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Author Topic: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO  (Read 2262 times)

Offline Shug Emery

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Went yet again to the flying field today to trim and tweak my recently repaired Prowler.
Got some coaching on maneuvers from Keith Sandberg and an amazing surprise!
Wow.....control line is difficult to do well. Still working on shapes, bottoms and intersections and trying to get the overhead 8 a bit more behind me. Of course I still need more practice.
Just like in juggling, it is easy enough to know what you need to improve but the process of getting the improvement applied to the stunt takes some time, focus and handle time. So much going on in my head when flying. Mostly thrill!
I am very touched by the generosity in this hobby. Almost shed a few Man-Tears.....
Thanks so much Keith. Truly.
It was a fantastic day...and a short but powerful storm swept through as well.
Shug

Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 08:14:03 AM »
You are flying better than the Beginner class.  Better to skip Beginner and spend time learning the Pattern and jump right into Intermediate for your 1st contest.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 08:22:36 AM »
I made that suggestion to a fellow modeler one year and wished I hadn't.   Needless to say he won the INT class that year and proceeded to ADV in short time.   Shug you have a great coach there in Keith.  It has been how many years that I have known Keith from the SIG contest on to others.   You are improving.   If I read right you are not that far from me as I live just SW of Kansas City KS/MO.   Used to drive through the Twin Cities area on I-35 going to visit in-laws.  Anyway, keep having fun.
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Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 09:09:01 AM »
For an even better feel at the handle shorten the overhang as much as possible. i.e. bring the bar closer to your fingers.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 09:50:31 AM »
You are flying better than the Beginner class.  Better to skip Beginner and spend time learning the Pattern and jump right into Intermediate for your 1st contest.
I'm humbled..... #^ Still need to learn some more of the pattern and still have a few weeks before my Summer gets busy with work. Been shooting some triangles and a few sloppy Vert 8s. Onward I go.
Thanks.

I made that suggestion to a fellow modeler one year and wished I hadn't.   Needless to say he won the INT class that year and proceeded to ADV in short time.   Shug you have a great coach there in Keith.  It has been how many years that I have known Keith from the SIG contest on to others.   You are improving.   If I read right you are not that far from me as I live just SW of Kansas City KS/MO.   Used to drive through the Twin Cities area on I-35 going to visit in-laws.  Anyway, keep having fun.
Keith and other club members have been helpful just giving suggestions here and there. It really does help. None of them are cramming it down me gob...just being real relaxed about it.
Thankee Doc.

For an even better feel at the handle shorten the overhang as much as possible. i.e. bring the bar closer to your fingers.
That I will ease my way to.
So many little things to tweak it just amazes me as I stay at this. That is what makes it fun though. If it were easy it would take away from the challenge.
I appreciate it.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

steven yampolsky

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 11:00:27 AM »
So much going on in my head when flying.
The intensity of 5 minutes of official flight at a contest is comparable to shooting an instrument approach to minimums without an autopilot.

Shug, you are doing all the right things: practicing, getting someone to coach you and having fun. Keep doing it!

Steve

P.S. Look for an expert lefty pilot and observe how they move their hand during flight. As a lefty, you have a distinct advantage which can come be very useful in competition.


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 11:23:41 AM »
So many little things to tweak it just amazes me as I stay at this.

The depth of knowledge and skill that you need to fly at the expert level, compared to what you need to just stagger through a recognizable pattern, is amazing.  Of course, I just moved myself up from advanced to I'll-never-win expert, and I think there's at least as much development between where I am now and the top guys as there was from where I was flying beginner to where I am now.  You'll never, ever, run out of improvements to make.

I'm going to second what Allen said -- your maneuvers are good enough for intermediate, and there's no reason you can't fly a partial pattern.  You can do a reverse wingover and you can fly upside down -- if you fly in intermediate you can just do the "beginner's pattern" plus a reverse wingover and six laps of inverted.  You'll progress much faster.
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Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 11:51:29 AM »
I agree with the others. Your shapes are good enough you could skip beginner.

Your have come a long way in a short amount of time.  CLP**

And keep flying in the wind. That is something I need to do more of. It's always windy on contest day.  HB~>

Shug thanks for taking the time to make and share your videos. We enjoy them.  :##


PS - Way to go Keith - advancing the hobby.
Paul
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2014, 12:35:05 PM »
Shug,

Whoooo Buddy))))


Absolutely!

The Shug, Whoooo Buddy)))), "Fan Club!!"

And a Fan Club you deserve. CLP**.

Avaiojet is the " Whoooo Buddy)))) Shug Emery Fan Club" member #1.  ;D #^

Shug, you're setting a fine example as to the kind of modelers this sport needs.

The sport needs more people like you!  H^^

Congratulations on your efforts and progress.

Whoooo Buddy))))

Charles

Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Douglas Ames

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2014, 07:31:45 PM »
Shug,
Drop down to the Four Stroke forum and check out Bob Reeve's methods for tweeking a Saito .40. Awesome little engine!
The Mustang looks like a Brodak kit. Your flights are inspiring, need to get out more and practice myself.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 07:39:08 PM »
I am very touched by the generosity in this hobby.

You're giving back just by sharing all this "beginner" stuff -- there's people out there who aren't forward enough to ask the questions you do; they're benefiting from you speaking up, and getting answers.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 07:51:10 PM »
The Mustang looks like a Brodak kit.


 Just for information's sake, this particular Mustang is a scratchbuilt design drawn up by Keith that he built around a Sig Mustang wing.

 This 'ol Mustang is a very good flier Shug, Keith has flown it a ton and it's a proven combo. It's fully trimmed and ready to go with all the bugs worked out. Don't change a thing, just keep refilling the fuel tank and fly the heck out of it. y1
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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 08:43:56 PM »
The intensity of 5 minutes of official flight at a contest is comparable to shooting an instrument approach to minimums without an autopilot.

Shug, you are doing all the right things: practicing, getting someone to coach you and having fun. Keep doing it!

Steve

P.S. Look for an expert lefty pilot and observe how they move their hand during flight. As a lefty, you have a distinct advantage which can come be very useful in competition.


I want that feeling!
The fun is essential and practicing is a serious fun. My goal in 3 years is to have a very good consistent pattern and it still be fun.
Lefty advantage, huh? We are usually at a disadvantage. Maybe because we pull the plane around. Flying inverted the other day I was thinking that this is what flying right handed feels like.
Thanks for you input.

The depth of knowledge and skill that you need to fly at the expert level, compared to what you need to just stagger through a recognizable pattern, is amazing.  Of course, I just moved myself up from advanced to I'll-never-win expert, and I think there's at least as much development between where I am now and the top guys as there was from where I was flying beginner to where I am now.  You'll never, ever, run out of improvements to make.

I'm going to second what Allen said -- your maneuvers are good enough for intermediate, and there's no reason you can't fly a partial pattern.  You can do a reverse wingover and you can fly upside down -- if you fly in intermediate you can just do the "beginner's pattern" plus a reverse wingover and six laps of inverted.  You'll progress much faster.
Congratulations on moving on up. I know that was a lot of work and practice. I like that what you said "You'll never, ever, run out of improvements to make". That makes this truly interesting. Like practicing music or juggling....there are always ways to keep improving. The plateaus are longer and the hills higher but in the end a huge payoff.
Thanks for the vote of confidence! Feel like it would be much easier to place in beginner but I like a good beat down)))) ;D Daunting to think of jumping in to intermediate but I do like a big leap. Hoping to get to a contest in October and get into something. Hoping!
Thank a bunch.

quote author=Paul Taylor link=topic=35811.msg364905#msg364905 date=1404841889]
I agree with the others. Your shapes are good enough you could skip beginner.

Your have come a long way in a short amount of time.  CLP**

And keep flying in the wind. That is something I need to do more of. It's always windy on contest day.  HB~>

Shug thanks for taking the time to make and share your videos. We enjoy them.  :##


PS - Way to go Keith - advancing the hobby.
[/quote]
Those shapes...getting a bit better but starting to get where I can actually think a bit about them whilst flying and not just be in a panic the whole flight. So fun and difficult to get them just right. I think as a lefty outside loops are easier for me than inside. My latest observation after reviewing my flight videos. Like the post-game football sessions in high school. The videos are really helpful to review. Easy to see the shape walk or get eggy on a computer.
Reckon it is always windy on contest days! It has been an adventure to figure out where to play the stunt.
Thanks for the encouragement and to your son for getting me on here.
I really enjoy making videos on several subjects. It is the editing I really enjoy.
Keith is truly a winner of a guy. Bunch of flying tomorrow...the Wednesday Night fly-fest.
Thanks again
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 08:57:36 PM »
Shug,

Whoooo Buddy))))


Absolutely!

The Shug, Whoooo Buddy)))), "Fan Club!!"

And a Fan Club you deserve. CLP**.

Avaiojet is the " Whoooo Buddy)))) Shug Emery Fan Club" member #1.  ;D #^

Shug, you're setting a fine example as to the kind of modelers this sport needs.

The sport needs more people like you!  H^^

Congratulations on your efforts and progress.

Whoooo Buddy))))

Charles
Oh....I got my white pants pressed and ready!
I'm more bravado than skill....but my hope is that in the videos folks see and older feller having fun and also taking it on. Maybe they will join the fray.
Thanks on the progress...it has been fun but for sure I am starting to see and feel improvement. Sure does help to have a good plane and power train to fly.
Whooooooo Buddy)))))

Shug,
Drop down to the Four Stroke forum and check out Bob Reeve's methods for tweeking a Saito .40. Awesome little engine!
The Mustang looks like a Brodak kit. Your flights are inspiring, need to get out more and practice myself.

I will do that.....never thought of it. First four stroke that I ever have flown. What a different sound and great pull.
I think Keith scratch built the kit. Word in the Piston Popper club is that his modeling skills are next to none. After bringing that Mustang home and truly looking to over I see why. And that Mustang has some years on it!
Hope you get some good practice in soon. I'll be flying tomorrow.

You're giving back just by sharing all this "beginner" stuff -- there's people out there who aren't forward enough to ask the questions you do; they're benefiting from you speaking up, and getting answers.
That is interesting...never thought of it that way. My intent was to get some critiques so I could improve myself. And....I just like making videos.
When I signed on here I figured none of the experienced fliers would watch or help out a returning neophyte....I was dead wrong. Gotten so much feedback that it has helped push me to improve.
I appreciate it.

Just for information's sake, this particular Mustang is a scratchbuilt design drawn up by Keith that he built around a Sig Mustang wing.

 This 'ol Mustang is a very good flier Shug, Keith has flown it a ton and it's a proven combo. It's fully trimmed and ready to go with all the bugs worked out. Don't change a thing, just keep refilling the fuel tank and fly the heck out of it. y1
Yes indeed......I knew that you would know.
Keith even shared his written notes with me on this plane. I will not touch a thing as it feels perfect to me. So nice on the lines. Glad I got to see him fly it too. I was very touched by his graciousness. Even my wife was amazed.
We are flying tomorrow night. Should be a mighty fine evening. Can't wait too shake your hand.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 09:42:47 PM »
When I signed on here I figured none of the experienced fliers would watch or help out a returning neophyte....I was dead wrong. Gotten so much feedback that it has helped push me to improve.
I appreciate it.

Less than four years ago I was a returning neophyte, and all those guys helped me -- in spite of the fact that I tend to march to my own drummer, which can be frustrating when someone's trying to get you to take a path that they know for sure works.

So I'm just passing it on.

I think that mostly, we all just enjoy the sport tremendously and want to share in the fun.
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steven yampolsky

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2014, 12:21:11 AM »
I guess I should provide a voice of reason here. Moving straight to Intermediate is not a good idea.

I was in a similar boat as Shug when I first started. I could do "most maneuvers"(ok, many) and was practicing to get ready to enter my first contest. I was also getting pressured by club mates to enter in intermediate. I asked Dave Cook for advice. He's universally accepted as de'facto leader of stunt in New England. A wise man, he suggested I enter in beginner which I did and am glad that I took his advice.
The way I see it, there are several reasons for entering Beginner and not Advanced as one's first contest:
1) skills classes were created for a reason. EACH class is important and serves a specific purpose. Beginner class teaches one how to deal with contest mechanics, pressure to perform on command and learn how to be around a lot of CL planes. Intermediate has very different goals as well as advanced and expert classes.
2) To be able to do most of the maneuvers is not enough to win Intermediate. All maneuvers are needed. Why enter a class you know have NO chance of winning.
3) Entering a class beyond one's skill set just adds another level of pressure which can ruin airplanes or worse: have one loose interest in the sport.

There are also intangible lessons to learn in each class. The "stunt life lessons".


Offline John Stiles

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 05:43:21 AM »
Outstanding video and excellent piloting by both you fellers. I'm sufficiently impressed at your progress in the pattern, I'll never get that good, due to a few physical impairments. That never stopped me feeling exhilarated though to watch people advance in ability. As far as Keith paying his "pride and joy" forward...what a guy. The same thing happened to me when I was very young, a guy gave me a combat c/l plane at the school baseball field. It was what I'd call; being blessed! Thanks for posting Shug!  H^^
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 08:34:59 AM »
I see Tim W. says he marches to his own drummer.   Well I was taught many years ago that when someone is trying to help you, especially  with model planes,  listen and try it.  If it works fine,  if not store it away in the memory banks some where as it may come in handy some time.   
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2014, 09:26:10 AM »
3) Entering a class beyond one's skill set just adds another level of pressure which can ruin airplanes or worse: have one loose interest in the sport.

By that logic, there's about ten guys flying in Expert in the Pacific Northwest should never have moved out of advanced, because we always have Paul, Alan, Chris and Howard there to take 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th (usually in that order).

Which, of course, means that all of the guys currently flying advanced would never have a chance to win, so they should have stayed in intermediate.  Actually, only half a dozen of the current expert crop would have a chance to win this newly-reconfigured advanced, so the rest of them should move down to intermediate, too.

Which, of course, means that now there's a dozen guys in intermediate, only half of which can ever trophy, so the rest should have just stayed in beginner.

Which would leave us with over a dozen REALLY REALLY GOOD FLIERS in beginner, and a newcomer would never have a chance to win, would get discouraged, and would quit.

I see what you're saying about beginner being a good place to learn contesting, and on reflection I think you may be right.  Certainly (now that I think about it) one of my frustrations in my Beginner Year was always doing much worse at contests than I did in practice.  It wasn't until I was about halfway up the ladder in intermediate that I got to the point where I was flying about as well in competition as at the practice field.

But clearly, I disagree with you about when to move up.  I don't think you should wait to enter a class until you have a chance to win -- I think you should enter that class when you're flying well enough to come in about the middle of the pack, or if you're consistently placing 1st or 2nd in the class you're in, or if you think (as I did when I moved up to intermediate, and again this year when I moved to -- essentially -- the bottom of expert) that you'll advance quicker in the next class up.  In Shug's case, I see him progressing fast enough that I think that, while he won't have a chance at getting a trophy in his first contest, I think that he has a better chance of being further along this time next year if he starts in intermediate now (except, of course, for the little details about not tripping over fellow competitor's lines, and engine management, etc.)
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2014, 10:19:12 AM »
And Shug:

Remember that one of the nice things about Stunthanger is that 99 times out of 100 you can ask for advice, then do whatever you want confident in the notion that you're doing what someone told you to do!
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2014, 02:26:03 PM »
I hope we are not hi-jacking this thread.

Steve makes a valid point. There are things that should be learned in beginner.
Example- make sure you know how to be ready when you turn comes to fly.
Another example is learning the rules- pull testing and what to expect over all.

I was asked one time by a judge when I won beginner why I was flying in Beginner.
Because I was new to contest flying and I did know know how to fly a clover and square eights or triangles.

I have sense placed first in Intermediate at a large contest and was booted into Advance.
I don't want to be labeled as a sandbagger.

Really a Intermediate pilot is a Beginner that knows the pattern. And a Expert pilot is a beginner the never quit.  LL~

I guess it is best to do what makes you smile and have fun.
 
Paul
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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Control Line Generosity & Coaching...Prowler and Mustang ViDEO
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2014, 11:19:00 PM »
I have forgotten what a contest is like and would...at this point....for sure do beginner. Hey....I want to place! Been a while since I have competed in anything so want to feel that. Know it will be a thrill. Need to learn how the rules and etiquette and over-all way of a contest flows and works.
Tonight I went for vertical 8s and triangles and even my very first (and sloppy) square 8. Oh and 1/2 of a clover. Tons of work to do on all of those. Got feedback from the Piston Poppers and that is inspiring.
Whoooooo Buddy)))))))


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