Klass Kote ? (sp.)

[Jim Fruit]

Do any of you have any experience or have any comments about the paint called Klass Kote? I am not sure that I am spelling that correctly.

Jim Fruit

[Larry Renger]

Absolutely fuell proof, abrasion resistant, good coverage with very low volume of paint needed. Incredibly glossy finish with no topcoat needed. So good that rubbing and polish are pointless if your application is good enough,

Compatible with all the old Petit and K&B epoxy paints except for 2nd generation K&B.

Expensive to get started, but really cheap in the long run because of the microscopic amounts needed to give a final finish.

No, i have no financial involvement except that I pay full price for mine from Smith Brothers' Hobby in Reseda, CA.

Just one hint...don't mistake clear for hardener Part B.   I don't want to talk about it 

[Mike Keville]

Hopefully, Keith Trostle will chime-in here.  Some of his 1/2A multi-engine profile scale models were finished with Klass Kote.  Absolutely beautiful...rock-hard and fuel-resistant.

[Avaiojet]

Do any of you have any experience or have any comments about the paint called Klass Kote? I am not sure that I am spelling that correctly.

Jim Fruit

Jim,

Epoxy two part paint. I think they took over the K&B Epoxy paint marketplace. Klass Kote has been around for 10 or so years.

I've used the two part K&B Epoxy paints extensivly before switching over to auto paint and auto clears back in the late 80's

Epoxy anything is heavy, but you do scale, so weight may not be an issue.

Epoxy paints are toxic, like all good two part paints.

Someone just Posted about water base paint. I gotta find that again, could be of interest.

[David_Stack]

Good Morning Jim;

  Down in the "Vendor's Corner" section is a sub-forum dedicated to Klass Kote materials.  The posts there are not product announcements/advertisements per say, but rather questions/comments/observations from folks interested in, or using the product.  Some good stuff there.

r/
Dave

[Jim Fruit]

Thanks guys. Now that I know that it is two-component epoxy, I'll take a pass. I can remember back in the 70's staggering out of my basement after laying down a real fog of K&B. Don't know if I did any real damage. Guess I won't until they do an autopsy!

Jim Fruit

[Avaiojet]

Thanks guys. Now that I know that it is two-component epoxy, I'll take a pass. I can remember back in the 70's staggering out of my basement after laying down a real fog of K&B. Don't know if I did any real damage. Guess I won't until they do an autopsy!

Jim Fruit

The damage is done. You're still building model airplanes. 

I would never go back to Epoxy paint either.

My next model will be all auto paint.

[Mike Callas]

Seriously
Wear a respirator and paint in a vented area.
Just painted a Super Slow Rat and even with my respirator on it does kinda knock you a little dizzy.
The paint kicks butt, easy to use and great results. If you doped initially, wait several weeks before applying KK.

Mike

[Lester Nicholson]

Can you brush it on w/acceptable results?  Nick

[Trostle]

A lot of what I can say about Klass Kote is what Larry Ringer has already posted above.  It is absolutely hot fuel proof.  In fact, a famous writer/modeler/designer did a review of the stuff several years ago, soaked a rag with 25% nitro and let set overnight.  No impact.  He then wiped it with 100% nitro with no impact.

Being an epoxy, weight was mentioned as a potential problem.  The stuff covers with one light (a in thin) coat. So weight can be controlled if carefully applied. 

You can mix it for super gloss that will require absolutely no rubbing.  Or you can mix it with a different hardener that can give you whatever degree of semi-gloss to matt finish you might want for a scale ship.

Same if you spray with a clear coat.  One thin coat of clear will seal all of the details, like ink lines, shading, decals (if used) or whatever.  Again, the clear can be applied to get either a super gloss (where it always looks like it is still just sprayed) or what degree of semi-gloss you want to a totally matt finish.

Another neat thing is that you can order by Federal Standard Number, which for scale work is invaluable unless you are adept at mixing your own colors. (With all of the references on color and markings, it is fairly easy to find the FSN for the colors of almost any scale airplane.)

And another neat thing is that when you go to their website, you can call up a visual comparison of the different colors you might be interested in.  Like if you want to compare the different greens that show up on say a British fighter, you can call up the FSN of the several greens you might fine referenced and compare them on your screen.  Or like you compare the different olive drabs by FSN including the olive drab used on US aircraft in WWII for which there is no FSN, yet Klass Kote has it in their palette.

You can check out this capability at   http://www.colorserver.net/

And their white primer is as good as the old K&B primer.  Great stuff, but have to be careful to no let it build up too much because it can be heavy.  What I do with this stuff is to brush it on (making it thin enough to brush on and totally cover the surface.  Sand almost all of it away, being careful not to use too course of wet sand paper and not use much pressure when taking the last bit away from the surface.  This allows the primer to remain in the small pits, surface irregularities (as with the carbon mat stuff) without the sandpaper dragging the primer away.  Then spry a thin coat of primer and wet sand to leave sort of a milky "whitewash" on the surface.  It is ready then for its one coat of color.  (Use 400 paper wet before the final color, 600 paper wet will make the surface too smooth.)

Great stuff to use on these 1/2A scale ships which use 25% or higher nitro.  Before Klass Kote, this fuel acted like acid on the finishes of my scale birds. Now, you just wipe the fuel away with no concern about the finish.

Like Larry said, it is kind of expensive, but a little bit of color goes a long way.

Keith

[Jim Roselle]

Can anyone comment on the shelf life after the product has been opened?

Jim

[Larry Renger]

It's REnger, not RInger.

Now, to answer the question, I have used decades old Petit and K&B colors with Klass Kote hardener with successful result.

[Brett Buck]

Can anyone comment on the shelf life after the product has been opened?

  Indefinite, as near as I can tell. I recently used the can of paint I opened in 2006, and have used it with 30-year-old Superpoxy colors, with no problems.

    Brett

[David Ruff]

I have brushed it over bare wood.  It is a two coat paint.  One of primer and one of color.

I am thinking of using it again over silkspan covered wood,

I have a Brodak Fancy Pants with 3/4 oz of lead in the tail and 1/2 oz in the wing and my two coat KK finish and it weighs 33 oz. 

Try it.

[wwwarbird]

 I've always wondered this about epoxy paints, what do you use to for cleaning your paint guns and airbrushes etc., to not end up gluing everything up?

[Brett Buck]

I've always wondered this about epoxy paints, what do you use to for cleaning your paint guns and airbrushes etc., to not end up gluing everything up?

   I use lacquer thinner. You do have to be more diligent because you can't expect to loosen it up after it has cured.

   To summarize the question originally asked, as far as I am concerned, dope (aside from attaching tissue or carbon) is essentially obsolete. Klass-Kote is cheaper (ultimately), lighter, more durable, etc. You have to have a different technique, but otherwise, no reason not to use it.

    Brett

[David Ruff]

Well I am now applying silkspan to the wood on my Brodak Viking.  I was going to use dope but I think I will brush a couple of coats of clear nitrate over the silkspan, apply a coat of butyrate primer and then final coat of red Klass Kote.

I read that I should let the butyrate gas off a couple of weeks before the KK?  The KK website does not mention that specifically but says KK will go over anything.

As I said, I have used KK with great results.  One or two coats is hard to beat for finish time.

Besides being fuel proof, KK is practically bullet proof and must add strength as well.

[Larry Renger]

To get a really punchy red, you need a white underlayer. Use a white primer and leave just enough on to provide an even base.

[Avaiojet]

   I use lacquer thinner. You do have to be more diligent because you can't expect to loosen it up after it has cured.

   To summarize the question originally asked, as far as I am concerned, dope (aside from attaching tissue or carbon) is essentially obsolete. Klass-Kote is cheaper (ultimately), lighter, more durable, etc. You have to have a different technique, but otherwise, no reason not to use it.

    Brett

To summarize the question originally asked, as far as I am concerned, dope (aside from attaching tissue or carbon) is essentially obsolete.

Gee, didn't I say this years ago when I first joined the Forum? But I got in trouble. 

What about the trouble I also got into for recommending auto paint and auto clears? 

Now it's popular. Not only popular, but suggested by many.

I'll never understand the learning process. 

[Brett Buck]

Gee, didn't I say this years ago when I first joined the Forum? But I got in trouble. 

What about the trouble I also got into for recommending auto paint and auto clears? 

  No you didn't. That's what many of us had been using for years. I recall the posts, there was a lot of other patented silliness that got people irritated, but not that.


    Brett

[Avaiojet]

  No you didn't. That's what many of us had been using for years. I recall the posts, there was a lot of other patented silliness that got people irritated, but not that.


    Brett

Yes, I know very well by not following advice gets some people irritated.    But it shouldn't. 

The truth does have a way of resurfacing; I must be mistaken. 

Sorry Brett I apologize.  No hard feelings right? 

I've Posted this photo almost a thousand times, and it did get me in trouble, Posting it one more time can't hurt. So, for the new members eyes only, everyone else just turn away, it could get me in trouble again? 

Scratch built, 55" in span, foam balsa sheeted wings, fiberglass cloth covered, Super Tiger RE with a tuned pipe. It's a pattern ship used for R/C. See, no leadouts. Painted in the late 80's, start to finish with auto paint and auto clear. Oh. And hand applied real gold leaf.

I painted a few dozen R/C Pattern ships back then using only "auto paint."

Here's the thing. At that time in R/C. or at least with the local guys, everyone was using K&B Epoxy paint. My background was painting graphics on custom autos and, because of that, I had daily experience with just about every auto paint brand. And there are some differences in quality from brand to brand.

I never liked spraying the K&B products. I don't know for sure, but I can't believe anyone liked spraying K&B? 

Well, they did have a great white primer.  Great white shark?

Soooooooooo, I did what I was comfortable with, I used auto paint. Auto paint is great! IMOHO.

This isn't an endorsement for auto paint, sooooooooo, "Use whatever paint you want." 

Get this! Now I'm using Krylon aerosol cans, thanks to Rusty Rattle Can. Go figure. 

On my next model I'll use artist's acrylics for color and auto clear. No endorsement there either.

[Larry Renger]

Awesome except for the slime machine up front. But then, as you say, that was somr time ago.

But then, I have become one of them electron preverts.   

[Larry Borden]

I still use the old school methods, silk and dope. Just enjoying doing it that way. My personal preference.

[Brett Buck]

Yes, I know very well by not following advice gets some people irritated.    But it shouldn't. 

The truth does have a way of resurfacing; I must be mistaken. 

Sorry Brett I apologize.  No hard feelings right? 

   Not following advice is your business. Having people not follow advice and then complaining about their poor results is frustrating.  Claiming credit for things other people discovered and documented extensively, decades before, however, is *highly irritating*.

   I certainly don't claim to have discovered the value of epoxy and car clear *for stunt planes* (not pattern or pylon). As near as I can tell, use of epoxy dates to the mid-70's at least, with Al Rabe being the first I know of personally. Car clear dates to at least the mid-80's. I doubt he was the first, but Jim Armour is the first person I knew of, he told Ted to use it (PPG DAU75 and DXR 80 hardener), and that's how I came across it. You did nothing and are not even involved.

    Brett



   
   

[Avaiojet]

   Not following advice is your business. Having people not follow advice and then complaining about their poor results is frustrating.  Claiming credit for things other people discovered and documented extensively, decades before, however, is *highly irritating*.

   I certainly don't claim to have discovered the value of epoxy and car clear *for stunt planes* (not pattern or pylon). As near as I can tell, use of epoxy dates to the mid-70's at least, with Al Rabe being the first I know of personally. Car clear dates to at least the mid-80's. I doubt he was the first, but Jim Armour is the first person I knew of, he told Ted to use it (PPG DAU75 and DXR 80 hardener), and that's how I came across it. You did nothing and are not even involved.

    Brett

    Brett

Brett,

Claiming credit for things other people discovered and documented extensively, decades before, however, is *highly irritating*.

Exactly what have I claimed credit for that someone else discovered?

 

[bob whitney]

  i was getting polestar resin from the back door of the Criss Craft co and   using Pettit Boat  Epoxy paint on my speed and race planes in 1959

[Dane Martin]

The plane in my avatar is Monokote white wings and klasskote yellow everything else, with red pinstriping. I get lots of compliments, it's a very sharp looking finish. No clear, just the yellow. The clear would make it stand out,, I'm sure. But the klasskote really looks amazing

[Avaiojet]

  i was getting polestar resin from the back door of the Criss Craft co and   using Pettit Boat  Epoxy paint on my speed and race planes in 1959

Bob,

That's actually what we used, polyester resin, but on the recommendation of a few SH Forum members, I've stopped using it.

As Brett said, dope works extreamly well with the task of applying covering materials, I'm sold on using dope for that purpose.

Took me a while to get the hang of using clear dope, but with the help and advice from the SH Forum members, I got through it.

Now I can use dope with confidence.

I'm going to try artist's acrylic paints on the Mig-3. See how that goes.

[Steve Helmick]

Many years ago, when I used either Hobby Poxy (meh), Woolsey epoxy boat paint, or K&B Super Poxy, I would mix up the paint in a jar, put the lid on it and let it sit on the bench at room temperature. When 24 hrs was up, I'd add an equal amount of appropriate thinner and spray it on. This resulted in it drying to the touch in about 15-20 minutes. Not that it was then touched, but it prevented problems with dust settling on the surfaces. Anybody do that with Klass Kote?    Steve

[Mike Griffin]

Does Klasskote brush on well or does it need to be sprayed on?

Thanks
Mike

[Larry Renger]

Hobbypoxy used to have a special hardener for brushing. You might check the websit to see if Klasskote does too.

[David Ruff]

KK needs no special consideration for brush vs spray.  I brush it.

[Eric Viglione]

Does Klasskote brush on well or does it need to be sprayed on?

Thanks
Mike

Mike, one of the great qualities of KK is the way it slow cures, using their standard provided thinner. So it will self level if thinned for brushing, as well as giving bugs and dirt plenty of time to find your plane.

The other great quality is the pigment density, especially the reds, blues and blacks. The red covers like a dream! (and also finds its way under any tape pucker you leave like magic. Ugh!)

BUT... to take full advantage of that great pigment density (we are trying to keep our planes light, right?) you really need to spray it on. I haven't done any official testing, maybe you can be the first, but I suspect that brushing on KK could potentially yield a much heavier finish than when sprayed.

A typical weight for me, like to spray the base KK white, is just a fuzzy over an ounce, like 1.25 ounces for a full coat of white (not refrigerator white, just dense enough to cover), sprayed on a large SV11 60 size stunt ship. I can not picture getting that with a brush, but hey, I'd love to know.

I hit the trim colors with an airbrush, and it adds another ~3/4 ounce or so, depending on complexity.

Epoxy clears do yellow over time... so I use a 2 part urethane for the top coat.

If I want it really nice, I'll sand the first coat of clear, and this is a better time to knock down any tape ridges still left, and put on a very thin wet (runs easily if not careful) second coat.

The first coat of clear adds about another 1.25 ounce, but I wet sand off about 1/3 of that, and the second thin coat of clear adds about another 3/4 ounce.

All up, you can do a very light finish this way, but you have to be on the ball and watch your weights every step of the way.

I use a paint stand like most people, I weight the airframe before it goes in the stand. Then, for convenience sake, I weight the airframe with the post from the paint stand, since it makes it easy to just slide out of the stand and weight it in-between coats. You can also weight the post, plate & screws and subtract the 11.2 ounces (what mine weights) from the total weight and know exactly what your airframe weights.

YMMV

EricV

[David Ruff]

I just brushed on an unthinned coat of Klass Kote red over my dope job on my Viking fuselage and tail.

First I applied silkspan over the bare wood.  Next a few coats of nitrate followed by a few coats of clear butyrate.  Then one coat of white butyrate primer.  All dope coats sanded with 400 lightly.

I only let the dope dry about 24 hours.  Then the single coat of KK red.

I will see how that works.  I have brushed KK before.

I will weigh the plane after this coat of KK dries.  I know that before I applied the KK, the plane weighed 22 ounces.  So we shall see what the single coat of KK does for weight.

It looks pretty good; not perfect, but then none of my stuff is perfect.  I am not looking for perfect at this point.

Pictures and weight report next posting.

[David Ruff]

Well here is a photo of the Viking with the KlassKote epoxy red finish.  Remember; this is ONE coat of paint.
I weighed the bird and it only added 0.3 ounces.  I use an electronic postal scale to check weights.

Beautiful finish.  Ultracote on the wings.  Total weight in this photo is 22.3 oz.

As I mentioned; not a perfect finish but good enough for me.

[Eric Viglione]

Well here is a photo of the Viking with the KlassKote epoxy red finish.  Remember; this is ONE coat of paint.
I weighed the bird and it only added 0.3 ounces.  I will be conservative and say it added 1/4 oz.  I use an electronic postal scale to check weights.

Beautiful finish.  Ultracote on the wings.  Total weight in this photo is 22.3 oz.

As I mentioned; not a perfect finish but good enough for me.

That is a really good weight David, and it looks great on your Viking! At first I was pretty surprised with your weight, but not after giving it some thought. The red probably covers the best out of all the colors (yellow KK being the worst, but still way better than yellow dope, and the KK white covers extremely well for white, but still, it's white, and can't compete with the dark KK colors like red for coverage).

The total surface area of your fuselage is probably equal to the outboard top side of the wing, then there is the tail feathers, so lets say all up you painted 1/3 the surface area of the total wing, (a total WAG, don't have real numbers) so if you multiply that times x 3 panels, (3x .3) =.9 ounces for the whole wing, another .3 for the fuse, you are at 1.2 ounces for the entire plane in red KK brushed, which is the same weight for my coat of KK white, a harder to cover color, sprayed on a much bigger plane like my Katana.

With that reasoning, it pretty much goes with what I suspected, that it's not bad at all for brushing, but still would probably yield a lighter finish if sprayed. I also suspect that brushing a fuselage is easier than a wing, since you can hide any unevenness of coverage with all the different angles of the fuselage shape when the light hits it, where as on a big flat surface like a wing, you would probably tend to spend more time back brushing areas to even them out, adding more weight.

Thanks very much for sharing, and be sure to let us know how she flies! If you put a *** Fox .59 in that puppy, you will have my favorite OTS airplane combo.


EricV

***No, it doesn't need the power, it's just FUN, runs great and sounds AWESOME!

[David Ruff]

I acquired a nice .59 but I already drilled the mounts for the Fox .35.
I would like to use the .59.  Maybe later?

[Eric Viglione]

I acquired a nice .59 but I already drilled the mounts for the Fox .35.
I would like to use the .59.  Maybe later?

I am guessing that will not be practical at this time, because the Fox .59 probably has a very different tank shim and I'm guessing your tank is not accessible. Also, it's engine mounts are at the old level, low on the case like an ignition engine, and the beam is a lot wider than a Fox 35. You will probably have to save that one for a purpose built plane.

EricV

[Brett Buck]

That is a really good weight David, and it looks great on your Viking! At first I was pretty surprised with your weight, but not after giving it some thought. The red probably covers the best out of all the colors (yellow KK being the worst, but still way better than yellow dope, and the KK white covers extremely well for white, but still, it's white, and can't compete with the dark KK colors like red for coverage).

     Red actually seems to cover among the worst. The pigment is translucent, and I had to really work to get the red even on my airplane. The same issue with yellow, it just keeps getting darker, the more you put on.   The pigment in white and blue is opaque, so as soon as you get pigment particles over every part of the surface, it is covered and more just adds weight but the color doesn't change.

    1/3 ounce is pretty good for brushing. For reference, all the red on my airplane was somewhere around 3/4 ounce but there was a lot more area.

    Applied properly, I think Klass-Kote is substantially lighter for a very high quality finish, as much as 2-3 ounces compared to dope on a typical 17-18 point finish.  If you do a "stand-off" finish, dope might win out but you will loose shortly later when oil starts soaking in. Even doing it like the old Hobbypoxy "quick-finish" method, I think it looks better than dope and will certainly last longer.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

Many years ago, when I used either Hobby Poxy (meh), Woolsey epoxy boat paint, or K&B Super Poxy, I would mix up the paint in a jar, put the lid on it and let it sit on the bench at room temperature. When 24 hrs was up, I'd add an equal amount of appropriate thinner and spray it on. This resulted in it drying to the touch in about 15-20 minutes. Not that it was then touched, but it prevented problems with dust settling on the surfaces. Anybody do that with Klass Kote?    Steve

   24 hours is way longer than necessary. Klass-kote (as did Hobbypoxy) recommends a "pre-induction" time of about 45 minutes-hour at each mixing step (resin and hardner, wait, thinner, wait some more). Heating it gently can also make it flow smoother, but I would take it easy on that plan.

     It cures more like Hobbypoxy (a few hours to be safe to gently handle) than K&B (an hour and it's pretty hard). In fact, I wouldn't terribly surprised to find that it has the same source as HobbyPoxy, and it's literally the same thing, except without sitting on a shelf somewhere breaking down for 40+ years.

    Brett

[Eric Viglione]

     Red actually seems to cover among the worst. The pigment is translucent, and I had to really work to get the red even on my airplane. The same issue with yellow, it just keeps getting darker, the more you put on.   The pigment in white and blue is opaque, so as soon as you get pigment particles over every part of the surface, it is covered and more just adds weight but the color doesn't change.
    <snip>
     Brett

Wow... funny how 2 people using the same product can walk away with a different take on it. I agree on the white, it does cover amazingly well for white... I tend to thin my white a lot and try to do it like a white wash to save weight and that can effect coverage ability. Maybe you used a different red, or more thinner than I did, like I do on the white? I've been using the KK white and Bright Red over that on both Rapier & Katana. The red went on in one coat. Yes, I could see it going on a little pink if you thinned it a lot and just did a mist coat, but if you put it on with at least a 1mm tip HVLP and not over-thinned, it lays down like crazy for me.

Did you use KK Dark Red, or Bright Red or?? The red on your Infinity seemed a little darker red than mine if I remember... Anywho, it still beats the heck out of dope for coverage, and I agree with the potential for a lighter finish than dope. I've been super impressed with my last 2 planes weights, 65 and 64 ounce, and the 64 ounce Katana is a large PA75 plane (on the Muncie official scale no less), with all that means along with it... if I actually wasn't too lazy to hunt down good contest wood, they would probably have been closer to 60, it's certainly not the paint...

As to how long to let it steep, I've talked to Nate a lot over the years, he felt that for what we are doing with the product, that 1Hr was probably a safer time to let A&B steep together before thinning. I stir the color part A LOT until I don't get any more sludge off the bottom and the whole consistency is the same before mixing A&B,  because the pigment really does settle out quite a bit.

EricV

[Brett Buck]

Did you use KK Dark Red, or Bright Red or?? The red on your Infinity seemed a little darker red than mine if I remember...

  I know this is a paleothread, but in fact, today I used mixed KlassKote Federal Standard Red, which is mostly "bright red" with some "deep red". This covers *vastly* better than Deep Red by itself, a dust coat and two flowed-out coats was plenty, as opposed to endless darkening. The 2006 airplane was Deep Red and had/has coverage issues even over a stark white base.  I put on much, much less color this time with no coverage issues. It couldn't have saved much weight, because the old airplane only had .35 ounces of it, and I would guess the total volume sprayed (into Ted's garage, not necessarily on the airplane...) is about a quarter or what we did before.

   Weight log (2019 so far)

 Primer - 2 ounces
White - 2.5 ounces
Red - pending but <<.35 ounces

Clear is always about 1.5 ounces, so, looking pretty good for paint weight (and looks to be headed towards about 5 ounces less than the target weight, before I have to stick a bunch of weight in the tail to balance it).

    Brett