping away at the Forum's quality and it's obvious you just don't give a dam about anyone else.

You're breaking rules that you believe don't apply to you.

You just did this to another Thread I Posted and Robert cleaned it up.

Please Robert, leave the Thread for everyone to read.

Brave modelers might step forward and put these individuals in their place. They cannot if you clean Threads up.

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2014, 07:38:49 AM »
Someone has done it.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,33130.0.html

I wish there was more detail on how well it really works. 

Phil

Thanks Phil,

I see no one picking on this guy? And his concept is extreme! I just wanted one flap with .125" space.

I guess it depends on who you are.

Here's the photos, they are so easy to Post.
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If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2014, 07:45:25 AM »
there is a HUGE and significant diferance between loose and free,, you want free,, not loose

Mark, thanks for the reply, you've always offered good advice.

Yes, free, no "play."

I currently have "snug."

They move easily with a pull on the leadouts but do not just drop, they stay where you put them. Possibly an adjustment in the Robart hinges or possibly because of the 10 degree forward slant of the TE?

I'll take a good look and see if I can fine tune the hinge alignment.

Thanks Mark

Edited, hinge, (sp.)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 11:31:52 AM by Avaiojet »
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If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2014, 07:52:22 AM »
Quote
That is me pretty much in a nutshell. Is that what you could tell from the video that you said "Explains a lot?" 

No Dan,

I see a modeler that has enthusiam and excitement for the hobby.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2014, 08:16:55 AM »
Quote
Brave modelers might step forward and put these individuals in their place.

I completely expect this will be taken the wrong way, but have you considered that Clint and Dan might be the latest "brave modelers" trying to put an individual in his place?

I don't need a reply, just something to think about Charles...





  

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2014, 08:34:16 AM »
I completely expect this will be taken the wrong way, but have you considered that Clint and Dan might be the latest "brave modelers" trying to put an individual in his place?

I don't need a reply, just something to think about Charles...


You've been on the Forum long enough to know what's going on.

You can be part of the problem or the cure?
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2014, 09:15:38 AM »
I've been on enough enthusiast forums since 1996 to know that multiple members of a forum aren't going to jump on anyone unless they REALLY don't fit in.  There comes a time when you have to accept that if a forum isn't a good fit for your personality, it might be best to change yourself, or remove yourself from the community instead of trying to change the community into something it will never be.  On any other forum, an admin or moderator would have identified the problem by now and imposed a ban, for the good of the community.


Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2014, 09:30:46 AM »

I went to a contest a couple of weekends ago. Nice bunch of guys having a great deal of fun.

One modeler, drove three hours to participate in this contest.

What does he say to me after he shakes my hand?  We talk about the rude and sick comments that are prevalent with some individuals towards Avaiojet in Stunt Hanger.

Now I explain to this modeler that this only happens with replies to Avaiojet. As it's so obvious it does and we know jealously is the schoolyard reason.

None the less, he tells me he doesn't Post because he's fearful that HE my receive comments as rude as those comments that I get. I tell him to notify Robert about his feelings, unfortunately, he has no interest in doing this.

Dan, Clint, and ONLY a few others now, thank God, this is the kind of damage your ways/replies are doing to a Forum that Robert works "night and day" at so modelers can have a place to share ideas, learn things and show off their models.

I get e-mails also, have for over four years from modelers telling me the same thing. They see no point in Posting. Yet, they can name the people as to why they don't.



So you're saying that others are afraid to post here based solely on responses to your threads, but not any of the more positive constructive threads that we all reply to. Nope, not buying it.

You can claim to be the victim all you want. Fact is you've chased a number of good modelers off this forum or away from posting altogether. We've grown a bit weary of this Avaiojet character's BS posts. You've been a running joke here now for several years. I've got a mountain of email and PMs passed around from dozens of guys about you, and trust when i say, they're not flattering. Trying to be the class clown hasn't served you very well but it certainly has got you the attention you seem so desperate to receive.

Btw, at this contest you went to, did you fly one if your models?  
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2014, 09:39:53 AM »
I've been on enough enthusiast forums since 1996 to know that multiple members of a forum aren't going to jump on anyone unless they REALLY don't fit in.  There comes a time when you have to accept that if a forum isn't a good fit for your personality, it might be best to change yourself, or remove yourself from the community instead of trying to change the community into something it will never be.  On any other forum, an admin or moderator would have identified the problem by now and imposed a ban, for the good of the community.



Andrew,

Who are you working for?  LL~

You should take Dan's advice and do more reading.

Robert's quote...

"This is Charles area. He has the right to limit posts,delete modify or move posts here at his discretion. If you disagree with him fine do so in a polite way. I am tired of the bickering and I will from this day on suspend your privileges to post or view SH for 1 week for first offense and 1 month second offence and total ban from viewing this site by a IP ban for the third. I am not the other forum hosts. The root of the problem is not Charles."

Here's the link...

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,31023.0.html

Here's the thing.

Who the hell are these guys, to force Robert to allow a place for myself, where I can monitor the bullying and rule braking, not to mention the personal comments, such as yours.

Clint, I didn't invent Stunt Anger. You can take credit for that. And you won't give up.

And till this day, I can still say I've done nothing wrong.

All anyone has to do is read.

You along with Dan, bring nothing to this Forum but arguements and display your lack of modeling character.

Dan already had my comment about his "wings" removed. I only asked if he was a jumper or a pilot.

Of which I was both.



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2014, 09:41:41 AM »
Go pick on Wes for his Slotted Flaps.  LL~ LL~ LL~
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2014, 10:05:36 AM »
Go pick on Wes for his Slotted Flaps.  LL~ LL~ LL~

   No need to pick on Wes for his flap project. He did the research all on his own and applied what he found into a model that is truly of his own design. It is an entirely different concept than what you were referring to. Apples and oranges difference. It has been discussed here on the forum and in Stunt News and I guess it was among the stuff that you never read. You will notice one thing about Wesley's model, don't you? Notice that it IS FINISHED and HAS BEEN FLOWN in competition. I know and have met Wes on several occasions at the NATS. You could learn a lot from Wes.
   Type at you later,
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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2014, 10:22:23 AM »
Andrew,

Who are you working for?  LL~

You should take Dan's advice and do more reading.

Robert's quote...

"This is Charles area. He has the right to limit posts,delete modify or move posts here at his discretion. If you disagree with him fine do so in a polite way. I am tired of the bickering and I will from this day on suspend your privileges to post or view SH for 1 week for first offense and 1 month second offence and total ban from viewing this site by a IP ban for the third. I am not the other forum hosts. The root of the problem is not Charles."

Here's the link...

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,31023.0.html

Here's the thing.

Who the hell are these guys, to force Robert to allow a place for myself, where I can monitor the bullying and rule braking, not to mention the personal comments, such as yours.

Clint, I didn't invent Stunt Anger. You can take credit for that. And you won't give up.

And till this day, I can still say I've done nothing wrong.

All anyone has to do is read.

You along with Dan, bring nothing to this Forum but arguements and display your lack of modeling character.

Dan already had my comment about his "wings" removed. I only asked if he was a jumper or a pilot.

Of which I was both.





   I don't know if you noticed this or not, but this section isn't in "your area." This is building techniques. And if you would work on your reading comprehension, you would also see that your comments about the wings on my jacket are still there. I have no power to remove them. You are and have been bending and breaking rules since the beginning one of which is that you won't tell us who you are. I have not said anything personal or malicious towards you. I have only called you out on points of fact regarding your posts and claims. In plain English, tried to keep you honest. I think I really only have two more words for you;  Plastic Models.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2014, 10:22:59 AM »
   No need to pick on Wes for his flap project. He did the research all on his own and applied what he found into a model that is truly of his own design. You will notice one thing about Wesley's model, don't you? Notice that it IS FINISHED and HAS BEEN FLOWN in competition. I know and have met Wes on several occasions at the NATS. You could learn a lot from Wes.
   Type at you later,
    Dan  McEntee

Dan,

If I could learn a lot from Wes, then so could you and others.

Sure, I know what Wes has done is probably more like apples compared to my oranges, but "gaps" are gaps none the less.

To bad Wes' Thread ended. I'd like to know more about Wes' gaps and how they helped his model, rather than argueing pointlessly and needlessly because of something I had in mind.

It's only because it's me. Status quo.

Dan, there's no reason for you to not Post photos because you don't know how.

I started a Thread explaining how to Post a photo.

If you still have trouble, I will be glad to Post your photos for you. As I have in the past for other modelers.

Now, if I could only learn how to do videos.  ;D

Thanks for the reply Dan.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2014, 10:34:53 AM »
   I don't know if you noticed this or not, but this section isn't in "your area." This is building techniques. And if you would work on your reading comprehension, you would also see that your comments about the wings on my jacket are still there. I have no power to remove them. You are and have been bending and breaking rules since the beginning one of which is that you won't tell us who you are. I have not said anything personal or malicious towards you. I have only called you out on points of fact regarding your posts and claims. In plain English, tried to keep you honest. I think I really only have two more words for you;  Plastic Models.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Dan,

Thanks for the autobiography a couple of threads up. Looks like you have a great life and have made many contributions. Kudos.

Please, just pay less attention to what Avaiojet does or take Roberts advice. Nothing good to say, "change the channel."

We're both modelers, so let's do some high energy building and stop the bickering.

What say, truce?



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2014, 10:36:32 AM »
I've seen Dan at contests for nearly 20 years.  I can tell you that he always seems to be having a good time.  I've had conversations with him, face to face, and know him to be a genuine good guy, and not at all the schoolyard bully you are making him out to be.  His comments convey frustration, and it's easily understandable since similar frustration has been displayed by many regular contributors on the forum after trying to help you.  All I'm saying is that you instigate these reactions in this normally incredibly giving and helpful community.   What are the chances we all got together and decided to single you out for abuse?  And if we did, why are you so eager to keep subjecting yourself to the abuse?

Food for thought....  
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"If you meet an asshole in the morning, you met an asshole. If you meet assholes all day, you’re the asshole."
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2014, 11:14:56 AM »
I've seen Dan at contests for nearly 20 years.  I can tell you that he always seems to be having a good time.  I've had conversations with him, face to face, and know him to be a genuine good guy, and not at all the schoolyard bully you are making him out to be.  His comments convey frustration, and it's easily understandable since similar frustration has been displayed by many regular contributors on the forum after trying to help you.  All I'm saying is that you instigate these reactions in this normally incredibly giving and helpful community.   What are the chances we all got together and decided to single you out for abuse?  And if we did, why are you so eager to keep subjecting yourself to the abuse?

Food for thought....     D>K

Andrew,

I haven't seen much of you in the Forum and know absolutely nothing about you. I asked for you to point me to your Builds and contributions?

You can be bias as you choose and write it up that way, your friends, but it serves no useful purpose.

It is what it is and it's been argued to death for over five years in two Forums.

You can call me any names you like, and that's you talking, to whom I've done nothing.

So you see how contagious and pointless this is and gets.

You don't have to fall victim to it.

We are all being read, modelers are drawing conclusions, and they know exactly what's takeing place.

My best line. "Just read the Thread." It's not rocket science.  LL~ They are self-explanatory.

Now why would you want to be part of that?

There's a few thousand members in Robert's Forum.

It's always the same "few" that act up. Now why is that?

Just don't reply or change the channel.

If you do reply, be positive and constructive. It will catch on.

This nonesense and negative banter is of no value.

Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 12:18:46 PM »


There's a few thousand members in Robert's Forum.

It's always the same "few" that act up. Now why is that?

[/quote]

   And it is always you who incites the activity. You can spend all day searching the forum and look for similar incidents and you won't find any. You will find heated discussions among people who know and respect each other, but none that do what you do. You state that you don't know Andrew. That has always been one of my questions: Who are you? We all go by full names here and we know each other. You just popped up and make like you are a former NATS champion with a pedigree a mile long. But you just have some old tired photos and a string of unfinished models and a bunch of claims. Hard for anybody to put any faith or belief in anything that some one puts up on the internet if you don't know them or their reputation. Heck, We can't be sure you are even the one building the stuff you put pictures up of. That's all I have ever said. We don't know you. Finish a model, take it to the field, put up a pattern.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 05:27:38 PM »
Dan,Clint,
I don't understand what your contribution to this thread is. You come on here and act like you know everything, stop being a jerk.

A question was put out to the group. Lots of question get asked and if you don't like the question, go away. We don't need this kind of behavior against other members. If you look at the number of people that post, its maybe 12 if we are lucky. Actions like yours keep people from participating. This is a hobby and an open forum, everyone should feel comfortable to participating. It doesn't matter if they ask questions that have been addressed many times, sometimes new information is added.

The ship that Charles referred to flies very well, I have flown it, it will do the pattern. We all looked at this the first time with the conventional view. Then we saw it fly, works fine. Look at the ship with the double slots, works fine I've seen it fly. Sometime we look at anything that is different as being wrong, dumb, but then a high level flyer uses it and wow its great (i.e. tuned pipes, electrics). This is one of the few hobbies that you can "cut and try". If it is works out great. This is a forum that allows these ideas to be seen and tweaked, not suppressed.    Things need to be open on this forum.

Best,      DennisT


 

Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2014, 11:47:37 PM »
Dennis, I know you're a long time member here and I have respect for you. You should know the same of me. When anyone here has a serious question and I happen to know the answer, I'm more than happy to share. I never one time said I know everthing. I see the same of Dan and any other person here accused of "bullying" Charles. We're here to learn from others and help who we can.

However, Charles is a special case. He is not here for either help nor helping others, despite his claims. That became instantly obvious the first months he was here when post count was a tip top priority for him. As a total anonymous newbie, he was trying to school the likes of Keith Trostle and Brett Buck on how to build and Mark Scarborough on painting. Granted, he may not have know their expertise. But even after being informed of their (and others) extreme knowledge, Charles was rude and condescending. He is on this forum for one reason only and that is to make himself feel important and knowledgeable.

Then there's his never ending string of ridiculous build threads. Every one of them an unfinished and unflown model incorporating some sort of overly elaborate and overweight construction using antique hardware. These pic heavy threads show up absolutely everywhere on SH which Charles claims are his "contributions" and these are what he tries to use against anyone that contradicts his ideas. Well, that and the fact that he's been doing models since the 1950's which he references often. Personally, I don't see how this helps his case because it looks like he's been half building airplanes for 60 years.

But here's one of the biggest problems, he jumps into threads and directs people to do stuff or use products that are universally known by most of us to be downright wrong. Its usually directed at someone pretty new to U/C, which is even worse. But if someone tactfully points that out, he's instantly on the offensive once again pointing out his many "contributions" and his extensive years of (non) experience, challenging any naysayers to show their contributions to SH. He told me flat out, "you're only 46, you don't know anything".

Dennis, I would never be a bully just for the fun of it. Do a search on all his stuff going back a few years. It'll remind you of why a few of us still give him a hard time. Others have given up. I feel like by contradicting his nonsense, I'm keeping a lot of misinformation from being taken as Gospel. I find it awfully hard to believe that some of the stuff he posts isn't just to start controversy.

Like this thread, for instance. What Charles intends to do with his new "design" isn't anything like what Wes did. But by posting a pic of that plane, he thinks it lends some credibility to his idea. It doesn't. What it DID do is give him something to redirect to when it was pointed out that big gaps in flaps are problematic. So anyone challenging him was defacto challenging Wes. It's actually a pretty brilliant strategy on his part. But of course any semi-experienced modeler knows they're not the same thing.

He's doing nothing good here, Dennis. Charles has a self serving agenda and subconscious need to feel important. I guess we all do in one way or another, but his is detrimental to the forum. 




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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2014, 05:26:24 AM »
Well, when you put it that way, the hatred and vitriol are much more enjoyable.

Some of us just don't want to have to sift through all of this nonsense on the off chance there might be some true wisdom hidden in the thread.

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 05:29:35 AM »
Clint,

Thanks for your reply, but I apologize, I cannot spend the time to read all of that. Besides, my guess is it's all been said before many times by many people.

Couple of quick things.

Quote
Dennis, I know you're a long time member here and I have respect for you. You should know the same of me.

Please leave Dennis alone. And anyone else that has the courage to put you in your place. Someone has to.

“You know the same of me.“

The same what? You’ve lost your respect. People can read. And they will read you very well.

You care nothing about other modelers or rules. You just display your dirty laundry. So be it.

 Clint, I gotta tell ya, as a modeler you’ve failed. In my view, you are not a modeler. Not the kind I experienced in my early years. My guess, there’s many in the Forum that feel the same way.

Tell me, what gives you, or your group of experts, the right to badger another modeler, constantly for five years in two Forums, that has paid his dues BTW, actually long before many of you were even in the hobby. For what, because I didn’t know who the experts were or I questioned advice?

How sick is that? Who are you to think that you shouldn’t be questioned? God. Clint, the expert and modeling God. Do it our way or take the highway. Is that how it is?

So now you admit that you and your group decide to send emails to each other and set out on a Johny "quest" to make my presents, in this Forum, as uncomfortable as you can . Go to great lengths to damage my credibility or attempt get me tossed. What a great bunch of modelers. Take a bow.

This is pointless so I will be short.

Your Post will stay and your fellow modelers will read your comments. They will see that you ARE attacking me personally and are braking rules as you always have for five years.

Rules designed to keep order in the Forum. Rules designed to keep Threads “clean.“ Rules designed so jealous bullies don’t do to others what you do to me. Or show unkindness to others that may have a different way of doing things and would like to express it.

There should be no price to pay for that. We are all in the same hobby.

Five years of this? Please get some help.

In spite of all this, you still have my Blessings.

I hope it does some good.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2014, 05:55:22 AM »
Charles, just so it doesn't look like I'm defending you, you are not the innocent victim here. You seem to thrive on creating conflict. For instance, you didn't have to make that last post. Attacking Clint serves absolutely no purpose. If you were a hockey player you would be what's known as an 'agitator'. Those are the guys that go out on the ice and do little sneaky things, and say things to other players, then when the ref lights into them they look at them all stupid and claim innocence.
This is an old picture, but illustrates well the fate of a real life agitator (as opposed to a keyboard commando). Matt Cooke, on the left, is a known agitator. I don't know what he said to Evander Kane, but I bet he wasn't asking about the weather.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2014, 06:17:35 AM »
Charles, just so it doesn't look like I'm defending you, you are not the innocent victim here. You seem to thrive on creating conflict. For instance, you didn't have to make that last post. Attacking Clint serves absolutely no purpose. If you were a hockey player you would be what's known as an 'agitator'. Those are the guys that go out on the ice and do little sneaky things, and say things to other players, then when the ref lights into them they look at them all stupid and claim innocence.
This is an old picture, but illustrates well the fate of a real life agitator (as opposed to a keyboard commando). Matt Cooke, on the left, is a known agitator. I don't know what he said to Evander Kane, but I bet he wasn't asking about the weather.


Jim,

I believe if more modelers defended me, this would have ended years ago. I cannot do this alone.

You say I'm attacking Clint, but you don't say to Clint that he is attacking me.

I'm not attacking, I'm responding.

I never started this nor did I expected this from fellow modelers.

The Forum isn't designed for these kind of comments. It nips away at the fabric and diminishes the quality plus it has a negative impact on people not willing to express themselves by participating. Not a good thing.

Is someone at fault? Sure, always.

Read the Thread and see how it starts.

You like Hockey?



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2014, 06:53:46 AM »
Victims need to be defended. Agitators do not. When you perpetuate the conflict by pouring gasoline on the fire you are an agitator.
If you spent as much time building, finishing, and flying your models as you do composing your fragmented, far reaching, and mostly irrevelant responses to the posts of your 'enemies' you would have a fleet of worn out models by now.
I have read several of your threads. I've seen a pattern. You post with an idea. Some of the top guns reply. You respond with, "thanks, but I'm going to do thus and such". More helpful advice is given, and you of course know better due to your vast experience.
If this was a one time thing, okay, he'll learn. Twice, and he will get it eventually. But most every one ( I can't be bothered to read them all, so I hesitate to say ALL!) of your "contributions" to this forum follow this pattern.
I think you thrive on the attention you get from this conflict and continue to fan the fire long after the ashes are cold. I, for one, will never again open a thread started by Avaiojet. To put it plainly, it's  just not worth my time.
Now rather than replying with your argument for the defense, why don't you go sand a wing or something. That would be much better use of your time.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2014, 07:26:39 AM »
Jim,

I don't know what to say to that attack.  LL~

Except you don't know me.

Yes, I'm sure it sometimes looks as if I agitate, but don't confuse that with my efforts to stop this nonsense.

These guys have deliberately and intentionally, muddy up each and every Thread I've ever started or Posted. Every single one. Not to mention, the attempt to strip me of everything I represent in this hobby.

The hobby means a great deal to me and I enjoy it. Reguardless of this treatment.

They started it and they can end it. All they have to do is stop it.

Read all of this Thread. If you come away thinking I started this, then I would be really surprised.

No, I don't care if you take sides. It's only natural to side in or defend the status quo. It's safer that way.

Now you can have at me again.  LL~



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

James_Mynes

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2014, 07:42:23 AM »
Not an attack. Facts as I see them.
After spending 20+ years in the US Army and listening to every excuse a wayward Private can dream up, I've developed a pretty good bullshit filter.
I've had my say, and I'm done with this thread and any others with your name on them. They clog my filter.

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2014, 08:21:00 AM »
" Clint, I gotta tell ya, as a modeler you’ve failed. In my view, you are not a modeler."

That statement is pure ignorance. Since when do you have to be 60 or 70 years old to be a modeler. Many of the Nats winners and best CL flyers in the world have been in their teens and in their 20s.

Clint is one of the best! A true modeler and a good guy.

All the RC flying in the world does not give you direct feed back to how the airplane reacts to gaps.   Gaps have been addressed in full size airplanes too. Many Pitts Specials have the elevator gaps sealed. I have personal experience with that.

In the early stages a new CL pilot will not feel the effect of small trim items including gap seal, but as he progresses the little and not so subtle things will become obvious.

MY only suggestion is that you become an AMA member and a Pampa member and learn about the event, who designs and who flies. Pampa Stunt News covers stunt from the whole world. All of these enthusiasts share their vast knowledge and experience.

I also have to add that Dan gave his resume above. He is one of the few who have flown most of the model airplane disciplines. I have taught many people how to fly controline. but not near as many as Dan. He is a true ambassador to CL.




« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:35:15 AM by Tom Niebuhr »
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Online Bill Morell

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2014, 10:06:07 AM »
And the beat goes on..........
Bill Morell
It wasn't that you could and others couldn't, its that you did and others didn't.
Vietnam 72-73
  Better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Wide Flap Gaps, Ya got um?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2014, 05:01:55 PM »
And the beat goes on..........

Not anymore. I want this constant bickering to stop! He's touching-He's looking. Everyone will be sorry if I have to stop this car.
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