Thoughts about top 5

[Dennis Moritz]

Get in shape. David Fitzgerald was cat quick, always able to take a solid stance. His balance very good. Doug Moon his equal.Their flying very athletic. Definitely a plus. The ICs powered through. ICs in top five appeared to have more reserve power. Could have been the way the electrics were set. Were the electrics in top five a victim of their sophistication? When incorporating the Igor accelerometer the adjustment parameters are manifold. These adjustments can be made flight to flight. Over-tweaking between flights? Too much adjustment to ambient conditions happening at the power source before flying, rather than at the handle during the pattern?

[Tim Wescott]

Were the electrics in top five a victim of their sophistication? When incorporating the Igor accelerometer the adjustment parameters are manifold. These adjustments can be made flight to flight. Is there too much temptation to tweak. Adjustment to ambient conditions happening at the power source before flying, rather than at the handle during the pattern.

Paul has been flying the Igor timer for years, and has won over IC, so he should have it pretty settled.

Howard was flying a new plane that he's only had a month of practice on, and as far as I know only had a couple of weeks on the Igor timer.

As far as "too much temptation" -- temptation is there to be resisted.  One should thoroughly know one's system, be it IC, electric, or rubber band, know when to tweak it and when to leave it alone.

[Dennis Moritz]

Paul's electric sounded very different last summer. Is it the same system? I think Howard's system was different this year. Howard had a single space page of adjustments he consulted after every flight. I don't remember him doing that last year.

[Randy Cuberly]

Interesting observation Dennis.
I don't have the talent of a David Fitzgerald or a Doug Moon but have been doing this for a long time. and the electrics that I have witnessed and flown did not have the controlled regulation of a well tuned PA, or RO Jett, Pipe set up...At least not in my humble opinion.
I'm willing to believe that given the flexibility of the electric set ups that they may eventually be at least as good or eventually better.  I personally don't think they are there yet.

I really don't agree that the problem is that the guys are too quick to "tinker" however.  I think they just haven't found the "Magic" yet!

That said, I'm impressed with Howard's placing, given the "New airplane" and lack of experience with it!

I think he will make a good showing for the Worlds!  Go Howard!

Randy Cuberly
PS:  Wish I could have been there to see this first hand!  Life seems to always get in the way!

[Dennis Moritz]

Howard did a great job. Preparing for the Worlds. His best NATS showing ever. I overheard Paul's critique of Howard's plane. Handled very well, very capable, despite a build weight on the heavy end. No doubt the sophistication of Howard's electric set up assisted airplane trim.

[proparc]

Hate to say it but ,were flogging a dead horse concerning powerplants. ANY reliable front end can "get er done" in CL.

Now, F3A-that is a different story where, the supercharged YS's are dishing out a terrible ass-whippin!

[Steve Fitton]

The autothrottle on Howard and Paul's planes was interesting and seemed quite effective.  The sound was unique.  To get an idea of the sound, listen to the RC car that chases Dirty Harry in The Dead Pool...!

[john e. holliday]

I'm glad that Howard is getting his stuff to work.   If not for the BOM our other two team members might have made a difference in the out come.   Now don't jump on me, I'm in favor of the BOM for competition. 

[PJ Rowland]

I will reply to a few posts once in back home. However will voice an opinion.

I watched dave and brett practice leading up to and including all of the nats flights. Winning this event is easy. Simply fly accurate.

The eletric setup of pauls ship was nothing short of exceedingly amazing.  They dont give up anything on the ic setup. Any change the top boys made was in response to pushing scores toward 600. Unless you fly at the top its impossible to understand the importance of consistency in engine speed and how critical it is to extract the maximum from your package.


This contest. ... like all others lets the best stunt flier win. This was no different dave flew better geometry and had excellent heights all week.

Power Plant doesnt matter. Its coincidence ic were 1&2

[Eric Viglione]

It is this observers opinion that in the conditions that the Top 5 was flown, power train wasn't the deciding factor. It was mild temps, maybe a bit humid, and very light and variable winds, if you could even call them that. No one was fighting into any strong winds in their overheads, or getting blown down in their verticals, or got wound up in their consecutive tricks. It was, just about, stunt heaven as they say.

I watched all the flights. What separated the pack was the ability to not lose concentration, not panic or choke on a trick, and just fly accurate. Easier to say than do, trust me. To be honest, I thought all 5 flew better in qualifying than they did in the fly-off. I kept waiting for someone to put in a real barn burner to be the deciding factor and run away with it, but it turned out to be a game of inches. Everyone made some mistakes, some more glaring than others.

It's a long, grueling week, and every round is a fight to keep your concentration peaked. What, with getting up at 5 or 6AM and flying possible until around 8:30PM or so every night because the Sun is still up, then off to a very late dinner, I about wore myself out on long days on my feet and only 4 or 5hrs sleep every night. If I kept that pace and had to fly with the pressure added in the Top 5, I'd probably have been a gibbering idiot by then, well, more so than I already am. Heh.

Sorry folks, if you were looking for a controversy, there's nothing to see here, move on...

EricV

[Doug Moon]

As a participant of the top 5, and several in the past, this one was different.  Well, they are all different.  But this time this one was cool foggy humid air.  I think Mike Haverly described it best when he said it was like taking a boat from fresh water and putting it in salt water, they float higher.  For me it felt as tough it was easy to miss the bottoms high when I used my normal timing.  After round one I had to make some adjustments to my timing and they proved worthy to keep me in the fight.  But it was certainly a very hard day to lay in a barn burner and separate yourself from the pack.  But believe me it was from lack of trying that's for sure.  Eric is right this was a contest of concentration.  It took mental concentration to fly the pattern you normally fly in warm/hot air with the sun bearing down on you and some clouds here and there to use for navigation and now in cool muggy air with ZERO background just a gray sheet in the background.  It was hard but it was DAMN FUN!  I cant wait to try again.

 

[Eric Viglione]

As a participant of the top 5, and several in the past, this one was different.  Well, they are all different.  But this time this one was cool foggy humid air.  I think Mike Haverly described it best when he said it was like taking a boat from fresh water and putting it in salt water, they float higher.  For me it felt as tough it was easy to miss the bottoms high when I used my normal timing.  After round one I had to make some adjustments to my timing and they proved worthy to keep me in the fight.  But it was certainly a very hard day to lay in a barn burner and separate yourself from the pack.  But believe me it was from lack of trying that's for sure.  Eric is right this was a contest of concentration.  It took mental concentration to fly the pattern you normally fly in warm/hot air with the sun bearing down on you and some clouds here and there to use for navigation and now in cool muggy air with ZERO background just a gray sheet in the background.  It was hard but it was DAMN FUN!  I cant wait to try again. 

It's funny you said that Doug, because I said to Randy in the pit area verbatim: "I think every one of these 5 planes could use an extra 1/4 ounce of lead in the nose today because of the thick poppy air". Randy just smiled and nodded.
EricV

[FLOYD CARTER]

These comments tend to reinforce my opinion that, to end up on top, one cannot afford the tiniest error. The weather certainly plays a big part.  Although not able to break 500 , my biggest problem is getting blinded by the sun.  I simply cannot do a decent overhead 8 when the sun is out.  I wonder how the rest of you deal with sun-blindness.

Floyd

[RandySmith]

It's funny you said that Doug, because I said to Randy in the pit area verbatim: "I think every one of these 5 planes could use an extra 1/4 ounce of lead in the nose today because of the thick poppy air". Randy just smiled and nodded.
EricV

As you know , because you have been to my stunt camps, I use a simple technique for that, I have an aluminum prop nuts, Alum, washer, and a steel prop nut and steel washer.  On days like that in very cool mornings i replace the alum nut for the steel nut, it takes the jump out of the plane to the point it feels exactly the same as when flying in warmer sunny weather, like the afternoon the day before.

This was a unique NATs weather wise, as the weather was just about "stunt heaven" air all thru the contest.

Randy

[Doug Moon]

As you know , because you have been to my stunt camps, I use a simple technique for that, I have an aluminum prop nuts, Alum, washer, and a steel prop nut and steel washer.  On days like that in very cool mornings i replace the alum nut for the steel nut, it takes the jump out of the plane to the point it feels exactly the same as when flying in warmer sunny weather, like the afternoon the day before.

This was a unique NATs weather wise, as the weather was just about "stunt heaven" air all thru the contest.

Randy

I already had the steel nut on during the week.  It is a great tool and I have been using that trick for years.

[RandySmith]

I already had the steel nut on during the week.  It is a great tool and I have been using that trick for years.

Doug  then in that case  you would swap the alum  washer  for the steel washer  :-)

Randy

[Brett Buck]

It's funny you said that Doug, because I said to Randy in the pit area verbatim: "I think every one of these 5 planes could use an extra 1/4 ounce of lead in the nose today because of the thick poppy air". Randy just smiled and nodded.
EricV

   Or, a large steel prop washer instead of a small aluminum prop washer, like I put in?

    Brett

[RandySmith]

  Or, a large steel prop washer instead of a small aluminum prop washer, like I put in?

    Brett

Maybe if  you used BOTH ... the steel  prop nut and steel prop washer.....  you would be  NATs  champ  now  :-)   LOL

and   you wore  the wrong  shirt !

R

[Doug Moon]

Doug  then in that case  you would swap the alum  washer  for the steel washer  :-)

Randy

I dont have the steel washer.  I have only ever received the aluminum one...  Didnt know it even existed. 

[Howard Rush]

If not for the BOM our other two team members might have made a difference in the out come.

I think it's more a matter of them being able to take yet another week off work.

[Howard Rush]

My first impression of Saturday was that it resembled the Northwest Regionals: drizzly and with the same guys.  The West Coast Varsity was there with me as token JV member, except for Doug taking Ted's place.  As for trim, I added 10 grams to the nose early in the week and didn't feel the need for more Saturday.  I took out a little tip weight and messed with the leadout position some, returning it after the first round to where it had been the rest of the week.  There was some squirrelly air and maybe condensation on the planes and lines some of the time.  These made conditions worse than we expected from the overcast and very light wind.   

I adapted to Igor's autothrottle in very few flights, thanks to Igor's instructions and Paul's help.  I kept the gain at the setting I'd settled on the first day I used it at home, except for one kinda breezy day, when I bumped it up a little.  Paul has more experience with the Igor autothrottle, and he is more disposed to change gain for changing conditions.  The TUT was also pretty much plug and play.  I was pretty conservative with its settings, but later in the week I did take advantage of the slow takeoff and the power burst before landing, although the latter is just an FAI feature.    Settings for the Igor system, the Jeti speed controller, and the TUT indeed take up a whole page, and one does need to keep track of them to avoid some interesting interactions, but I didn't change much during the Nats. 

[Dennis Moritz]

I'm glad Howard described his process. I wondered about that sheet. Our club, the Philly Fliers, will hold our yearly contest this Sunday. Mike Palko will fly his electric bird. Too bad it's not possible to contrast the electric power approaches back to back. Mike intended to do the NATs this year, but a company change in vacation scheduling interfered. So far Mike does not use an Igor accelerometer. His motor power also appears to be set higher, more like IC engines. Is the difference in power setting actual? Dunno. Just how it looks to me.

[Bob Hunt]

Dennis:

I've flown Mike's Mustang and it reacts almost in every respect precisely like my Crossfire or my Genesis Extreme. In fact, Mike and I flew each others ships after a contest a couple of years back, and we agreed that we could have probably switched planes after each round and flown the same scores; they are that close... not to mention that our handle settings are virtually identical! Interestingly, we fly completely different electric motor/timer setups, but neither of us could detect any noticeable advantages in the others ship in flight.

I'm anxious to try the Igor system with the addition of Tim's TUT system. As I predicted when modern electric power arrived, it will continue to be improved for years to come. I liked the way Howard's ship ran and flew very much at the Nats. I think he'll do very well with this setup at the Worlds.

The bottom line is that electric power is here to stay, and it will win it's fair share of major contests (Anyone want to wager that an electric setup doesn't win at the upcoming WC's?). It will continue to improve through new technology (no, that's not a dirty word...). Having said that, it is obvious that IC powered models will also win their fair share of major meets for years to come. I think what we are seeing is a general improvement of the flying at the top end of the event. And, that's a good thing! 

Later - Bob Hunt

[Dennis Moritz]

What the heck is TUT!

[Doug Moon]

What the heck is TUT!

Tim's Universal Timer