Need some tips for my squares

[Ron Cribbs]

Hello all,

I have been working my way up to fly beginner stunt and I am having a terrible time with square loops. My problem is when I make the second control input to inverted. I fly inverted with my handle sideways but vertical with every other stunt. So when I go inverted it feels very awkward to have my handle vertical. What happens is my plane when inverted starts to drop so I give up input which brings it around like a normal loop. Basically it look like a two sided square with a half loop. It really feels and looks awkward!

I crashed a very well made plane on contest day practicing this maneuver. I can do several stunts outside the beginner pattern with ease, but this one has me frazzled.

Can anyone provide any input? I realize it's hard to convey this in writing.

Thanks,

Ron

[Tim Wescott]

Hey Ron:

First, D-shaped "squares" are pretty much part and parcel of Intermediate class around here.  If you're to the point of doing squares with four identifiable corners, you're probably in the Intermediate winner's circle, and your friends may even be whispering "Advanced" in your ear.

Second, forgive me if I'm salting your wounds, but I don't practice new things or add big changes to my planes right before a contest unless I'm desperate.  Your experience is an example of why.

Third, try to get into the habit of steering your plane toward the wheels or toward the canopy, not up or down.  It's entirely a matter of how you hold your mouth, but when you're upside down and you think "wheels" that's unambiguous -- when you're upside down and you think "up", that can lead to hesitation or reversed control.

Fourth, try practicing climbs and dives while inverted.  You want your thoughts about what you want the plane to do to be directly connected to your hand -- not going through a box labeled "which way is up?"  If I were your coach and not some guy on the Internet, I'd make you combine this with thinking "wheels" and "canopy".

Finally -- build lots of planes, keep them simple, fly the snot out of them, and don't let the crashing bit get you down.  Crashing happens, and it'll keep happening, but one day it'll stop happening.

[Ron Cribbs]

Hey Ron:

First, D-shaped "squares" are pretty much part and parcel of Intermediate class around here.  If you're to the point of doing squares with four identifiable corners, you're probably in the Intermediate winner's circle, and your friends may even be whispering "Advanced" in your ear.

Second, forgive me if I'm salting your wounds, but I don't practice new things or add big changes to my planes right before a contest unless I'm desperate.  Your experience is an example of why.

Third, try to get into the habit of steering your plane toward the wheels or toward the canopy, not up or down.  It's entirely a matter of how you hold your mouth, but when you're upside down and you think "wheels" that's unambiguous -- when you're upside down and you think "up", that can lead to hesitation or reversed control.

Fourth, try practicing climbs and dives while inverted.  You want your thoughts about what you want the plane to do to be directly connected to your hand -- not going through a box labeled "which way is up?"  If I were your coach and not some guy on the Internet, I'd make you combine this with thinking "wheels" and "canopy".

Finally -- build lots of planes, keep them simple, fly the snot out of them, and don't let the crashing bit get you down.  Crashing happens, and it'll keep happening, but one day it'll stop happening.

Tim,

Thanks for the reply and pointers!

A lot of the things hit home that you wrote about. Both De Hill and Joe Gilbert told me to never try new things on contest day ha! I am over the crash, just want to get better is all. I feel awful as the plane was built by Bob Redmon and given to me last year. Luckily he gave me two contest capable planes.

I am not having a problem with orientation, at least not normally as long as I am in my comfort zone. I will say the crash was attributed to me giving down input on the bottom. So I guess maybe you are correct in a sense.

I will give the wheels and canopy a thing a go and see if that helps. I believe De Hill also mentioned to never bring one plane to a contest as well. I had not crashed anything in quite some time so I was over confident on contest day. My pals were "whispering" intermediate into my ear so that made me feel confident as well lol.

Anyway, against my better judgement I am posting a video of my current skill set. This was last fall and it's the plane I plowed in at Wichita. Since this video I have added the overhead 8 into my repertoire. It will give you an idea of where I am at. Let me apologize for the cuss word in the video. My cameraman was unaware it could pick up sound

[Steve Helmick]

Well...I think this is one of those places where the horizontal handle while inverted is a problem, and a great reason to never suggest doing that to a newbie to inverted flying. Maybe somebody who does that can give you some insight with how they cope with this. I would suggest "dry flying"...a lot...to work out whatever you need to do. I'm really thankful that I didn't learn inverted that way, tho! Personally, I'd not be turning the handle flat for the tops of the squares...not enough time to mess with that nonsense.

Tops of the squares are supposed to be at 45 degrees...but your bottoms are too high. So, make the tops at 60 degrees and the bottoms at 15'. Gives you more time for wiggling the handle. Practise this with "dry flying", at home in the livingroom with the curtains closed.

Since you can fly inverted, I would also suggest going straight for the full pattern.  I've seen very experienced combat fliers enter Beginner, and never understood that. Also would suggest that you fly the pattern every flight, once you get it figured out...less chance of running out of fuel in an awkward spot and crashing. Again, "dry flying" will go a long way toward figuring out the handle wigglings.

Trimming is really important. The better the plane flies, the easier it is to do the tricks. Also, the quieter the engine, the slower the plane seems to fly. Trimming includes the handle and everything from there to the outboard wing tip. The more you fuss around with it, the more you learn. Whether it improves it or makes it worse, you'll learn from it. DO NOT just "try to learn to fly it". About everybody did that crap 40 years ago, and it still doesn't work! Oh, did I mention "dry flying"?  Steve

[Ron Cribbs]

So what's your take on dry flying? 

That is something I need to do more of.  Hopefully I can compensate for the handle. I have seen others do it. I mostly taught myself how to fly so it's my own fault for the bad habit. I was crashing every time I went inverted until I started tilting the handle.

Full pattern you say? That may be a tall order.  I am wanting to get a contest under my belt before I go down that road. Again you are not the first one to mention that. Something to ponder!

Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

Ron

[Tim Wescott]

My take on the "bottoms too high" is that it's easier to learn to fly the pattern if you're flying and not rebuilding, and that it's easier to fly a correct maneuver too high and then bring it down than it is to fly a too-small maneuver with the top at the right spot.

So you may want to intentionally fly your "bottom line" at 15 feet or whatever, and put your maneuver tops at 60 degrees as Steve suggests.  Then any time you notice that your bottoms are always well above grade, move the whole pattern down.  This is what I did, and now I get snarky comments from judges about flying too low.

[Steve Helmick]

Yes, exactly. 15' bottoms and 60 deg. tops will give plenty room to do a square that's square-ish, yet keep the airplane(s) intact. There is one question, however, and that is how well trimmed is your plane? Because at 60 deg., there may not be a ton of line tension IF your plane isn't pretty well trimmed. Strangely enough, when the airplane is well trimmed (and the engine is well silenced), everything seems to happen pretty slowly. Sometime, even shorter lines will make the airplane seem slower, tho we know it isn't.  Steve

[Jeff Traxler]

Hi Ron,
      I have just made the climb from Beg. to Int. over the last couple seasons and won Int. at the Nats this year.I made a bunch of rounds,squares,and triangles out of colored construction paper.Green for insides,red for outsides when I was learning my shapes.I had them ALL over the house,shop,car,ect.I burns the shape in your mind(At least for me) and made it easier for me.I volunteered to help at the last 2 team trials and observing and hangin' out with the best of the best will help as well.When I got past pointing a good aircraft straight at the ground and started the outside sq. I would do 2 inside,2 laps,2 outside,repeat for the whole flight.Another thing I still do is alternate a verticle climb to 45 degrees fly 1 lap and dive vertically to the pullout.That has helped me with my sq. bottoms.
     I DO recommend dry flying as well...........My electric ships run the same EVERY time and far more is spent learning,not trying to get that perfect "Run",worrying about line tension,ect.These things have helped mine and hopefully it will help your sq.s as well,Trax

[john e. holliday]

Hey, I was beaten many a time by individuals that their bottoms were well over 10 foot and the 45's were at 60.   When asked why they kept beating me, was told they fly much smoother.   Guess that is why I fly just for the fun of it now.

[Brett Buck]

Hey, I was beaten many a time by individuals that their bottoms were well over 10 foot and the 45's were at 60.   When asked why they kept beating me, was told they fly much smoother.   Guess that is why I fly just for the fun of it now.

    I am not sure why this is discouraging. The judges have to weigh one sort of error vs another. They were telling your obvious mistakes were larger than most others. This is information you can take advantage of.

  What I see time after time in INT/ADV is people trying to hit the right dimensions and jamming all the corners without considering the side-effects, then when asking about why they aren't getting good scores, they get offended and don't like the answer. David Fitzgerald can hit the all the dimensions AND fly smoothly, but that's because his airplane is vastly better than almost all of them, and he has a lot more skill.

   Many times INT/ADV fliers are better off not trying to hit the dimensions because their airplanes and skills are incapable of doing it without causing far greater mistakes. Flying big and smooth is usually an improvement - for a while. Later, as you get in tougher competition, it will kill you, but you have to optimize your score given your skills.

   Brett

[Ron Cribbs]

Lot's of good advice here, even if I had to read around a bit.

I cheated this past week and flew a Ringmaster and a really old Fox .35. It doesn't do anything real well, but it sure was fun.

I'll keep on practicing and I am sure I will get it. I'll probably post back when I try to pull of inverted pullouts. That too is going to be a handle issue.

Ron

[Brett Buck]

Lot's of good advice here, even if I had to read around a bit.

I cheated this past week and flew a Ringmaster and a really old Fox .35. It doesn't do anything real well, but it sure was fun.

I'll keep on practicing and I am sure I will get it. I'll probably post back when I try to pull of inverted pullouts. That too is going to be a handle issue.

   At some point you do just have to practice and learn the necessary skills. I would suggest, before a dozen people tell you otherwise, that the "sideways handle" issue is a pretty big problem that is probably worth solving even if it costs you some time and crashes now. You can learn to fly that way and do better than you are now, but as others have found, it is ultimately going to make it a lot harder.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

   At some point you do just have to practice and learn the necessary skills. I would suggest, before a dozen people tell you otherwise, that the "sideways handle" issue is a pretty big problem that is probably worth solving even if it costs you some time and crashes now. You can learn to fly that way and do better than you are now, but as others have found, it is ultimately going to make it a lot harder.

I second that.  It's easier to fix a mistake in the foundation before the rest of the house is built.

[Howard Rush]

Well...I think this is one of those places where the horizontal handle while inverted is a problem, and a great reason to never suggest doing that to a newbie to inverted flying.

Some pictures from a contest last week. Captions:
Upright
Inverted
Upright
Inverted

[Brett Buck]

Some pictures from a contest last week. Captions:
Upright
Inverted
Upright
Inverted

   I didn't say it couldn't be done (and my mentor does it too). I said it made it more difficult.

    Brett

[Dan McEntee]

   I learned inverted by always think "top control" and "bottom control". No matter what the attitude of the airplane, it still has a top and bottom, much like the canopy and landing gear already mentioned. I THINK I hold my hand at a slightly tilted angle when flying inverted and doing outside maneuvers. If I get to fly this weekend, I'll have to pay attention to what I do. The best advice I give up and coming pilots is to work on using all of your field of vision and peripheral vision to know where you are and where the ground and 45 degrees is. I finally got over some humps when I figured that out. I still get cases of "tunnel vision" from time to time and tend to focus on just the airplane, then you tend to try and time the maneuvers. I find that if I can relax and focus and open up my field of vision, I can sort of see the shape of the maneuver in the sky and fly the model through the shape. Kind of hard to describe. The best analogy I can offer is hitting a nail with a hammer. If you watch the hammer while swinging it, you often miss the nail. But if you focus on the head of the nail, you'll hit it just about every time. Or like a baseball player who is hitting well will tell you that he is "seeing the ball well." This is something that also takes practice, and when I can get some practice and my head is in the right place, I can see the shape and score pretty well. If I'm rushed, nervous or over tired, it's back to tunnel vision and the airplane is all over the place!
  Good luck, have fun, and stick with it!
  Dan McEntee

[Howard Rush]

I came across the pictures yesterday when I was picking some pictures for Wynn Paul.  Interesting that Igor holds his handle sideways, but opposite how Orestes holds his.  I have no idea how I hold my handle when flying upside down, and I don't intend to look, lest it make me worry about it.  I'm pretty sure I don't turn it sideways at the top of a square loop.

[Balsa Butcher]

I think there are two issues here: One: How one holds the handle while flying inverted. Not rotating is ideal but many expert fliers rotate their wrist once during this maneuver, either to the left (palm down) or more commonly, to the right (palm up). The wrist is returned to the upright position at the inititiaion of the outside loops. Second Issue: Rotating your hand (wrist) randomly while performing squares. This habit is more detrimental to maneuver shape than the one partial rotation during inverted flight. It is something I battle against and a bad habit that few, possibly no, top expert fliers have.

[Brett Buck]

I came across the pictures yesterday when I was picking some pictures for Wynn Paul.  Interesting that Igor holds his handle sideways, but opposite how Orestes holds his.  I have no idea how I hold my handle when flying upside down, and I don't intend to look, lest it make me worry about it.  I'm pretty sure I don't turn it sideways at the top of a square loop.

  Plenty of people do, or try to. Or in Jim's case, did. Jim was a classic case trying to line up his hand with the airplane as he went through maneuvers, and it was just about impossible. He untrained himselfe out of it, and out of the "relaxed grip". Now he is fully competitive.

    Brett