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Author Topic: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass  (Read 9461 times)

Offline Dane Martin

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Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« on: July 06, 2014, 07:05:45 PM »
i decided to practice the pattern today with the good ol' sig banshee. i had an old 40fs (early version) and couldn't get it started. sat to long, needs to be cleaned. my friend said, "i got a brand new os40 surpass at home if you want it". so of course, i said yes. put it on and practiced all day! super smooth and consistent engine runs. fiddled with the prop, strangely enough, ended up with a 10x5 apc.  if interested, I'll actually tach it and give all the specs. today was all about break in and getting in the air.

the plane belongs to a friend. it's not pretty, but built super straight.  good for practice

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2014, 10:56:12 PM »
ok. so maybe i jumped the gun a little. i did more engine tuning than pattern practicing today. i raised the tank to get the rpm equal inverted. Then after a couple flights, shimmed the tank out to get it to shut off and drain the tank properly. with the 10x5 and the engine running at a happy RPM, the laps are too fast. a little over four seconds. i was out of 4 pitch, so i did the goofy thing and just tried to richen it up. terrible! my tach screen went out, so really today was just a practice the pattern fast day.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2014, 11:22:17 PM »
With a plane that ugly, you crash less -- the ground jumps out of the way when it sees the plane coming.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 09:42:07 AM »
that's no joke, Tim! this poor thing has been through the ringer. it flies very well, but doesn't look as such!

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 05:46:31 PM »
so I'm sure the manual on an os40 surpass was written with the assumption the engine will be used for RC. thinking that, possibly some of the information may be slightly different.  for example, would 10% nitro be an ok idea? 10% is the lowest i can get locally. if 5% is the better option, then I'll just order some. this weekend i ran power master ys/saito 20/20.

I'm asking because my engine runs hotter than i like. could that be due to high nitro? as I've  said, I'm running a 10x5. i tried  12x4 and it got hot and lost power. i had to shut it off. in the manual, it says 12x5 and 12x6 props are acceptable.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 06:19:39 PM »
Never ran an OS but I would try putting an 11-6 on then choke down the intake till you are flying the lap times you and the airplane are comfortable with. Not suprized at all the 12-4 didn't work. Do not try to set the RPM with the needle, set it to the rich side of peak and use choke area to control speed.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 06:24:04 PM »
10-4 sir. thanks for the reply. what do you think on the nitro? 10% acceptable? in the book it says 5-10. 5 is hard to get around here.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2014, 08:02:36 AM »
Again in my opinion Nitro is your friend. You will end up actually running more fuel through the engine with higher nitro, more fuel = better cooling and lubrication. I would stay with YS 20-20 if you can get it. Also even if you go to 10% nitro stay with all synthetic and use an after run oil.

What little experience I have had with OS four strokes has given me the impression they are timed a little higher than Saitos. Basically you may end up running it at a slightly higher RPM than we run Saitos. I would still use the highest pitch prop I could get away with, just going to take some playing with prop and intake area to find out what works. Be on the lookout for sagging overhead and consistency from day to day.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 09:44:28 AM »
thanks! that's actually good to know, as ys20/20 is readily available. i did not know about the pitch situation you are describing. that makes sense. it appears tuning a four stroke for CL is different than setting up a two stroke!! that's ok, it's worth the effort so far

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2014, 10:52:29 AM »
Most that tried 4 strokes back when.... did exactly that, tried to apply what they knew worked with 2 strokes to 4 strokes and it simply doesn't work. I believe this is the main reason you don't see many 4 strokes today. Everyone could see the potential but most couldn't get the 2 stroke ideas out of their head and do what needed to be done. <sarcasm on> Everyone knows high pitch props do not work in PA, right... <sarcasm off>

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2014, 12:40:23 PM »
What Bob says is spot on. I have come to call Bob Mr. four stroke.
Jim Kraft

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 09:49:01 AM »
ok, Mr. Reeves. i hope you don't mind. I'm copying your principals with your Saito mod and adjusting as required for OS. I'll post pics and measurements if anyone would like? this will work for os40fs and surpass, and 48. I'm turning out a new aluminum barrel at work, and that's really the only special part. I'll test fly the model again Sunday and discuss how it turns out. I'll be using the 10-32 nylon bolt to adjust venturi volume also.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 07:02:39 PM »
ok. so like i mentioned, i copied Bob's ideas and applied them to the OS. i don't seem to be drumming up a lot of interest with this. maybe I'm the only OS guy here? lol. anywho, heres my plagiarism of Bob's hard work..... >:D

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 01:37:43 AM »
Fantastic, happy to see someone playing with an OS. I have always wondered if the OS would respond like the Saito's but never took the time to find out. Eagerly awaiting your findings..

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 09:39:25 PM »
ok. i officially need a new tach. it worked good enough for a while. Rich off peak, then adjusted RPM with the nylon bolt. i started with the 11x6 and tuned it up. it was great. the biggest problem i was having was getting hot while running. that's gone. probably better fuel usage in the torque band. i then tried the 10x6. in my opinion, this worked better. maybe my airframe, or line length, but the 10x6 was easier to tune in and keep power in the overhead stuff.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2014, 09:00:49 AM »
Interesting but not sure what it tells us. We are running either Thunder Tiger 11.3-6.5 or Rev-Up 11-7 props on Saito 40's. Really surprised the OS has issues with an 11-6. I have always heard the OS 40 has more power than a Saito 40 but that usually came from an RC flyer. Could be the Saito simply has more torque but I really do not know what I'm talking about, just rambling.


That being contemplated, do whatever works as you are in virgin territory. I don't believe anyone has ever tried running an OS like we do the Saitos. I came up with my setup simply by spending a couple weeks running between my shop and the circle. No real technical stuff just a bunch of flights finding out what worked and what didn't.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2014, 11:22:12 PM »
well, maybe i should point out that it's possibly my set up as opposed to the engine for the use of the smaller prop. it feels like a little too much power with an 11x6. but, that could be a need for longer lines. I'm using the same lines as when i had an OS40LA. it doesn't quite fly the same, so maybe the lines would need to be a little longer.
so, i would highly doubt the OS makes more power than a saito. but it will happily swing an 11" prop all day. im thinking i need to work on tuning an airplane setup, cuz my engine is nice!    8)

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2014, 11:09:49 AM »

Be aware of fuel foaming due to engine vibration!  Watch the fuel line, a few bubbles is ok but too many of them and the needle will not work anymore and your engine will work over lean at peak RPM

I see this problem over and over with Profile Models, even with 2 stroke engines.

I like to use a 4.0Oz Sullivan RST Tank with this pick up filter that helps reduce fuel foaming:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD741&P=ML

How you fix the tank on the fuselage can also contribute to help the fuel foaming problem.


Martin


Old Enya's never die, they just run stronger!

https://www.youtube.com/user/martinSOLO

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2014, 12:20:23 PM »
Martin, you are right about that. i shimmed the tank out raised it slightly and put a little foam between the tank and fuse. that actually cleared up my engine runs. i was able to practice all day, no engine tweaks at all.
os40 surpass
11x6 zinger pro prop.
ys20-20 powermaster fuel
9000 rpm launch
60' lines

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2014, 08:27:32 PM »
Most that tried 4 strokes back when.... did exactly that, tried to apply what they knew worked with 2 strokes to 4 strokes and it simply doesn't work. I believe this is the main reason you don't see many 4 strokes today. Everyone could see the potential but most couldn't get the 2 stroke ideas out of their head and do what needed to be done. <sarcasm on> Everyone knows high pitch props do not work in PA, right... <sarcasm off>


   For the most part, they don't.

    Brett

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2014, 01:20:12 AM »
   For the most part, they don't.

    Brett

On two strokes...

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 10:31:48 AM »
On two strokes...

   On 4-strokes, too. You are compromising your performance to make the engine happy. If you start out deciding you are going to run a 4-stroke no matter what, then you have to pick something that optimizes that. Maybe you have managed that. But you aren't actually comparing your optimum high-pitch 4-stroke system to an optimum 2-stroke system.

  There's nothing magic about 4-strokes that changes the basic physics of the propellor.

     Brett
   

   

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 11:04:21 AM »
i don't think it's any difficulties to the set up. just like a two stroke, we tune and choke down the venturi to get the engine running at a happy rpm. if this were a two stroke .40 it would be around 12500 or 13000 with an 11 inch prop. this four stroke likes 9000 rpm. so to get the plane to fly the same speed , it needs  more pitch. that's the way I'm seeing it so far.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2014, 02:24:45 PM »
   On 4-strokes, too. You are compromising your performance to make the engine happy. If you start out deciding you are going to run a 4-stroke no matter what, then you have to pick something that optimizes that. Maybe you have managed that. But you aren't actually comparing your optimum high-pitch 4-stroke system to an optimum 2-stroke system.

  There's nothing magic about 4-strokes that changes the basic physics of the propellor.

     Brett

I fly with and against piped two strokes and electrics all the time in all kinds of conditions, how is that not directly compairing my 4 strokes to an optimum 2-stroke system. When you or someone else develops a four stroke set up running a low pitch prop that works your opinion might have some credibility.

Four strokes are the least expensive power train one can put in a PA airplane and still be able to fight it out with a $600.00+ piped two stroke under any conditions. For some of us that is all we need to know. I don't run ST 60's because I have seen better if I felt for one second I was getting beat by the power train I would change. So far (since I switched to Saitos) I haven't seen where I was beat by the airplane rather than the pilot.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2014, 10:23:19 PM »
There are people out there who had top class power systems out of 4 stroke with...... Low Pitch setups. Paul Walker  and  Gordan Delany , No one could say  Gordan's Setup with 4 and under pitch did not work really well, at NATs competitions , and Paul  won the NATs using a  13 x 4.  3 blade.

Piped engines are no more expensive than many 4 strokes, one trying to inflate the price of an engine new, and compare it to a used Ebay 4 stroke is silly and wrong, trying to fool people with gross distortions is not right.

Bottom line run what you want, if you think you have a world beater... bring it to the NATs and go up against  setups that are really good, without any distortions.

PS  there are many tapes and videos out there showing both Paul  and Gordy's  hi RPM  low pitch  4 stroke setups.

Randy

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2014, 03:56:53 AM »
Randy, I can sure understand why you are biased, if I were 15 years younger I would take you up on your NATS challenge, as it stands I don't have the energy, time or desire.

Haven't seen either Paul or Gordy publish what engine they used or details on how it was set up. Maybe I missed it. My question would be if anyone else could duplicate what they did and get the same results. I spent a couple months trying everything I could dig up on 4 strokes and wasn't able to make anything work well enough until I started listening to the guys from Dallas. Maybe having to make it work in Oklahoma in anything from 60 - 100 deg days and 15 to 20 MPH wind had something to do with my not being successful with an open intake and low pitch prop.

For some reason unknown to me, some people just can't accept the fact that a Saito 4 stroke running a 6-1/2 to 7 pitch prop can be competitive. It just frustrates me you guys who's opinions are taken to heart and respected by many are so negative on the subject.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2014, 09:04:32 AM »
Randy, I can sure understand why you are biased, if I were 15 years younger I would take you up on your NATS challenge, as it stands I don't have the energy, time or desire.

Haven't seen either Paul or Gordy publish what engine they used or details on how it was set up. Maybe I missed it. My question would be if anyone else could duplicate what they did and get the same results. I spent a couple months trying everything I could dig up on 4 strokes and wasn't able to make anything work well enough until I started listening to the guys from Dallas. Maybe having to make it work in Oklahoma in anything from 60 - 100 deg days and 15 to 20 MPH wind had something to do with my not being successful with an open intake and low pitch prop.

For some reason unknown to me, some people just can't accept the fact that a Saito 4 stroke running a 6-1/2 to 7 pitch prop can be competitive. It just frustrates me you guys who's opinions are taken to heart and respected by many are so negative on the subject.

Hi Bob
First thing, I never said the Saito can't be competitive, nor am I the one that is extremely biased against certain engine setups.
 I don't care what you use as long as it works for you, and your happy, There are/were many others besides the 2 that I mentioned, that have their 4 strokes working very well , and are competitive.
 If your happy with your setup, that is really the only thing that matters, so I would use what you have , by the way, there are many many people who are using piped setups, that they paid 150.00 or so for, Just ask Bill Little, they are still others that use PA engines with high pitch, and are very happy with the way it works.
 Orestes won his first NATs title with a PA 61 and high pitch prop. There are even Yatsenko Models with PA 61s and 65 using high pitch props. There are many way to make both 4 and 2 strokes work, and work very well. So get over your frustrations, no one is telling you that you can't be competitive with your setup.. just go fly and enjoy it.

Randy

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2014, 05:07:55 AM »
Dane, sorry your thread took off on a tangent, last several posts probably should have gone into the debate section.

How are you coming with the OS?

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2014, 12:32:43 PM »
hey Bob! i truly believe I'm in a sweet spot with the engine. the runs have been very consistent and the 11x6 prop is the hot ticket on this set up. as long as my launch rpm is 9000, lap speed and overhead power are excellent.

just for specs sake, the engine peaks out at 9800 then i richened the needle to about 9550. then i slowed it to 9000 with the nylon screw. this provides good fuel usage. i think it's 4 oz for a pattern flight

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2014, 04:30:30 PM »
Thanks for the update, sounds like you have a working combination for the OS. Using ~4 ounces of fuel is a good thing, plenty of oil moving through the engine.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2014, 09:13:07 PM »
    I have a couple of OS FS.40s that I would like to try ona  profile model, but when side mounted, the needle comes out on the bottom. I haven't done any carb mods yet, but the last time I looked at it, I don't remember seeing any obvious way to change side with the needle so it's on top of the airplane. How is yours mounted Dane?
   Thanks a lot,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
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AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2014, 12:31:14 AM »
you are spot on, Dan. the needle sticks out the bottom, muffler side. i believe it would not be too difficult to make a new mount for the NVA spigot, or simply drill and tap the one already in there and install a made up spray bar. then use a remote NVA. however, this is only a conjecture, as i have not done so. sounds like a neat project!

Offline bruce finley

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2014, 08:03:15 AM »
Dane and Bob, I've got a saito 40 coming and plan on doing the bob reaves conversion. Dane have you flown lately, how's it coming?

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Practice today with a new os40fs surpass
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2014, 06:34:55 PM »
i am extremely happy with the set up and amazed at the consistency.  i only have a saito FA.45 (the old one) so i don't have a saito and OS example to do a comparison. but obviously the saito has a very nice reputation.  some people have great luck with just the saito CL setup. i was not able to get good runs with the os without overheating. with the "Reeves" method, im no longer overloading my engine to get good engine runs and reasonable lap times simultaneously.


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