Author Topic: ASP 061 on sale. (Read 8404 times)

John Rist · « **on:** July 30, 2014, 08:41:14 PM »

ASP 061 on sale. It is a RC. Is ASP any good?

http://www.hobbypartz.com/72p-ap061a.html

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2014, 07:27:31 AM »

I bought 2 so I could get free shipping... I am building a "white lightening" from Hip Pocket to put it on with a 1oz clunk tank, exhaust pressure uniflow.

I took one most of the way apart: very clean inside. Very simple carburetor, it is a rotating drum that is threaded onto the end of the spray pipe. The needle adjusts and seats into the end of the pipe, and as the engine throttles the needle reduces fuel flow as well the drum reducing air flow. There is no airbleed, just an eccentric head screw to stop the throttle. The rectangular hole in the crankshaft has the corners round. The piston/cylinder fit is very tight as is expected with this type of engine, lots of pinch at the top of the stroke. I can only rotate the engine though 1/2 turn without a prop. The head is a clamp-on glow plug, and a Cox style finned clamp ring.

I was disappointed as the website picture has a Cox style spinner with a hex head cap bolt, while the engines both have a stud that is part of the crankshaft. This is an obvious point of failure that will junk the engine if the shaft becomes bent or broken.

I wired the throttle open by passing a piece of soft steel wire around the carb body with the ends through the two holes in the linkage arm. I then bend the wire over and curled it, clipping it off when tight, then adjusted the eccentric screw stop. The longer hole gets the end pulling the throttle open.

Give me a few weeks and I'll have an opinion on it running, I hope.

I have an ASP .15 that runs very well, but has not been flown (and has no plans to fly anytime soon). 2 flip start out of the box, and just as clean inside.

Phil

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2014, 02:27:23 PM »

These engines have superb ABC cylinders and pistons, they drop straight into a Norvel engine. I have found the rest of the engine bits to be a bit iffy. Having said that, if you want these for sports flying, then they are great little engines. If you try to hop them up for high revving combat, then they are suspect. I have 7 or 8 of them and for the low prices, they are a good buy.
The guy that made the C/L venturis has now stopped making them. You can machine up an adapter bush and use a Texas timers Cox TD 0.049 needle valve set up and then buy a Cox TD 0.049 venturi from Bernie at Cox International to complete the conversion. Or just wire open the R/C carb! I have some photos somewhere showing my C/L conversion.

Andrew.

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2014, 12:50:24 PM »

I scored a couple norvel .061 engines and the similarities are uncanny. It looks like the ASP is a direct copy, without the attention to detail... Everything is in the same position, and the dimensions I could measure easily were effectively identical.

I have paint on my test airplane. I need to cover the wings and H-stab as I carved large holes in them to gain balance. It was supposed to be a White Lightening, but it only bears a resemblance now. The rudder is 1/2 what it used to be, the fuse is 1 1/2 inches shorter...Still looks good.

My brother is supposed to be over next weekend so maybe I can fly this with engine swaps! Cox TD vs ASP vs Norvel! (probably not though, it is getting the ASP, and if it cooperates that is what it will fly on)

Phil

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2014, 06:16:19 PM »

What do the ASP engine use for glow plugs? Same as Norvel?
Thanks a lot,
Dan McEntee

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2014, 09:57:55 PM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on August 18, 2014, 06:16:19 PM

What do the ASP engine use for glow plugs? Same as Norvel?
Thanks a lot,
Dan McEntee

They both use drop in inserts, same as I have on some of my Cox .049's. The clamp ring interchanges perfectly between the Norvel, the ASP and a Cox, the inserts have a different diameter post so they are more specific. The hole probably can be reamed out on the smaller size as clamping the rim of the insert is the important part.

Phil

ray copeland · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2014, 02:15:40 PM »

Phil, I am pretty sure the smaller plugs are a colder type, like the original norvels. Easier to flood and harder to start in cold weather.

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2014, 04:00:59 PM »

Well, tried bench running today and this engine is officially in the running for the most cantankerous engine I own. Not even a burst on prime with 1/2 hour of flipping...

I will put a Cox head on it for my next try.

Phil

kenneth cook · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2014, 08:22:54 PM »

If your using the stock aluminum head gasket, I would quickly get rid of it. Ken

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2014, 10:43:57 PM »

Quote from: kenneth cook on August 30, 2014, 08:22:54 PM

If your using the stock aluminum head gasket, I would quickly get rid of it. Ken

I had 2 copper gaskets in there too. I was not getting fuel bubbles at the head when I wet the head/cylinder joint. I'll toss the aluminum gasket, I have had a jaundiced eye on it, so to speak.

I was using near fresh batteries - I benched the OS25LA on my ARF flite streak just before with 3 fresh D cells, so I doubt I was short on driving power.

Phil

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2014, 02:31:55 PM »

Hi Phil,
It sounds as though you have a particularly crap engine there. I have always had no problem with starting these engines as the piston / liner sets have all been excellently manufactured. They are the best part of the engine by far. Have you used an electric finger? The crankshaft bushing clearances are all over the place. I have sent a couple back that were very a very loose fit. Maybe you have one that is very tight in this dept and this could be the cause of poor starting, although an electric starter should cure this.
I am a bit baffled by your problem. A cox glow head might help, or better still a Doug Galbreath head should be even better with a Nelson turbo plug. I have found the merlin heads to be good too.

Regards,

Andrew..

Larry Renger · « **Reply #11 on:** September 07, 2014, 07:36:57 PM »

Dissasemble the engine completly. Clean and totally dry the shaft and case. Insert the shaft in the case and give it a spin. If it doesn't go around at least one full rev, it is way too tight. To fix the problem, chuck a headless 3mm screw in your drill or, better, drillpress, and thread the shaft onto it. Use 800 grit paper with oil to burnish the shaft up and down for a few seconds, clean it and recheck it in the case. Repeat until it goes around at least twice. Then use Simichrome on a paper towel to bring the finish to a mirror polish. You will love the result!

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #12 on:** September 07, 2014, 08:06:16 PM »

No electric finger here. Well...not yet anyways. I have on order. Two actually. A 1/2a size from Sullivan and a standard size (Hobbico 90). I have a 4k 4s lipo for at the field (now a happy misorder), need the correct connector for that monster too.

The shaft appears to have an integral stud so I can't screw something in. Rather sucks. I have means to sleeve the shaft so I can load it in the drill press. The liner is quite tight, I couldn't even flip it over at first, oil + flipping loosened it up quite a bit but it still feels extra tight, even after a short run. I'll look into tear down and dressing, sounds like a good idea.

I did get a short (1/2 oz) run out of it on the Cox bee head, 3 copper Cox gaskets, Champion 25%. I could not restart. Boy was my shoulder on fire after that. Everything is on hold till the electric fingers are here.

Phil

Larry Renger · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2014, 08:19:18 AM »

You won't hurt the shaft by chucking it directly into a drill. It doesn't need to be all that tight for what you are doing and it is hardened anyway.

Use a torch to warm the cylinder before starting a new Norvel or Wasp.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 08, 2014, 10:57:35 AM »

I don't have any of the ASP versions but do own quite a few Norvel .049 and .061..... The cold pinch at TDC requires the new engine to be pre heated a few seconds with a heat gun and then run hard and fast with a small diameter prop to break in the engine. I am a heat cycle believer. After 5 total heat (1 to 1.5 minute run then cool back to ambient) cycles all my Norvels are first flip starters ready to fly my 1/2a combat planes

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2014, 06:22:03 AM »

Hi Fred,
I certainly don't disagree with your break in routine for the Norvels. The ASP is a direct clone for the Norvel engine, in so far as virtually everything can be swopped around between them. The ASP Wasp is a true ABC piston/liner and from what I can remember, the Norvel set up is some sort of ceramic system. I assume Al/Al2O3 then AL for the piston. The run in instructions for the Wasp are a bit odd, but I always carried them out to the letter and the results have been excellent.
I am very puzzled at the lack of starting on the Wasps. Worst I had to contend with was a mild heating of the liner on a couple of Wasps. My best bet would be on a tightly fitting crank. My experience has been that the Wasp P/Ls are top class, the rest of the engine is typical of poor Chinese quality control, the other fits and finishes being very dodgy.

Andrew.

P.S. I purchased rather too many Wasps when the Norvel's disappeared from the scene. Now they are back, I wouldn't buy a Wasp. But I have the damn things so I may as well use them!

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #16 on:** September 14, 2014, 01:29:41 PM »

Electric fingers are nice.

Everything was going swimmingly then the engine suddenly cut and would not restart. Turns out a carb screw fell out. I have to conclude this is my own fault, since this is the engine I had mostly stripped down.

Now, what size are these screws and where do I get replacements? (no I haven't looked in the paperwork yet)

Phil

kenneth cook · « **Reply #17 on:** September 14, 2014, 02:41:23 PM »

Phil go to the R/C car section in a local hobby shop. Dubro sells them in a package of 4. They have very small metric screw sizes. I replace the slotted screws holding the cylinder down with socket heads that I purchase in the car section as well. ken

Bill Adair · « **Reply #18 on:** September 14, 2014, 07:20:25 PM »

Phil,

Nothing you did caused those screws to fall out!

My first carb screws fell out during bench runs, and I later found out those Chinese screws are not tempered. Checked my other new AP Wasps, and found none of those screws were more than finger tight! Seems the Chinese engine builders must have stripped enough of them to learn they can't be tightened like US screws!

Mine now run fine (and turn the same rpm) with a single 2X56 machine screw (US made) all the way through the carb throat. That's the same way Norvel mounted all their carbs, and I can't fault the way they run.

All I had to do was chase the threads in the carb throat with a 2X56 tap, and use low profile heads on the screws to clear the Wasp throttle levers.

Bill

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #19 on:** September 14, 2014, 07:45:55 PM »

Quote from: Bill Adair on September 14, 2014, 07:20:25 PM

Phil,

Nothing you did caused those screws to fall out!

My first carb screws fell out during bench runs, and I later found out those Chinese screws are not tempered. Checked my other new AP Wasps, and found none of those screws were more than finger tight! Seems the Chinese engine builders must have stripped enough of them to learn they can't be tightened like US screws!

Mine now run fine (and turn the same rpm) with a single 2X56 machine screw (US made) all the way through the carb throat. That's the same way Norvel mounted all their carbs, and I can't fault the way they run.

All I had to do was chase the threads in the carb throat with a 2X56 tap, and use low profile heads on the screws to clear the Wasp throttle levers.

Bill

Good to know the screws are garbage. I wasn't feeling that upset, more annoyed. Still annoyed, but surprisingly less so. Sounds like I might want to replace the screws holding the cylinder on just for good measure. Everything was reasonably tight on this engine, or they used locktite.

Oh, I forgot to mention I was getting a real cool 4-2-4 break when I tilted the model up at certain needle settings.

Phil

John Crocker · « **Reply #20 on:** September 14, 2014, 09:30:17 PM »

The long needle adjustment knob can break the carb set up on these when set up on a beam mount on an inverted crash. I took to using JB weld to hold it in place. That way when I crash inverted, it would break away instead of tearing up the engine body. Works great.

Bill Adair · « **Reply #21 on:** September 14, 2014, 11:13:40 PM »

Phil,

The two I broke in on the bench would both do something like a 4-2-4 break, but it was when I touched the needle valves! Even sealing the needles with fuel line didn't help.

Converting to control line venturi(s) cured the problem.

Two of mine are broke in now, but not flown. The cylinder screws are still holding, but that doesn't mean much.

Larry Renger would be the one to ask, as he has flown these Wasp engines regularly, and seems to like them.

Bill

Bill Adair · « **Reply #22 on:** September 14, 2014, 11:23:16 PM »

John,

Good idea for anyone using these AP Wasp engines, with the carbs still attached.

One of mine has a Cox Tee Dee .049 venturi screwed into a threaded aluminum bushing. The bushing is held in the case with JB
Weld, and seems to be holding fine.

JB Weld is rated at 600F for a maximum of ten minutes (which really surprised me), and the intake area is probably the coolest part of the engines we use.

Bill

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #23 on:** September 16, 2014, 09:32:17 AM »

So I went to the local big box store yesterday (Menards) and they had a 2Mx.4x 20mm screw in the drawer, 2 per pack for $0.59. I felt lucky.

Last night I thought "How would this be made, would they go old-school and drill then tap from one side all the way through with one jigging, or would they drill and tap each hole separately as the newfangled CNC machines are capable of?" And "If the holes were drilled and tapped in separate operations what is the chance the threads index together?"

This morning I pulled the remaining screw and started feeding the 20mm screw in from one side. It indexed to the threads on the other side! I feel LUCKY! Now I need to pull the screw, cut it, dress the end, and put it back in as it is about 10mm too long.

Phil

kenneth cook · « **Reply #24 on:** September 16, 2014, 12:48:57 PM »

Here was my adapter which I tapped the case for 2-56 set screws to hold my adapter in. The adapter uses a o-ring under it and it's also a tight fit. And no picture wonderful

Bill Adair · « **Reply #25 on:** September 16, 2014, 03:58:55 PM »

I've also had good luck finding metric screws at ACE hardware. I may look for those socket head cylinder screws for the Wasp engines next time I stop there.

Just checked my Norvel engines, and all of my non-Revlite Norvel engines used slot head screws to mount their cylinders, but all of the Revlite engines have socket head cylinder mounting screws.

ACE even had a stock of the obsolete thread pitch metric screws that OS used for backplate mounting. Most small part suppliers no longer even list that thread pitch!

Bill

John Rist · « **Reply #26 on:** September 16, 2014, 04:24:40 PM »

http://www.mcmaster.com/# McMaster Carr has just about any size screw made in all types of head styles.

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #27 on:** September 17, 2014, 02:52:56 PM »

So I cut one of the screws down to install it. I ground the end down on a cheap hone nice (easier than sandpaper) I removed the uncut screw, installed the the cut screw, get everything down to snug...then I feel the threads pull out.

I guess I'll switch back to the long screw, put a nut on it (I bought a 2 pack when I bought the screw), then clip off the extra.

I am liking the Cox TD venturi idea. I'll think on it some.

Phil

Andrew Tinsley · « **Reply #28 on:** September 21, 2014, 06:01:02 AM »

Hello Phil,
I have converted my Wasp engines much the same as Kenneth. I made up an adapter bush in Delrin to take the Cox 0.049 venturi. The bush is mighty thin, but once in place with the Texas Timer NVA, it was a rigid assembly. I used some decent grubscrews to locate it and some high temperature silicone was used as a belt and braces job to prevent leaks.
Kenneth was smarter than me and used an O ring seal, not quite sure where that went as there isn't much meat in the bush. But then I think Kenneth is a bit smarter than me!

Regards,

Andrew.