Pancaked my Prowler Practicing on this Windy Day))))

[Shug Emery]

Well.......some days at the flying field leave me a bit chastened. Today was one. First flew my Super Clown and the back part of my OS .35 muffler flew off. Did a grid search to no avail. Again and again. No find.
So....took a break and put the Prowler up. Seemed dodgy on outside loops. It was very windy. But the Prowler was pulling and tracking well. Went into the loops from inverted working on my Beginner Stunt Pattern and the second loop got me. PANCKE)))) Need to take apart off the engine and clean it out well. Lots of soil in the carb. This would be good...right?
Minor cosmetic damage for the most part but did snap off the horizontal stab on the pushrod/control horn side.
I'll ask some repair questions in the building section of this forum. More than likely need to build a whole new tail and beef it up perhaps.
It is part of this hobby. I'll get to it this coming week. Drats.
 From looking at the video it seemed the tail was flexing in flight on the outside loops. I was pulling on the handle and lines pretty hard. Is this at all normal?
I'll be up again soon.
Shug

[wwwarbird]

 Sorry to hear of the Prowler mishap Shug, hope it's an easy fix.

 I'd been planning for the past two weeks on being up there today but the wind was ridiculous so I was forced to abort.

 It was a somewhat productive C/L day however as I spent part of the day here doing some long overdue handle and line sorting and maintenance. That was how I ended up getting my C/L "fix" for today. I'd gotten to a point where I had some handles and lines floating around that I didn't know what planes they went with, and vice versa. Also some other handles and stuff that just needed some looking over and minor work. With that to keep me busy, I enjoyed the day...without pancakes.

 My next window to make it up to the field will be Sunday the 29th, hope the weather cooperates.

[Doug Burright]

Shug,
 Dang it!

I was in a club that made pancakes all day! But, we made them to be eaten.

You should have seen me at the Topeka contest a couple of weeks ago... I scratched the grass with my fin -twice- on the same flight, in the Beginner Stunt contest. I was able to fly through it, with no damage - the grass was not too short. It's a scary occurrence.

I hope you don't have any difficulties repairing yours. Yep, wind is a bummer.

Good luck!

[Steve Fitton]

Profile models always twist to some degree in flight.  Built up fuselages are much more rigid.

At the risk of making a suggestion from the limited info in the video, it looks as though your neutral setting is quite a bit off.  Will the model stay at five feet in level flight with the handle straight up and down?  From what I see on the video I would guess the model is trimmed with too much "up" at the handle, leaving you with a model that uses most of the "down" control available just to stay out of the ground inverted and very little control authority for outside maneuvers.

Use the video camera zoomed in on you instead of the plane for a flight and see what you handle looks like.

[john e. holliday]

To me it does look like he is holding a little down while inverted.   You have to remember the wind will blow the plane down during maneuvers.   Myself, I pancaked the Old Time ISW in Topeka, but it was bad needle setting.   Don't for get to look for internal damage on the plane.

[Herb Calvin]

Ouch Shug, I felt that in Ohio

[steven yampolsky]

The angle may be off but the insides were larger and higher while outsides were too low and too tight. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you are afraid of outside loops and try to rush them.

[Shug Emery]

Sorry to hear of the Prowler mishap Shug, hope it's an easy fix.

 I'd been planning for the past two weeks on being up there today but the wind was ridiculous so I was forced to abort.

 It was a somewhat productive C/L day however as I spent part of the day here doing some long overdue handle and line sorting and maintenance. That was how I ended up getting my C/L "fix" for today. I'd gotten to a point where I had some handles and lines floating around that I didn't know what planes they went with, and vice versa. Also some other handles and stuff that just needed some looking over and minor work. With that to keep me busy, I enjoyed the day...without pancakes.

 My next window to make it up to the field will be Sunday the 29th, hope the weather cooperates.

Glad you got some CL chores done. Always something to do in this hobby. Now some repairs for me.

Shug,
 Dang it!

I was in a club that made pancakes all day! But, we made them to be eaten.

You should have seen me at the Topeka contest a couple of weeks ago... I scratched the grass with my fin -twice- on the same flight, in the Beginner Stunt contest. I was able to fly through it, with no damage - the grass was not too short. It's a scary occurrence.

I hope you don't have any difficulties repairing yours. Yep, wind is a bummer.

Good luck!

Haaaa......Those low inverted sure give on the rush. Glad to hear your plane survived it all. Now I am waffling....

Profile models always twist to some degree in flight.  Built up fuselages are much more rigid.

At the risk of making a suggestion from the limited info in the video, it looks as though your neutral setting is quite a bit off.  Will the model stay at five feet in level flight with the handle straight up and down?  From what I see on the video I would guess the model is trimmed with too much "up" at the handle, leaving you with a model that uses most of the "down" control available just to stay out of the ground inverted and very little control authority for outside maneuvers.

Use the video camera zoomed in on you instead of the plane for a flight and see what you handle looks like.

Thanks for that insight as it I think I agree. Still dailing it in and finding where my neutral handle is. So...a price was paid but repairable. Found my flaps are a bit loose at the metal control horn joining them. Head scratching now....

[Shug Emery]

To me it does look like he is holding a little down while inverted.   You have to remember the wind will blow the plane down during maneuvers.   Myself, I pancaked the Old Time ISW in Topeka, but it was bad needle setting.   Don't for get to look for internal damage on the plane.

I for sure was. Still failing in and learning...the hard way. Epoxy on!

Ouch Shug, I felt that in Ohio

My soul hurt a little on the long drive home.

The angle may be off but the insides were larger and higher while outsides were too low and too tight. If I didn't know any better, I'd say you are afraid of outside loops and try to rush them.

They have been harder to do for sure as I was giving it all I had at the handle. Yes...may be a bit afraid as they seem to always go low.
I'll get there in time. And epoxy.

[Steve Helmick]

When it get it back in the air, do some "lazy 8's" to gauge whether it turns equally inside & outside. If it does not, crank some elevator in to correct that. If your plane won't turn equally inside/outside, it will mess up your timing and an eventual crash is almost certain. Another problem may be your handle's neutral adjustment. VERY important; a little off isn't nearly good enough. Neutral adjustment can take dozens (and dozens) of flights. Having dedicated lines/handle for each plane is mandatory. 

It seemed pretty fast...maybe too fast when you add in the accelleration from the wind. Stepping downwind during the tricks will slow the plane!!! In your 'hood, you will need to learn this...sooner better than later.  Steve 

[Shug Emery]

Been there, done it lots of times. Still do only much less often.   Practice with a coach if at all possible. He will see things you are not aware of such as how you hold your handle, lap times, loops sizes inside and outside. Trim problems you may not be aware of. It never ends and make for lots of flying. Nice flying site by the way.

I do think my handle and a good neutral setting may be a big part of it for me. Will strive to fix that. Thank you for your insight.
I would love to burn more fuel so need to get on the repair. Still looking it over and thinking the best way to do that.

When it get it back in the air, do some "lazy 8's" to gauge whether it turns equally inside & outside. If it does not, crank some elevator in to correct that. If your plane won't turn equally inside/outside, it will mess up your timing and an eventual crash is almost certain. Another problem may be your handle's neutral adjustment. VERY important; a little off isn't nearly good enough. Neutral adjustment can take dozens (and dozens) of flights. Having dedicated lines/handle for each plane is mandatory.  

It seemed pretty fast...maybe too fast when you add in the accelleration from the wind. Stepping downwind during the tricks will slow the plane!!! In your 'hood, you will need to learn this...sooner better than later.   Steve  

My lazy 8s were always good on the inside loop but the outside always wanted to go down more. I do think you are spot on on my handle neutral setting. My handle up adjustment was always a touch forward when checking my lines from handle to plane.
It did speed up as I was having some trouble getting it set on the ground. Kind of a frustrating day all around.
I appreciate your advice on this.
My goal has not been diminished.....I will be back and work at it.

[Avaiojet]

Shug,

Have you ever done a bit in a feature film? Tried to get a bit?

[Brett Buck]

So....took a break and put the Prowler up. Seemed dodgy on outside loops. It was very windy. But the Prowler was pulling and tracking well. Went into the loops from inverted working on my Beginner Stunt Pattern and the second loop got me. PANCKE))))

  One thing for sure - the engine wasn't helping you very much!  In those sorts of whip-up conditions, it should be backing off substantially in the maneuvers to help the speed stay under control.

   I can't tell for sure whether you missed the wind. You want to bias the loops to the left on insides, and the right on outsides, to again, nose the airplane into the wind at the bottom of the loops and help control the speed.

   This looks like  pretty classic whip-up, with the loop opening as the result of the higher speed.

    Brett

[Shug Emery]

Shug,

Have you ever done a bit in a feature film? Tried to get a bit?

I have auditioned........never got the part yet. Maybe my time will come. A weird Grandpa role))))

 One thing for sure - the engine wasn't helping you very much!  In those sorts of whip-up conditions, it should be backing off substantially in the maneuvers to help the speed stay under control.

   I can't tell for sure whether you missed the wind. You want to bias the loops to the left on insides, and the right on outsides, to again, nose the airplane into the wind at the bottom of the loops and help control the speed.

   This looks like  pretty classic whip-up, with the loop opening as the result of the higher speed.

    Brett

Thanks Brett. Means a lot coming from you and makes sense. I got a lot to learn. But I will...I will I say. And I did not get a good needle on that run. One of those days. Went home with head hanging low.
Took the engine off today to clean it and now trying to figure the repair.
Thankee.

[Brett Buck]

I have auditioned........never got the part yet. Maybe my time will come. A weird Grandpa role))))
Thanks Brett. Means a lot coming from you and makes sense. I got a lot to learn. But I will...I will I say. And I did not get a good needle on that run. One of those days. Went home with head hanging low.
Took the engine off today to clean it and now trying to figure the repair.
Thankee.

   Just a part of the learning process, you are doing fine.

    It's quite amazing how getting the engine just right can help you, and getting it just wrong can cause huge problems.

    Brett

[Shug Emery]

   Just a part of the learning process, you are doing fine.

    It's quite amazing how getting the engine just right can help you, and getting it just wrong can cause huge problems.

    Brett

Well...I am having a terrific time with it. Need to build up my fleet! Control line is intense.
Thanks for the inspirational words.

[RC Storick]

Like Brett said it's part of the learning process. We have all don it and if someone says they have not they are not try hard enough. One year at the team trials I did a 3 inch inverted pull out and wiped out my rudder and prop on pavement. Same thing as happened to you the wind was too much for the plane or I was trying too hard. Kind of embarrassing in front of the top guys. But oh well I tried,

[john e. holliday]

As Sparky says, we've all done it.   Just stay with it and lets not have a burn out from too much.   I've seen that too many times.

[Shug Emery]

Like Brett said it's part of the learning process. We have all don it and if someone says they have not they are not try hard enough. One year at the team trials I did a 3 inch inverted pull out and wiped out my rudder and prop on pavement. Same thing as happened to you the wind was too much for the plane or I was trying too hard. Kind of embarrassing in front of the top guys. But oh well I tried,

That makes me feel better. Some say I get a wee enthusiastic about things but why not.
In looking at the post-crash I realized I have some flop in my flaps at the metal control horn that joins the two flaps. I will beef that up and fix the and make a new horizontal stab that broke at the fuse.
Glad to hear I am not alone!
Thanks for your comment. I love your site here.

As Sparky says, we've all done it.   Just stay with it and lets not have a burn out from too much.   I've seen that too many times.

Thanks Doc. I am all good with this and understand failure! I'll have the Prowler back better than before and look forward to getting good at this.
If your gonna do it....over-do it)))))
I cleaned the engine good and bench ran it today after checking the tank. I was happy with the run.
So....on the way.
Still mulling the repair strategy.

[Ron Cribbs]

I learned about wind bias last year. Wiped out the rudder and canopy on a Ringmaster, also cracked the LE in 3 spots.

Crashing is learning! At least I hope it is as I have done it a lot!

[Shug Emery]

I learned about wind bias last year. Wiped out the rudder and canopy on a Ringmaster, also cracked the LE in 3 spots.

Crashing is learning! At least I hope it is as I have done it a lot!

So....I am not alone! Well, you gotta be in it to win it. Best way to learn.
Hope your Ringer is back up and flying.

[John Stiles]

I don't understand why inverted touch-and-goes aren't added in to the stunt pattern, that's one of my better achievements  Yours was very accurate! Sorry for laughing, I've been told that when you laugh at your own jokes, you're a little bit crazy.

[Shug Emery]

I don't understand why inverted touch-and-goes aren't added in to the stunt pattern, that's one of my better achievements  Yours was very accurate! Sorry for laughing, I've been told that when you laugh at your own jokes, you're a little bit crazy.

Seems it happens enough I reckon!
It is better to laugh than shed man-tears))))
Thankee

[Shug Emery]

Got the Prowler repaired and took it out for a windy day trim flight or two. Nice to have it back.
Shug

[Ward Van Duzer]

Shug,
Like Brett Said... You gotta bias your loops in the wind! Ask me how I learned that one!

W.  

[Paul Taylor]

Whooo Buddy!!!!

Glad your back in the saddle. 

[Avaiojet]

Shug,

You have the most interesting videos!

Gotta love it!!

Do you think you should slow your lap time a bit?

[Shug Emery]

Shug,
Like Brett Said... You gotta bias your loops in the wind! Ask me how I learned that one!

W.  

I'm getting a feel for that now that I understand what bias means))))
Tonight I was reading an article you had written in the PAMPA mag from 1993 tonight. Still holds true.
I appreciate it.

Whooo Buddy!!!!

Glad your back in the saddle. 

I am happy to have the Prowler flying once again. Tough repair!

Shug,

You have the most interesting videos!

Gotta love it!!

Do you think you should slow your lap time a bit?

Thanks....I like looking up at the clouds with the lazy 8s going through. Trying to find good angles to film the planes.
I am going to work on the run tomorrow. It was at 4.7 so I do need to slow down. I have a 10x6 prop and waiting for some 10.5x4 props. That mat help.