News:



  • March 29, 2024, 08:12:22 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew  (Read 3730 times)

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« on: July 24, 2014, 09:42:31 AM »
When I got back into control line flying this Summer after a 20 year lay-off I set a  goal. This year was to get out and learn the whole pattern and at least be able to get through the maneuvers with out bonking the plane. This turned out to be way more challenging and difficult than I had imagined. Several crashed planes.

I know, I know....still have a lot of work to do to get this pattern shaped up and right. I shall endeavor to persevere))))

I have had some time this Summer to get out and fly as much as possible and practice and finally got through the whole pattern. Not at all perfect but I will continue to work on shapes and intersections and flow as I continue. There are so many factors that make flying a good control line pattern a challenge.....weather, sun in the eyes, wind, a good engine run, a well built and true airplane, focus, proper line length and I could go on.

To some this looks like a man flying a toy plane but it is way more than that. I feel the same when I watch golf but when I do go golfing once a year I realize that there is so much to it and good golfers are always working at it. And that means getting out to do it a lot.
But the big factor for me in this control line quest is that it is total intense fun as well. When that plane is in the air all the thoughts in my head are gone and it just becomes me and that plane. And not crashing. And getting a good landing.
A huge thanks to Keith Sandberg for passing this terrific flying, trimmed out, four stroke powered Mustang to me. And the Minneapolis Piston Poppers for their good will.
Thanks for watching.
Shug

Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Paul Taylor

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6042
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 10:05:52 AM »
Looking good Shug!

Your on your way.  H^^
Paul
AMA 842917

Tight Lines = Fun Times

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 10:24:47 AM »
Watching that flight, as I stated on another post, you have me beat.  I would over all put you in the upper 300 to lower 400 range of score.   It still needs work and you are getting there.   You might print off some of the critic sheets that are on here somewhere and use them.  Of course you have a great group of people to fly with. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9920
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 10:58:53 AM »
Trophy in Intermediate, I'd say. Which trophy depends on who else shows up, of course. NO PATTERN POINTS, because of doing 3 outside square loops, but at least you did all the tricks and in the correct order. Nothing about this stuff is easy! If it was easy, there would be even fewer participants.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Tom Niebuhr

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2768
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 11:05:15 AM »
Shug,

With the way that you fly the Slob this is no surprise. You will be at the Advanced level very soon.

AMA 7544

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 11:58:43 AM »
Looking good Shug!

Your on your way.  H^^
I feel on the way...but a long way to go!
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 11:59:41 AM »
Watching that flight, as I stated on another post, you have me beat.  I would over all put you in the upper 300 to lower 400 range of score.   It still needs work and you are getting there.   You might print off some of the critic sheets that are on here somewhere and use them.  Of course you have a great group of people to fly with. 
All the feedback has been good if not overwhelming. Hard part is trying to remember the pattern when dong it!
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 12:00:54 PM »
Trophy in Intermediate, I'd say. Which trophy depends on who else shows up, of course. NO PATTERN POINTS, because of doing 3 outside square loops, but at least you did all the tricks and in the correct order. Nothing about this stuff is easy! If it was easy, there would be even fewer participants.  H^^ Steve
Hopefully three in the contest! I did three because my first one was so bad...plus just learning a lot of this and my butt clenches))))
True, it ain't easy.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2014, 12:01:44 PM »
Shug,

With the way that you fly the Slob this is no surprise. You will be at the Advanced level very soon.


Thanks. I just need to get back to the beginner pattern and just do a contest and see what it all entails. Thank you.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2014, 03:48:49 PM »
Watching that flight, as I stated on another post, you have me beat.  I would over all put you in the upper 300 to lower 400 range of score.   It still needs work and you are getting there.   You might print off some of the critic sheets that are on here somewhere and use them.  Of course you have a great group of people to fly with. 

My flying buddy and I tried those critique sheets, and we quickly went to just watching each other fly, remembering the worst two or three things, and then debriefing right after each flight.

Of course, at it turns out we each have our own screw ups that we do over and over again, so the conversations have gotten short, and involve the word "usual" a lot.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Balsa Butcher

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2357
  • High Desert Flier
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 04:46:12 PM »
Nice pattern, definitely top of the pack Intermediate. Don't waste your time going back to the beginner pattern. You have the skills to do well in Intermediate as is and are maybe one contest season away from Advanced.  8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Jim Thomerson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2087
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 05:05:17 PM »
I hold a conversation with the airplane during the pattern.  I tell it which maneuver comes next and compliment it if it does a maneuver particularly well.   Seriously, talking aloud to the airplane will help you remember which maneuver comes next.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 05:07:18 PM »
Fly Intermediate.  You'll still get slack for tripping over people's lines, you'll still be the riff-raff (it goes with tripping over other people's lines).  About the only thing you don't get in Intermediate that you do in Beginner is a full pattern's worth of time to fly 2/3 of a pattern.

Fly Intermediate, don't trip over my lines (not that it matters -- I don't confine my line-tripping to other people's lines), and if you over-run or under-run, or if you get the jitters so bad that people can see it in your level flight (which I still occasionally do, myself), just don't let it freak you out on your next flight.

As to the actual pattern, I see two or three things:

In the eights your outsides look bigger than the insides.  This may just be the perspective of the camera -- but watch for it.

The maneuvers where you should be entering high, you're starting out too low.  I like to enter both my outside squares and my cloverleaf from at least 1/4 of a lap of dead level flight.  Quite a few people, even in under-expert, come around too low, pop up at the last minute, and turn the first corner of the outside square into a 120 degree corner.  All the last-minute wingwazzles mess up the first square loop -- and that's what I saw in your flight.  You kind of did the same thing in the clover, except that you just did the upper loops too low.  Then on each upper loop you saw how low you were, said "oh @#$%!", climbed, and did the lower loop.  The correct start for the clover is a bit lower than the correct start for the outside square -- but not that low.

In general, your clover was just too small overall -- again, unless perspective was messing me up.  You should start at about 42 degrees, intersect a "wingover line" going crossways to the wind at the peak of the upper loops, fly that same 42 degree line between upper and lower loops, and fly both straight sections dead on top of each other.  It's not the easiest maneuver to do correctly (which is why it's your finale!), but it does look good when it's done right.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tom Niebuhr

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2768
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2014, 07:27:53 PM »
You are absolutely no longer a beginner. Going backwards will be cheating yourself.

Always measure yourself against people who are better than you. This will give you something to shoot for. You are already a mid to high level Intermediate flyer.

You would and should rightfully be embarrassed to take a beginner trophy.
AMA 7544

Online Will Hinton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2766
    • www.authorwillhinton.com
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2014, 07:40:30 PM »
The statement about small maneuvors is a key to getting better - almost everyone seems to fly them too small at first.  Open everything up, you can always choke them down later if your coach tells you to.
It's a bit like when I was autocrossing - a buddy told me to go way too fast on my first run, and if I made it without taking out a pylon, good, if not, it is easier to slow down than to go faster.
That worked for me then, the bigger pattern works for me now.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2014, 08:37:47 PM »
My flying buddy and I tried those critique sheets, and we quickly went to just watching each other fly, remembering the worst two or three things, and then debriefing right after each flight.

Of course, at it turns out we each have our own screw ups that we do over and over again, so the conversations have gotten short, and involve the word "usual" a lot.
Funny how things look huge from the circle and small on video. I like when club members give a comment post-flight.

Nice pattern, definitely top of the pack Intermediate. Don't waste your time going back to the beginner pattern. You have the skills to do well in Intermediate as is and are maybe one contest season away from Advanced.  8)
It is satisfying to get through the pattern I have marveled at others doing.
I though you had to start at beginner.
Thanks for the comment.

I hold a conversation with the airplane during the pattern.  I tell it which maneuver comes next and compliment it if it does a maneuver particularly well.   Seriously, talking aloud to the airplane will help you remember which maneuver comes next.
I do too))) I mutter to myself the whole way through. It helps I think. Now to start complimenting my plane too.

Fly Intermediate.  You'll still get slack for tripping over people's lines, you'll still be the riff-raff (it goes with tripping over other people's lines).  About the only thing you don't get in Intermediate that you do in Beginner is a full pattern's worth of time to fly 2/3 of a pattern.

Fly Intermediate, don't trip over my lines (not that it matters -- I don't confine my line-tripping to other people's lines), and if you over-run or under-run, or if you get the jitters so bad that people can see it in your level flight (which I still occasionally do, myself), just don't let it freak you out on your next flight.

As to the actual pattern, I see two or three things:

In the eights your outsides look bigger than the insides.  This may just be the perspective of the camera -- but watch for it.

The maneuvers where you should be entering high, you're starting out too low.  I like to enter both my outside squares and my cloverleaf from at least 1/4 of a lap of dead level flight.  Quite a few people, even in under-expert, come around too low, pop up at the last minute, and turn the first corner of the outside square into a 120 degree corner.  All the last-minute wingwazzles mess up the first square loop -- and that's what I saw in your flight.  You kind of did the same thing in the clover, except that you just did the upper loops too low.  Then on each upper loop you saw how low you were, said "oh @#$%!", climbed, and did the lower loop.  The correct start for the clover is a bit lower than the correct start for the outside square -- but not that low.

In general, your clover was just too small overall -- again, unless perspective was messing me up.  You should start at about 42 degrees, intersect a "wingover line" going crossways to the wind at the peak of the upper loops, fly that same 42 degree line between upper and lower loops, and fly both straight sections dead on top of each other.  It's not the easiest maneuver to do correctly (which is why it's your finale!), but it does look good when it's done right.
That line tripping is hard not to do. They should be blaze orange!
Thanks for the critique. The maneuvers look huge from the circle but small on the videos.
I know I am going high on those outsides...they still freak me out a bit but I am starting to feel them more. Shaping that clover will take some work...and fuel. But I shall.
And I was saying "oh @#$%!" several times mainly in outside squares, hourglass and clover. Oh yeah. The camera perspective does make it look that way as it was not true behind the pattern
Thanks again Tim.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2014, 08:41:57 PM »
You are absolutely no longer a beginner. Going backwards will be cheating yourself.

Always measure yourself against people who are better than you. This will give you something to shoot for. You are already a mid to high level Intermediate flyer.

You would and should rightfully be embarrassed to take a beginner trophy.
You are right.....you are. I'll forge on forward. I will.
True about playing with those better than yourself. Truly helps you grow.
Now I would not be embarrassed to take a trophy in beginner....I worked hard this summer. But I think I would feel a bit shameful. If I placed.
Nice yo know that you feel I am capable of the next class up. Thankee.


The statement about small maneuvors is a key to getting better - almost everyone seems to fly them too small at first.  Open everything up, you can always choke them down later if your coach tells you to.
It's a bit like when I was autocrossing - a buddy told me to go way too fast on my first run, and if I made it without taking out a pylon, good, if not, it is easier to slow down than to go faster.
That worked for me then, the bigger pattern works for me now.
That need work for sure. Now I feel I am getting to a point where I can focus more on those aspects to this Stunt Quest.
Thank you.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline RknRusty

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
    • My Tube channel
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2014, 09:18:03 PM »
Great work Shug. You and I are on about the same track, I just got to where I can reliably get through a pattern that would earn pattern points. Still got lots of work to do on the shapes. Lots. You do some things better than me and visa versa. I love flying with a purpose. A mission. Boy it was sure hot out there today!
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2014, 09:53:29 PM »
Great work Shug. You and I are on about the same track, I just got to where I can reliably get through a pattern that would earn pattern points. Still got lots of work to do on the shapes. Lots. You do some things better than me and visa versa. I love flying with a purpose. A mission. Boy it was sure hot out there today!
Rusty
Thankee....means a lot as you know how difficult it is to learn. I've seen several of your training videos and have seen the time you put into it. Fun for men in their 50s to have something to take on.
Similarly I enjoy the purpose of it as well.
True....it is a mission. Hope to meet you in Huntersville.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline RknRusty

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
    • My Tube channel
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2014, 10:53:55 PM »
Thankee....means a lot as you know how difficult it is to learn. I've seen several of your training videos and have seen the time you put into it. Fun for men in their 50s to have something to take on.
Similarly I enjoy the purpose of it as well.
True....it is a mission. Hope to meet you in Huntersville.

I'm looking forward to meeting up too. That's the most fun thing about these contests. My first one was last October and I talked so much to everyone I met, my voice was gone by Saturday night. When we checked out of the Ramada in May, we reserved out rooms for October. That's where most of us stay and the rooms go fast. Tell them you are with the airplane contest and you will get a discount. If you are serious about going, go ahead and get your room. We get an extra one in case someone needs one. I flew beginner both times, and in May I entered Profile on Saturday. Even though I only flew the beginner pattern(told the judges beforehand) so didn't get the 25 pattern points, it was a good practice run for Sunday's PAMPA Beginner which was my main event. One of the judges, Bob Zambelli rounded us up and gave us advice after we all flew the first round. I appreciated that.
See you at the pool in the evenings.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline Perry Rose

  • Go vote, it's so easy dead people do it all the time.
  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1655
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2014, 05:09:20 AM »
Two more things, The take off maneuver is 3 laps by itself, you should be doing 6 laps before the r. w. And make that plane turn better.  The squares are quite round with the large radius corners. Be more aggressive.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
I wouldn't take her to a dog fight even if she had a chance to win.
The worst part of growing old is remembering when you were young.

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2014, 06:46:37 AM »
I'm looking forward to meeting up too. That's the most fun thing about these contests. My first one was last October and I talked so much to everyone I met, my voice was gone by Saturday night. When we checked out of the Ramada in May, we reserved out rooms for October. That's where most of us stay and the rooms go fast. Tell them you are with the airplane contest and you will get a discount. If you are serious about going, go ahead and get your room. We get an extra one in case someone needs one. I flew beginner both times, and in May I entered Profile on Saturday. Even though I only flew the beginner pattern(told the judges beforehand) so didn't get the 25 pattern points, it was a good practice run for Sunday's PAMPA Beginner which was my main event. One of the judges, Bob Zambelli rounded us up and gave us advice after we all flew the first round. I appreciated that.
See you at the pool in the evenings.
Rusty
I'll be staying with my sisters that live in Charlotte...where we all grew up. Free lodging. But they will try to get me to do chores. Then a backpacking trip after the Criterium. That is my plan at this point.

Two more things, The take off maneuver is 3 laps by itself, you should be doing 6 laps before the r. w. And make that plane turn better.  The squares are quite round with the large radius corners. Be more aggressive.
I do need to now focus and learn the nuance of the pattern including those laps.  Time to study the pattern print out.
I'll get into those corners more. So much still to do. The Pattern is full of challenges. Who'da thought?
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Doug Moon

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2014, 07:26:56 AM »
That pattern was awesome!!!

If you are comfortable with those sizes stay there and work on the shapes. 

I really like how you kept the plane low on the level laps between maneuvers.  That is always a huge help in teaching yourself the proper height for the maneuver bottoms.  Too many times I see people who fly 8'-10' between maneuvers and then when they fly the maneuver they miss the bottom high because that is what they are comfortbale with.  Good job!  Keep that plane low around 5' all the time.

Another very good thing you did were the round loops. From the video they looked to be pretty darn round!  Usually beginner fliers will pause at the top or the bottom of the maneuver giving it a big flat spot.  You did not do that and kept the plane moving all the time.  VERY GOOD!!!

Keep it up you are a good flier and your videos show us all that practice pays off!!

Way to go!!

Doug Moon
AMA 496454
Dougmoon12@yahoo.com

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2014, 07:49:42 AM »
That pattern was awesome!!!

If you are comfortable with those sizes stay there and work on the shapes. 

I really like how you kept the plane low on the level laps between maneuvers.  That is always a huge help in teaching yourself the proper height for the maneuver bottoms.  Too many times I see people who fly 8'-10' between maneuvers and then when they fly the maneuver they miss the bottom high because that is what they are comfortbale with.  Good job!  Keep that plane low around 5' all the time.

Another very good thing you did were the round loops. From the video they looked to be pretty darn round!  Usually beginner fliers will pause at the top or the bottom of the maneuver giving it a big flat spot.  You did not do that and kept the plane moving all the time.  VERY GOOD!!!

Keep it up you are a good flier and your videos show us all that practice pays off!!

Way to go!!


Thans so much Doug. I'm touched by your comment...especially of a flier of your caliber.
Congratulations on your 2nd place in a tough contest with a very talented field. Yeah, I kept up with all the updates on here. Can only imagine the amount of work you fellers put into it.
This summer of flying has been a much needed challenge. I'm a juggler by trade and working on the Pattern is very similar to a juggling practice. Gotta log time, take not of throws or flights. Not easy but it sure is fun. Love how the world is blocked out when the plane is in the air.
As to videos. It was part of my plan to help see what I do right and wrong. Also by posting them I have gotten critiques I would have never gotten if I had not. This site has been terrific inspiration. Sorta scary every time I press the upload button)))
Also want this hobby to look fun to anyone considering it. Several of my YouTube subscribers have commented to me that they are going to dig out their old CL planes and some are starting from scratch. Just a pebble thrown in the pond.
Thanks again and now I am even more pumped to keep at this Stunt Quest.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Tom Niebuhr

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2768
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2014, 09:41:19 AM »
I totally agree with Doug. Your rounds are great. The importance of flying at 5ft altitude  between maneuvers cannot be over emphasized. Like it or not the stunt pattern is a performance from beginning to end. You must make a professional looking presentation and hap-hazard level flights do nothing to impress the judges. This is where the Bi-Slob is so different.

As Doug said, staying at 5ft will get you into the habit of flying the bottoms at the correct altitude.

There are places where most Intermediates and some Advanced flyers give away points. Take off AND level laps. It should take the entire 1st lap to reach 5ft. Then stay there!

Establishing the 5 ft. altitude is so very important. You are telling the judges that that is where you will fly every maneuver!

Don't get into the habit of opening up your maneuvers too much. Another major mistake made by Intermediate and some Advanced flyers is flying much higher than 45degrees. This becomes a habit that you don't see by yourself and becomes harder and harder to correct.  This will cause you to fly the tops of the vertical maneuvers behind your head.

Practice in the wind. It is rare to have “stunt heaven” of 2 or3 mph wind at a contest. More often the wind is at 10 mph+. Use common sense here. You will see experts fly in survival mode with winds in 20 mph  range. Their survival is more a result of experienced gained with thousands of flights.

This is where the Bi-Slob has helped you to some degree. You have already learned to make some adjustments for wind. You will learn much more about adjusting for the wind as you progress. Many times you can make the wing work for you.

Again, remember that while the Bi-Slob is fun and totally undisciplined. The stunt pattern is a never ending challenge to do it right with never ending changes in flying conditions.  This is very self-rewarding.
AMA 7544

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2014, 10:52:19 AM »
Two more things, The take off maneuver is 3 laps by itself, you should be doing 6 laps before the r. w.

Rather than counting out six laps starting from the takeoff, I separate things:

1: Takeoff.  Just takeoff.  This isn't done until you do a full lap, and you shouldn't hit full altitude until you're over your takeoff spot.  Don't feel defeated if you can't do this -- lots of expert flyers (at least in my neck of the woods) can't do this either.  The Expert-experts can, and they make the entire lap from the release of the plane until full altitude a thing of beauty.  Note, too, that unless you're flying off a golf green, a smooth takeoff is difficult -- on grass, you'll inevitably hit something that'll bounce you up into the air, and it's nearly impossible to recover from that into a smooth climb.

2: Level laps.  These start after your takeoff lap, right at the point where you pass the release point (at altitude -- remember that?).  There's two of them.

3: Two for the judges.

4: (If required), whatever portion of a lap you need to get dead upwind to start the wingover.

Note that there aren't a full six laps in here -- it doesn't hurt to take an extra lap for the judges, or to make sure you have the wingover firmly in mind (I often mess up the wingover because I hit the first corner and some corner of my mind that wasn't paying attention wakes up and says "D'oh?").

If you concentrate on each piece of the maneuver, you don't need to (and in my case, can't) count out six individual laps.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2014, 08:37:04 AM »
The take off and level 2 laps is one maneuver(equals 3 full laps).  that is one of the reason during a stunt clinic some like the late great Allen Brichhause would tell us to take off just before the judges location.   It is easy to do with practice.   Then the two laps before the reverse wingover.   I have tried taking off down wind and usually the plane will leap off the ground in windy weather.   It also means you have to come around to the judges on the sixth lap.  Each maneuver has its quirks.   It is a thing of beauty to watch an expert/Open flyer that knows what they are doing.  So far no one has done the perfect pattern and I doubt any one can.   Maybe a few maneuvers will get a perfect score, but not all of them.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2014, 10:37:09 AM »
It is a thing of beauty to watch an expert/Open flyer that knows what they are doing.

There's such a huge difference between "unstick from the ground without crashing" and the smooth levitation of the plane that a real expert does, it's just amazing.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2014, 10:43:03 AM »
I haven't seen anyone mention this directly (although Doug kinda touched on it):

Fly the entire pattern as if it is being judged.  The rule book tells you, for each maneuver, where the judges are supposed to stop looking. Don't take that into account!  Consider yourself to be in the spotlight from the moment you walk into the circle with your plane until the moment you walk out.  Make your maneuver entries and exits look good, make your maneuvers between laps look good, make your descents from maneuvers look good, make your ascents into maneuvers look good, etc.  Even if it doesn't change how the judges perceive your flying, it will keep you on the ball and make your maneuvers better.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bill Little

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12676
  • Second in COMMAND
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2014, 12:38:56 PM »
Hi Shug!

Congratulations on completing step #1 on the Stunt Journey:  Flying the complete pattern and having a complete model when finished!  You are definitely in the Intermediate stage, a Beginner contest would do no good for your career in this hobby.

Being a juggler is a great plus for you.  Coordination and timing are 95% of what it takes to be successful.  Muscle memory is very important.  How good you want to be will be determined by LOTS of practice with a good coach.  This part is essential.

Most of all, keep it fun!

Bill
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2014, 09:16:01 PM »
Hi Shug!

Congratulations on completing step #1 on the Stunt Journey:  Flying the complete pattern and having a complete model when finished!  You are definitely in the Intermediate stage, a Beginner contest would do no good for your career in this hobby.

Being a juggler is a great plus for you.  Coordination and timing are 95% of what it takes to be successful.  Muscle memory is very important.  How good you want to be will be determined by LOTS of practice with a good coach.  This part is essential.

Most of all, keep it fun!

Bill
Thank you Bill. It has been a great time getting out with a goal to fly a lot. Your right.....when my time comes to compete (hopefully in October in Huntersville) I will go for Intermediate and give it all I've got. And focus. But have fun #1.
Being a juggler helps not in the juggling part but having learned about practicing to get it right, focus and logging time. Same with musical instruments.
Sadly did have a belly crash with the Mustang...dangit...practicing the hourglass. Already repaired 90%. It 'bout broke me heart. But my feelings are it is more important to go for it than to play it safe. Within reason of course.
I don't always follow reason))))
Thankee for your comments.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 10:56:47 PM by Shug Emery »
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2014, 09:25:47 PM »
I totally agree with Doug. Your rounds are great. The importance of flying at 5ft altitude  between maneuvers cannot be over emphasized. Like it or not the stunt pattern is a performance from beginning to end. You must make a professional looking presentation and hap-hazard level flights do nothing to impress the judges. This is where the Bi-Slob is so different.

As Doug said, staying at 5ft will get you into the habit of flying the bottoms at the correct altitude.

There are places where most Intermediates and some Advanced flyers give away points. Take off AND level laps. It should take the entire 1st lap to reach 5ft. Then stay there!

Establishing the 5 ft. altitude is so very important. You are telling the judges that that is where you will fly every maneuver!

Don't get into the habit of opening up your maneuvers too much. Another major mistake made by Intermediate and some Advanced flyers is flying much higher than 45degrees. This becomes a habit that you don't see by yourself and becomes harder and harder to correct.  This will cause you to fly the tops of the vertical maneuvers behind your head.

Practice in the wind. It is rare to have “stunt heaven” of 2 or3 mph wind at a contest. More often the wind is at 10 mph+. Use common sense here. You will see experts fly in survival mode with winds in 20 mph  range. Their survival is more a result of experienced gained with thousands of flights.

This is where the Bi-Slob has helped you to some degree. You have already learned to make some adjustments for wind. You will learn much more about adjusting for the wind as you progress. Many times you can make the wing work for you.

Again, remember that while the Bi-Slob is fun and totally undisciplined. The stunt pattern is a never ending challenge to do it right with never ending changes in flying conditions.  This is very self-rewarding.

I'm happy to hear that on the rounds and bottoms)))) Hard to tell when flying and video helps. But hearing from you established guys really helps!
Now to focus on laps and take offs. Our field is grass and the dandelions and shag-nasties want to grab the lines.
The wind....I fly in it. May not be prudent but you are right. Contest days will be windy. Go to fly a kite and no wind.
The Bi-Slob was something I did get to give me confidence on loops and such....did not know what i was in for with that lil' Beast. But it hs for sure helped me. And been a ton-o-fun.

Rather than counting out six laps starting from the takeoff, I separate things:

1: Takeoff.  Just takeoff.  This isn't done until you do a full lap, and you shouldn't hit full altitude until you're over your takeoff spot.  Don't feel defeated if you can't do this -- lots of expert flyers (at least in my neck of the woods) can't do this either.  The Expert-experts can, and they make the entire lap from the release of the plane until full altitude a thing of beauty.  Note, too, that unless you're flying off a golf green, a smooth takeoff is difficult -- on grass, you'll inevitably hit something that'll bounce you up into the air, and it's nearly impossible to recover from that into a smooth climb.

2: Level laps.  These start after your takeoff lap, right at the point where you pass the release point (at altitude -- remember that?).  There's two of them.

3: Two for the judges.

4: (If required), whatever portion of a lap you need to get dead upwind to start the wingover.

Note that there aren't a full six laps in here -- it doesn't hurt to take an extra lap for the judges, or to make sure you have the wingover firmly in mind (I often mess up the wingover because I hit the first corner and some corner of my mind that wasn't paying attention wakes up and says "D'oh?").

If you concentrate on each piece of the maneuver, you don't need to (and in my case, can't) count out six individual laps.
Finding that the laps and take-offs are so important is...well, important. Bet that comes last for a lot of fliers. Seems a bit mundane but important. Thanks.

The take off and level 2 laps is one maneuver(equals 3 full laps).  that is one of the reason during a stunt clinic some like the late great Allen Brichhause would tell us to take off just before the judges location.   It is easy to do with practice.   Then the two laps before the reverse wingover.   I have tried taking off down wind and usually the plane will leap off the ground in windy weather.   It also means you have to come around to the judges on the sixth lap.  Each maneuver has its quirks.   It is a thing of beauty to watch an expert/Open flyer that knows what they are doing.  So far no one has done the perfect pattern and I doubt any one can.   Maybe a few maneuvers will get a perfect score, but not all of them.
I need to focus here and start counting. Just started timing my flights. So much keeps showing itself as one goes along in this.

I haven't seen anyone mention this directly (although Doug kinda touched on it):

Fly the entire pattern as if it is being judged.  The rule book tells you, for each maneuver, where the judges are supposed to stop looking. Don't take that into account!  Consider yourself to be in the spotlight from the moment you walk into the circle with your plane until the moment you walk out.  Make your maneuver entries and exits look good, make your maneuvers between laps look good, make your descents from maneuvers look good, make your ascents into maneuvers look good, etc.  Even if it doesn't change how the judges perceive your flying, it will keep you on the ball and make your maneuvers better.
That is great advice. But I won't wink at the Judges))))
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Paul Taylor

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6042
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2014, 04:39:37 AM »
Big Art did a great commentary on flying the pattern.
There have been a ton of videos uploaded to YouTube of some top level pilots. I put tons of Windys stuff up. Watch them fly.  Most people do six laps. Same with inverted laps.  These are some of the easier maneuvers. You start with 40 points on a maneuver then start giving points back as you wiggle and bobble.
The object is to take as many points off the field as you can. 😊


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Paul
AMA 842917

Tight Lines = Fun Times

Offline RknRusty

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
    • My Tube channel
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2014, 05:48:01 AM »
Sadly did have a belly crash with the Mustang...dangit...practicing the hourglass.
I still abort that hourglass more than any other maneuver. Usually starting turn three up top, I realize I'm low on energy, so I loop it on back to normal flight and curse at myself. My hilltop field always has 10-15 winds and makes less than authoritative pullouts pretty scary. I haven't watched these aborts on video but I'm guessing I probably make turn 2 too low. That and the outside square loops are probably my ugliest, followed by the second half of the square 8. Banging the corners too hard. Funny how I know what I'm doing wrong, yet continue to do it. I'd love to try all this with less wind sometime, but probably won't happen till the Fall.

I did get to fly some 1/2A yesterday up in NC in dead calm air. I found that my new stunt skills with sensible measured control inputs has greatly improved my form with the little screamers. That was a happy surprise. I flew my Norvel/bladder powered Baby Flite Streak, now I've got the bug for that again. I can walk across the street and play with those.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2014, 08:27:07 PM »
I still abort that hourglass more than any other maneuver. Usually starting turn three up top, I realize I'm low on energy, so I loop it on back to normal flight and curse at myself. My hilltop field always has 10-15 winds and makes less than authoritative pullouts pretty scary. I haven't watched these aborts on video but I'm guessing I probably make turn 2 too low. That and the outside square loops are probably my ugliest, followed by the second half of the square 8. Banging the corners too hard. Funny how I know what I'm doing wrong, yet continue to do it. I'd love to try all this with less wind sometime, but probably won't happen till the Fall.

I did get to fly some 1/2A yesterday up in NC in dead calm air. I found that my new stunt skills with sensible measured control inputs has greatly improved my form with the little screamers. That was a happy surprise. I flew my Norvel/bladder powered Baby Flite Streak, now I've got the bug for that again. I can walk across the street and play with those.
Rusty
That hourglass....I know I need to make it taller so that last turn ain't so scary! Banging those corners...me too...or too soft.
Glad you had a 1/2 A day. Need to visit mine. Got one to build this Winter. The Half Lite.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2014, 09:39:52 PM »
Three things:

One: particularly in Intermediate, it's OK if your hourglass looks like crap.  It's a hard maneuver, and at that level judges expect that it'll look bad.  Instead of trying to aim for an hourglass that pulls out at 5 feet, aim for one that pulls out at 10 or 15.  That's the wrong spot to be, but a crappy hourglass followed by an overhead eight, a cloverleaf, and a landing will get you somewhere in excess of 100 additional points over a Really Good try at an hourglass that pancakes, and it has the added bonus that you get to fly again that day.

Two: In a contest, an hourglass with four turns, no matter how big, vague, badly placed, etc., will almost certainly get you over ten points, and will get you your pattern points.  An hourglass that's an obvious bail-out may not even get you your 10 for an attempt, and may not get you your pattern points.

Three:  I'm not sure how this'll work for you, but a local flyer who's climbing fast (and doing better than me) in Expert told me that you should visualize a plane (that's a geometric plane, not an airplane!) that cuts through your feet and the top of your head.  That plane defines where the plane should be flying in a wingover, where it should make the transitions in the overhead eights, where it should kiss in the vertical eight, and the line it should be flying for the top part of the hourglass.

Furthermore, if you mess up on the top part of the hourglass, it should be behind your head, not in front of it.  Putting it a bit behind your head gives you more room, it's harder for the judges to see the error, and anyway, you usually think you're flying a lot farther back than you really are.

In my opinion it's a lot better to intentionally allow some screwups if it means not crashing -- just know that you're doing them, and fix them as you can.  The very best piece of advice I ever got in my Beginner year (thank you Mark Scarborough) was to purposely fly with my bottom line at 10 or 12 feet, until I was consistently hitting that line.  Once I was consistent enough, then I could bring the line down without fear of crashing.

This has worked so well for me than now I'm getting snarky comments from judges about putting my bottoms and level flight too low, and when I mess up and come down to two feet off the deck in a maneuver I just laugh hysterically and keep going, instead of freaking out and suddenly getting ground shy.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline RknRusty

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
    • My Tube channel
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2014, 11:26:56 PM »
Thanks Tim. When I fly the V8 I do fly over and behind my head(oddly, that one has come easy for me). So I just need to go to that same place with the hourglass, it's so high you can't help but have enough room to come down and pull out. Even when I do manage to complete the hourglass and pull out high, it ends up being lower than I expected. I'll try to concentrate on just letting it climb climb climb and then make the hourglass turns at the top. Even some advanced flyers I see make the top of the hourglass look a little round, and I'm trying to bang sharp corners up there and jerking the life out of the plane. And my coach is telling me what you said, just get the pattern points, pattern points, pattern points! Worry about the shapes later. I don't know why I find it so hard to follow those instructions, it just happens so much faster when I have the handle than it looks from the sideline. Shug and I have both been at it for about two weeks now, so by October when it counts, I bet we'll be getting those pattern points every time. Right now I'd be getting them about every 2 out of 3 tries. Thursday I'm going out at 8AM so maybe the 15mph winds won't be up yet. That should help too. I'm gonna bulldog this thing till I get it!
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12804
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2014, 09:15:40 AM »
Only completing the pattern two out of three attempts is not an unusual place for an intermediate flyer to be.  You'll probably find that you do worse at contests than in practice, at least the first few times -- this is exceedingly frustrating, but normal.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Gene Martine

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Started flying 1952 (AMA 2903)
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2014, 09:34:04 AM »
 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1
 Bravo Shug.
 #^ #^ #^ #^ #^
 Gene

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2014, 02:14:44 PM »
Thanks Tim. When I fly the V8 I do fly over and behind my head(oddly, that one has come easy for me). So I just need to go to that same place with the hourglass, it's so high you can't help but have enough room to come down and pull out. Even when I do manage to complete the hourglass and pull out high, it ends up being lower than I expected. I'll try to concentrate on just letting it climb climb climb and then make the hourglass turns at the top. Even some advanced flyers I see make the top of the hourglass look a little round, and I'm trying to bang sharp corners up there and jerking the life out of the plane. And my coach is telling me what you said, just get the pattern points, pattern points, pattern points! Worry about the shapes later. I don't know why I find it so hard to follow those instructions, it just happens so much faster when I have the handle than it looks from the sideline. Shug and I have both been at it for about two weeks now, so by October when it counts, I bet we'll be getting those pattern points every time. Right now I'd be getting them about every 2 out of 3 tries. Thursday I'm going out at 8AM so maybe the 15mph winds won't be up yet. That should help too. I'm gonna bulldog this thing till I get it!
Rusty
I'm going to work the hourglass like crazy when I get home from the road. Might even u-turn the top.

Only completing the pattern two out of three attempts is not an unusual place for an intermediate flyer to be.  You'll probably find that you do worse at contests than in practice, at least the first few times -- this is exceedingly frustrating, but normal.
Interesting to hear that.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: The Full Stunt Pattern for the First Time...Whew
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2014, 02:15:54 PM »
y1 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1
 Bravo Shug.
 #^ #^ #^ #^ #^
 Gene
Thanks you Gene....I am bowing here))))
Seriously though, it was thrilling to finally get and gut through it.
Shug
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here