"The Great Viking Controversy"!

[Avaiojet]

I was digging around looking for the original "Ares" text/font and found this.

http://roly2011.wordpress.com/2010/10/13/mars-airplane/

[Dane Martin]

you should build it anyway Charles! lol


ps.... shoot i just realized there's no lettering on that pdf! sorry

[Bill Little]

Those are the plans published in 1960, but it is not the model that won the '59 Walker Trophy.  Neither was the Ambroid kitted version.  The Brodak kit seems to have gotten it pretty close.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Robert Zambelli]

Buy the Brodak kit.

Bill Werwage visited John personally to review it.

If Brodak sells it, you can be sure it's correct.

   Bob Z.

[Jim Kraft]

Like the Viking?

[Robert Zambelli]

So, tell me what's wrong with the Viking.

  Bob Z.

[Balsa Butcher]

Viking may not be a good example for this discussion. It was  carried over from the Control Line Classics line. Although some changes were made it was reproduced pretty much as as Tony kitted it. That was when Brodak was just getting started in the kit business and I think one should give him a pass on that one. 

[Paul Smith]

In general,

A first rate builder and competitor designs and builds a model to win contests.  He intentionally does things the hard way to gain advantage.

Then if a kit maker buys the design.  He modifies it to fit his tooling and fit in the box and be something that the customer can assemble.  In most cases both the prototype and the kit make the cutoff date for the event.  Be glad anybody build planes and enters contests.

[Jim Kraft]

I have no problem if the kit maker would just say it is a reasonable facsimile of the original, but the Viking is nowhere near. The front end is longer and way narrower than the original, and as said above the wing is sheeted on the leading edge back to top and bottom spars instead of no sheeting an internal spars. When you look at the original all you see is the top and bottom of the ribs from the leading edge to the trailing edge. I understand why these changes were made, but they should be documented on the kit so that it is not confused with being a replica. After a while so many liberties are taken that it is not the same plane anymore. Just my 2 cents.

[Steve Helmick]

We shouldn't mention the "Original" Veco Tomahawk either?  Steve

[Mike Keville]

...or the original Flying Clown and Super Clown, which did not have spars or LE sheeting???

[john e. holliday]

Well there were two versions of the Tomahawk.   The original I had as one of my first profiles and the later when the company changed I had the later version that was produced and got my son his first trophy.  I now have both versions from Brodak and they are close as I remember.   I also had a Viking kit that did not have any sheeting except the center section.   The back half of the ribs had kind of an S shape to them from the covering being so tight.  But, to me the kits were as close as I could see and I was not a nit picker.

[Robert Zambelli]

Hi, All.
Thanks for the interesting comments on the Viking. I had no idea of it being embroiled in so much controversy but maybe I can shed some light on the issue.
I met Gary Tultz (RIP) in 1996 and we talked at length about Old Time Stunt, as we were both interested in many of the old designs. He said he would mail me some copies of plans such that I could build something for my OK Super 60. I had never flown or even run a spark engine.
Two sets of (Viking) plans arrived. One was labeled “Drawn (or designed) by a guy named Siracusa” or something to that effect but had no kit information. It had a sheeted lead edge.
The other, which had a solid lead edge had some sort of kit information, possibly “F&B Models” printed on it. Understand that it’s been quite a while and I can’t recall all the details.
I decided to build the plane using the info on the sheeted L/E version but I built it with an I-Beam type wing.
In 1997, at the first Fly-In, I met John Brodak and when he told me of intentions to build some Old Time kits, I suggested the Viking. Since I had given both sets of plans away, I suggested that he get the originals from Gary. A few years later, I was visiting John and we test flew the kit prototype which, as I recall, had the sheeted L/E. I assumed then that Gary had sent him the plans. It was powered by a Fox 35, flew well and, as far as I know, is still on display in the Brodak Hobby Shop.
When I first flew my I-Beam version, I had to add almost one ounce of tail weight to get it to fly properly. This was of course, due to the weight of the engine, metal spinner, coil, condenser, tank and battery pack. When I refinished it a few years later, I modified the nose by moving the engine back 7/8 inch, thus eliminating the need for tail weight. Since I run it on a gasoline/oil mix, I only need around 1 ¾ ounces of fuel.
The Viking has been entered  at VSC, KOI, Brodaks, GSCB, Huntersville, Philly Flyers and quite a number of other contests. I have a good number of trophies to prove its capabilities. It was never protested.
After well over 500 flights, it’s still a joy to fly and the old OK just keeps chugging along.
Bob Z.

[Balsa Butcher]

So the Brodak Viking is not the CLC Viking...go info, Thanks! FWIW: My CLC Oriental became the logo-plane of CLC, even immortalized on a company T-shirt. Both are long gone but those were fun times.

[Jim Kraft]

Here are a couple of pics of my Viking done from plans traced from an original F&B kit. I have seen some pictures of yours Bob, and I think it is pretty close to mine except for the I beam wing. Yours looks to have the wide fuse with the short nose just like the original. The Brodak Viking has a longer nose to accommodate a 4" fuel tank, and much narrower fuse for later glow engines. I have set mine on the flight line next to the Brodak version and they look like two different models. I don't know how they got that way, I just know they are. Same with the Sterling Mustang as the original had internal spars where the Brodak version has top and bottom spars. I have no problem with that except the changes should be documented on the plan in my opinion. Several years ago I built a Veco Tom Tom from a kit where the same liberty's were taken, but the plans were all marked as to the original construction so that you could build it either way. Oh! I have never complained about flying against any of the Brodak versions. Most just do no know the difference and that is fine with me.

[Robert Zambelli]

Hi, Jim - really great information.

Could you post the "numbers" from yours?

Wingspan, tailspan, moments, weight RTF?

I mentioned that I shortened the nose on mine 7/8 inch from the plans but I'm now curious as to what other differences there are.

  Thanks, Bob Z.
ps - maybe we should rename this topic "The Great Viking Controversy"!

[Avaiojet]

ps - maybe we should rename this topic "The Great Viking Controversy"!

I can do that.

[Jim Kraft]

Thanks Charles. We did not mean to steel your thread. Sorry about that.

Bob;I am just envious of your Viking helmet horns and all. That is just a hoot. I just measured my plans and although they are getting rather old and may not be exact within an 1/8" in four feet or so I think they are still fairly accurate.

Overall length - 33 1/2"
Wing length - 51"
Wing cord -11"
Wing area 550 Sq."
Wing tips-1/4" thick with no bracing except spars go into slots in tip.
Trailing edge of wing to leading edge of stab-8 1/4"
Front of firewall to front of wing-2 3/4"
Fuse is 3" wide from firewall to front of cockpit
Motor mounts are 1/2"X1/2"
stab span-20 1/4"

[Randy Cuberly]

Hi, All.
Thanks for the interesting comments on the Viking. I had no idea of it being embroiled in so much controversy but maybe I can shed some light on the issue.
I met Gary Tultz (RIP) in 1996 and we talked at length about Old Time Stunt, as we were both interested in many of the old designs. He said he would mail me some copies of plans such that I could build something for my OK Super 60. I had never flown or even run a spark engine.
Two sets of (Viking) plans arrived. One was labeled “Drawn (or designed) by a guy named Siracusa” or something to that effect but had no kit information. It had a sheeted lead edge.
The other, which had a solid lead edge had some sort of kit information, possibly “F&B Models” printed on it. Understand that it’s been quite a while and I can’t recall all the details.
I decided to build the plane using the info on the sheeted L/E version but I built it with an I-Beam type wing.
In 1997, at the first Fly-In, I met John Brodak and when he told me of intentions to build some Old Time kits, I suggested the Viking. Since I had given both sets of plans away, I suggested that he get the originals from Gary. A few years later, I was visiting John and we test flew the kit prototype which, as I recall, had the sheeted L/E. I assumed then that Gary had sent him the plans. It was powered by a Fox 35, flew well and, as far as I know, is still on display in the Brodak Hobby Shop.
When I first flew my I-Beam version, I had to add almost one ounce of tail weight to get it to fly properly. This was of course, due to the weight of the engine, metal spinner, coil, condenser, tank and battery pack. When I refinished it a few years later, I modified the nose by moving the engine back 7/8 inch, thus eliminating the need for tail weight. Since I run it on a gasoline/oil mix, I only need around 1 ¾ ounces of fuel.
The Viking has been entered  at VSC, KOI, Brodaks, GSCB, Huntersville, Philly Flyers and quite a number of other contests. I have a good number of trophies to prove its capabilities. It was never protested.
After well over 500 flights, it’s still a joy to fly and the old OK just keeps chugging along.
Bob Z.

Bob,
I don't for a minute doubt the veracity of what you said, but would mention that something is very different than my experience with the Brodak Viking Kit and the VSC Management folks.
When the Brodak kit first appeared, I bought one.  Lou Wolgast had built and was flying one of Tony's kits and I had flown it and liked it.

Then I noticed that the wing airfoil in the Brodak kit was different than what I had assumed was the original (what Lou was flying that had no sheeting on the leading edge, and what appeared on the plans from that kit).  Concerned I asked the VSC folks ( I fly with these people all the time) if it made a difference if the leading edge was sheeted in the Brodak kit and was told positively YES because it was an alteration of the airfoil profile and could not be allowed under PAMPA Old Time Stunt rules.  I gave the kit away to a non-contest flier who just wanted it to fly!

Now you tell me that yours was allowed!!! Phooey!  I guess rules is not rules...or something to that effect.

I couldn't care less at this point as I have decided NOT to fly OT again ever because I can't concentrate on two different stunt events at the same contest anymore...weak minded I guess from beating my head against the wall  for too many years.

Randy Cuberly

[Robert Zambelli]

Hi, Randy. Good points but keep in mind that I built my Viking with an I-Beam wing which is much closer to the original lead edge configuration. I cannot comment on the actual airfoil because I did not compare the two on the plans Gary sent me. I just used the airfoil on the sheeted lead edge version.
Regarding the rules, since OTS is not (as far as I know) an ama event, the local CD or sponsoring club makes the rules. I believe that most of the clubs in the northeast used GSCB rules and I don't know how strict they are.

I've flown a lot of OTS but I have never seen a plane disqualified for non-compliance.

  Bob Z.

[Robert Zambelli]

Info from Jim Kraft's Viking:
Overall length - 33 1/2"
Wing length - 51"
Wing cord -11"
Wing area 550 Sq."
Wing tips-1/4" thick with no bracing except spars go into slots in tip.
Trailing edge of wing to leading edge of stab-8 1/4"
Front of firewall to front of wing-2 3/4"
Fuse is 3" wide from firewall to front of cockpit
Motor mounts are 1/2"X1/2"
stab span-20 1/4"
 
Here are the numbers from my Viking:
Wing span: 51 1/2"
Tail span: 20"
Fuselage width at nose: 2 7/8"
Front of wing to front of nose ring: 6"
Front of wing to front firewall: 2 3/4"
Overall length (from nose ring to rear of rudder): 31"
Chord: 11 1/2"
Rear of wing to front of stabilzer: 8"
Weight (with everything but fuel): 46.6 ounces

Bob Z.

[EddyR]

I have built quite a few vikings all from the original plans. I will get them out and measure them. Here are some things I notice that every one changes the stab and elevator is square on the tips and the landing gear it canted forward at 45 degrees. I have sheeted the first 1.25" of the leading edge as I could never come up with the plans large balsa leading edge. Also most people make the wing span bigger than the plans.

Here is one I built many years ago and it is quite illeagal

[Tony Drago]

Would like to add my 2 cents worth.
  I bought the F&B Viking kit at a Meca collecto in Fresno Cal back in the mid  80's. I decided to kit it and add it to my CLC model kit line,so it could go heads up against the Zilch. I kitted the first run as per the F&B kit.
 I believe the first run of those kits only had the original F&B kit plans. Sorry to say i did rush the kit into production to get it out there.I was sorry i did.
 The F&B kit had a lot of flaws in it that were carried over in the first run. (SORRY)
 I then had the plans drawn up and tried to keep the kit as close to the original kit as possible. I did for safety reasons, redesigned  the front
   nose of the kit and had a ply fuselage doubler added to it and extended the balsa fuselages sides out past the motor mounts. The original nose of the Viking was a accident waiting to happen,a poor design. It had to be corrected. As per the kit the preshap leading edge and trailing edges were notched like the F&B kit. No L.E. sheeting was every use in the Factory run of F&B Viking kits. If so,then i would have made the kit that way..If you only knew how many Dremel table saw belts i went through. At on time i was notching so many L.E & T.E's the motor started to smoke. I looked under the saw and the whole motor was buried in balsa dust.
 One must keep in mind back in the day a lot of kit manufactures used odd size wood that you can't get today unless you have it special cutl $$$$. So
 we were stuck what was being produced at the time. It was close so it was used for the kits.

[Tony Drago]

Would like to add my 2 cents worth.
  I bought the F&B Viking kit at a Meca collecto in Fresno Cal back in the mid  80's. I decided to kit it and add it to my CLC model kit line,so it could go heads up against the Zilch. I kitted the first run as per the F&B kit.
 I believe the first run of those kits only had the original F&B kit plans. Sorry to say i did rush the kit into production to get it out there.I was sorry i did.
 The F&B kit had a lot of flaws in it that were carried over in the first run. (SORRY)
 I then had the plans drawn up and tried to keep the kit as close to the original kit as possible. I did for safety reasons, redesigned  the front
   nose of the kit and had a ply fuselage doubler added to it and extended the balsa fuselages sides out past the motor mounts. The original nose of the Viking was a accident waiting to happen,a poor design. It had to be corrected. As per the kit the preshap leading edge and trailing edges were notched like the F&B kit. No L.E. sheeting was every use in the Factory run of F&B Viking kits. If so,then i would have made the kit that way..If you only knew how many Dremel table saw belts i went through. At on time i was notching so many L.E & T.E's the motor started to smoke. I looked under the saw and the whole motor was buried in balsa dust.
 One must keep in mind back in the day a lot of kit manufactures used odd size wood that you can't get today unless you have it special cut $$$$.  
  So i used what was being produced at the time. It was close so it was used for the kits.

[phil c]

I have no problem if the kit maker would just say it is a reasonable facsimile of the original, but the Viking is nowhere near. The front end is longer and way narrower than the original, and as said above the wing is sheeted on the leading edge back to top and bottom spars instead of no sheeting an internal spars. When you look at the original all you see is the top and bottom of the ribs from the leading edge to the trailing edge. I understand why these changes were made, but they should be documented on the kit so that it is not confused with being a replica. After a while so many liberties are taken that it is not the same plane anymore. Just my 2 cents.

Take a look at the original article for the Victory.  The Originals were built with long and short noses and long and short tails, depending on what Don thought the judges would be looking for- fast and daring or slow and precise, big engine versus smaller engine,  and most appeared to be built between a crash on Monday and a contest on Sunday.  No reason to think the Viking was any different.  that was the way a model was "designed" around 1950.  Try something, then try something else.

[Shug Emery]

Thought I would throw this on the thread. Was just handed this Viking to try some OTS with. Wayne Willy (wwwarbird) built it and it was just hanging around at Keith Sandbergs home. Keith talked me through the pattern and asked Wayne if I could give it a go with the Viking. Wayne said to go for it. Whoooooo buddy)))
The OTS pattern was fun and quite a contrast to the PAMPA Stunt pattern.
I feel very fortunate to have a couple fellers like them trust me to give this Viking a go and slap the lines on and have at it. I may even wear vintage clothing whilst flying the viking.
The KB runs great. Real great.
Shug the Blessed

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[Mark Scarborough]

you might want to carefully examine the crack eminating from the right cockpit opening,, it could prove terminal,,

[Shug Emery]

you might want to carefully examine the crack eminating from the right cockpit opening,, it could prove terminal,,

Checked.....really just paint cracks from a previous wing into feild box cur-ruffle. They have been filled with CA and seem solid.
Thanks...good eye!
Shug

[David Ruff]

I am finishing up a Brodak Viking kit.  Estimating the finished weight to be about 35 oz.  I am using a Fox .35 for power.  Same as the plans show.

[Don Hutchinson AMA5402]

Will post this again here as it may shed some light on the lack of leading edge sheeting on the Viking. Sorry about the double attachment, didn't know if it went on the first try.

[David M Johnson]

I almost hate to admit this but a few years ago I was given Lou Wolgasts old blue Viking.  While it is in almost one piece I can attest that there are a front and rear spar and no sheeting on the wing.