Author Topic: Texas barn find. Spanish "BF 109", 1944 P51 D, original condition. (Read 19107 times)

Greg McCoy · « **on:** July 10, 2014, 05:49:51 PM »

A collector in Texas selling his collection. 5 Spanish Hispano licensed "BF 109".

Dual Control Spanish "BF 109 G", flown by Adolf Galand in the movie, "The Battle of Britain".

1944 P51 D original condition, still with tube radios.

1943 Vickers Supermarine Spitfire IXb
MH415 - N415MH
USD$2,500,000
Completely original - unrestored

Pilot from the 1968 movie, "The Battle of Britain", they told him they would give him an "IOU", "No , I'll take some airplanes".

Auction scheduled for September.

http://www.platinumfighters.com/

This is interesting.

Greg McCoy · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2014, 07:02:28 PM »

Sorry it's not control line.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #2 on:** July 10, 2014, 07:31:15 PM »

Quote from: Greg McCoy on July 10, 2014, 07:02:28 PM

Sorry it's not control line.

neither is happy 4th of July - but you guys still post it.

at least this is about airplanes

Gerald Arana · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2014, 07:41:28 PM »

OMG! What a great find!

Thank you so much for posting it. I thoroughly enjoyed see those old WWII fighters. I hope someone that has to much money buys them and restores them to flying condition. It would be great to see them flying in formation over the air field.

Thanks again, Jerry

Greg McCoy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2014, 07:44:23 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on July 10, 2014, 07:31:15 PM

neither is happy 4th of July - but you guys still post it.

at least this is about airplanes

It's kind of off-putting, something this exciting. 60+ views with no comments.

Are people afraid to click on links? Maybe they they should get a Mac and enjoy the web.

55chevr · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2014, 08:06:53 PM »

My brother and I looked at buying a flying P51 at Smith Army Airfield - Ft Bragg. The owner was asking $30K at the time - around 1967. It was red and painted with a brush ... WW2 planes were still cheap. High maintenance and huge fuel consumption. I think something on the scale of 60 gallons an hour. We passed as we would have a big mortgage on it and then couldn't afford to fly it. I was an E4 in the army and he was still in college. We could have gotten dad to finance it but the note would have choked us. Million dollar plane now.

Mike Keville · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2014, 08:26:35 PM »

Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is"?

Paul Smith · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2014, 04:08:03 AM »

It's good that these historic planes have been saved. Too many types of historic airplanes have been totally scrapped out without a single specimen being preserved.

I see a lot of Bf-109 parts, but most likely, the key parts that wear out are missing. BY now, any surviving Bf-109 mechanics would be at least 90 years of age. If some billionaire collector wants to get these in the air he should do what's necessary to round up somebody who knows how these things work.

I saw some post-Great War photos of rows of Fokker triplanes being scrapped out. They were burning money and didn't know it.

On the plus side, the Bf-109 was a simple, cheap airplane designed to be thrown together cheap like a CL combat plane. So they must be easier to fix than some more complex airplanes. Also, the Germans were known for keeping a lot of documentation and not destroying it at the end of the war, so maybe some shop manuals can be found. I suspect that somebody could make a 50% new rebuild using some of the old parts.

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2014, 05:34:14 AM »

A well known stash of rare planes. I've seen several articles about his collection over the years.

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2014, 11:45:37 AM »

It looks like the Bf109s were taken apart by people who knew what they are doing. The engines and wings are carefully stored. If the engines were "pickled" when stored they are probably still fine. I was negotiating to buy a Bucker Jungmann stored the same way a few years back but got outbid at the last minute. The Spanish built these 109s under license into the 1950's and were flying them into the 1960's, and they were airworthy when the movie was made in 1968. As mentioned, the 109 was built for easy assembly and repair and is very clever in how it is put together. These should all be flyable when some billionaire decides to put a few bucks into the program.

The Spitfire is the real prize here, though. Should easily bring the asking price.

don Burke · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2014, 11:53:10 AM »

Quote from: 55chevr on July 10, 2014, 08:06:53 PM

My brother and I looked at buying a flying P51 at Smith Army Airfield - Ft Bragg. The owner was asking $30K at the time - around 1967. It was red and painted with a brush ... WW2 planes were still cheap. High maintenance and huge fuel consumption. I think something on the scale of 60 gallons an hour. We passed as we would have a big mortgage on it and then couldn't afford to fly it. I was an E4 in the army and he was still in college. We could have gotten dad to finance it but the note would have choked us. Million dollar plane now.

I knew a guy who was a pilot just after WWII he and five buddies drove to an Air Force base in Northern California. One drove the car back, the other five bought war surplus P-51s and flew them home to SoCal.
The planes cost? $500 each. I met him in 1965, he never said what happened to the P-51, I think he just sold it for at the time a moderate profit.

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2014, 01:00:47 PM »

Quote from: don Burke on July 11, 2014, 11:53:10 AM

I knew a guy who was a pilot just after WWII he and five buddies drove to an Air Force base in Northern California. One drove the car back, the other five bought war surplus P-51s and flew them home to SoCal.
The planes cost? $500 each. I met him in 1965, he never said what happened to the P-51, I think he just sold it for at the time a moderate profit.

When I was in Preflight Aviation Cadets (3 months Lackland AFB) Summer,1955, The Brooks AFB nearby was no longer a flying base. P-51s and T-6s were bunched up and IIRC the going price for a T-6 was about $100 and the P-51s were $500. They were dismantled and one had to truck them out. A brand new spare engine was also in each package. Lordy, Lordy, if I had only known!!! But then $500 plus trucking-out was a small fortune to we "Gadgets!".

roger gebhart · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2014, 02:43:57 PM »

Connie Edwards. Should be a great auction. Lots of great stuff.

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2014, 03:39:36 PM »

My father's first job after getting out of the Air Force as a pilot in 1945 was with the War Assets Administration. He was personally involved in selling things like P-51s for virtually nothing, many of them brand new in crates, so I can tell you the stories are true. He was still somewhat bitter that it was people who had safe jobs at home that had the money to buy these things, while the servicemen who had flown them, like him, didn't.

All that aside, I still hope somebody puts these fabulous machines back into the air so the rest of us can enjoy seeing them fly.

jim gevay · « **Reply #14 on:** July 11, 2014, 04:35:11 PM »

Connie Edwards was a big name in warbirds movement in the 60's and 70's. It's good to finally see these planes on the market and maybe sometime soon in the skies.
By the way, these are Messerschmitt designs, post war Spanish built with Rolls Royce Merlin engines.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2014, 05:25:09 PM »

I'm sure this is well known in the Warbird community.
They pretty much know who has what and who is hoarding parts.

proparc · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2014, 05:39:40 PM »

Greg, this was absolutely wonderful stuff. It has always been my personal opinion that, this site is not just for people who like control line stunt ships but, for people who love planes in general.

Thanks to these gentleman, who were willing to risk their lives back in WWII, we can view and enjoy these ships today in freedom.

Thanks again.

Steve Thornton · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2014, 05:38:15 PM »

Connie has bought and sold lots and lots of airplanes including a Messershmitt 108, F-86D, PBY, and any other plane that he wanted. Sorry to hear abut Tex, Connie also lost a brother to a P-51 crash at his ranch/airport. Lot of tragedy for one family.

RogerGreene · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2014, 05:51:36 PM »

Thanks so much for sharing this movie.

Roger

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2014, 06:52:17 PM »

I suspect that somebody could make a 50% new rebuild using some of the old parts.
[/quote]

When you see what some currently flying restorations started with I think you could safely say some aircraft have way more than 50% new parts. I believe they are usually referred to as "data plate restorations", meaning they didn't have much more than a data plate from the original aircraft to start with.
http://cx500forum.com/forum/attachments/cx500-cx650-turbo-forum/10441d1398683287-500turbo-600-miles-ebay-1-n3200-sangatte1986-peterarnoldcol.jpg
http://www.globalaviationresource.com/v2/wp-content/gallery/spitfire-n3200/13428721693_f5658e51ae_oB.jpg
When you see what they started with (and it was in salt water) and the finished product there has to be a lot of new metal in there.

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2014, 01:36:54 AM »

   There are more P-51s flying today than there were 25 or 30 years ago. Like Elwyn mentioned, with today's technology and manufacturing methods, you just have to "want to do it" more or less to get something done, and that just depends on the depth of your pockets. Remember the Red Baron RB-51 Reno Unlimited racer that crashed years ago? The whole air frame was pretty much written off but then again there wasn't much of the original airframe left at that time anyway. It was a pure miracle that Steve Hinton survived that crash. That airplane "exists" today as a pretty much stock TF-51 (I think, modified with dual controls) and they just started with the name plate and the control stick. There are teams down under in Australia or New Zealand that are building new Mosquito bombers and I don't think a lot of people would have ever thought that would ever happen again. There will always be the argument that these airplane belong in museums on static display only to preserve them, and the other side of the argument that they were meant to fly and are best presented as such, and I am a "keep 'em flying!" kind of guy!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
PS to add:
The "109" correct designation is Hasa 1112, I do believe and were made under contract in Spain, and were surplus from the Spanish Air Force and purchased to make the movie, along with a Hasa version of a twin engine bomber (Heinkel?) and a JU-52 also. I think those airplanes survive today also. The movie "Battle of Britain" also brought Dave Platt to the fore front as a top modeler as he did most or all of the model work for the movie.

wayne scruggs · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2014, 05:31:21 PM »

I can sum it up in one word WOW!!!!!

dave siegler · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2014, 08:21:03 PM »

Hardly a "barn find" Connie Edwards is a known quantity and was know to have lots of airplane and parts. He is in EAA warbirds hall of fame for goodness sake.

The big difference, is he isn't donating them or selling them on a fire sale or giving them them over to the CAF.... he can sit on them till someone decides to pay for them.

http://warbirds-eaa.org/news/132007%20-%2011_12%20-%20Edwards%20Selected%20for%20EAA%20Warbirds%20of%20America%20Hall%20of%20Fame.html

http://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhistory/1987-04/pby-odyssey

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #23 on:** July 15, 2014, 11:45:01 PM »

The Spit, Mustang, and one Ha1112 are fully assembled airplanes presented as when last flown in the USA. The Hispanos disassembled were all flying airplanes, disassembled and shipped from Spain in 1969. They aren't parts planes, they are complete, flying airplanes that are disassembled for shipping and once they arrived were never reassembled. They have been in Connie's possession since, in his hangars, sitting undisturbed. There is a spares package for sale as well, the Spanish Air Force had used the Hispanos until 1965 as front line fighters and they had spares for maintenance of the airplanes and this was bought by Connie as well.
Chris...