Bias handle

[bill rutherford]

After reading Bob Hunts ama mag article about how you hold your handle. I looked at the way I hold my handle and sure enough ,I hold it wrong. I know Bob knows what he is talking about as it's hard to argue with success. Now I have held the handle this way all my stunt career. Now as I'm turning 71 I think it is a little late to change. Well have any of you tried to change a habit that you have had for over fifty years and had success?    Bill Rutherford

[Mike Keville]

. . . Well have any of you tried to change a habit that you have had for over fifty years and had success? . . .

======================================================

Well, I tried to quit smoking (60 years now) a couple of times.  Didn't work.

(Definitely off-topic there.  Sorry 'bout that.)

[Steve Helmick]

Yes, you can do this! I changed from a cable handle to a hardpoint Tom Morris biased handle, biased handle to a Ted handle, and even trained myself to not tilt the handle CCW when flying inverted. The last was perhaps hardest, but I started that late Fall and then again in Spring. Maybe 6-10 sessions. I would only suggest that you start with some extra prop clearance and cheap props, 'cause you might buzz one or two.  Steve   

[Curare]

Whats wrong with tilting the handle inverted?

[Steve Helmick]

Ted says you want to keep the handle straight up/down, not turn your hand palm up to fly inverted, etc.  That's good enough for me. If Brian Eather told you to do something, wouldn't you? Well, as long as it wasn't to cluck like a chook!  Steve

[James_Mynes]

I roll my hand palm up when inverted. It's how I learned to fly and I don't see it changing any time soon. Of course, this may be what has held me back from winning any contests.

[Doug Moon]

I roll my palm upwards when flying inverted.  I learned that way too.  I don't want to change it on purpose. Inverted/outside maneuvers are different than upright/inside maneuvers.  The motion in the wrist and arm is different for the two maneuvers.

I fly with a non bias handle position as well and would urge anyone at any age at any level to try to use that handle postion as well. 

[Dick Pacini]

I always felt that going inverted during the first half of the wing-over palm down was a very smooth motion.

[James_Mynes]

I know this is only the inverted portion of the reverse wingover, but Ted clearly rolls his hand palm up in the video. I'd like to see his whole flight from this point of view.

[Brett Buck]

One problem with trying some one else's technique, is you better get ALL the info on how they do what they do. I tried one very famous flyers technique, not realizing a critical item and placed my new stunter in the ground. Most embarassing and as I thought about it, I relaized he and I were not the same size, nor did I wear my hat like he did. A year later I saw what I did wrong.=

    There is undeniable risk to changing something as fundamental as your hand position. Some of my cohorts have changed most of their affectations, but left a few in place just to avoid any chance of crashing. A lot of things (like putting your hand sideways during inverted flight) get so ingrained over so many years that you are certainly taking a risk. It's probably causing problems, but with a lot of effort you can overcome them well enough. In other cases, it can take you from perpetual Advanced to competitive - so it's worth some disruption for a while.

    Where it is a shame to teach these hoary old practices is with beginners. They should just start out doing it right so they don't have to fix it later, even if there are more crashes up front. The handle bias thing comes at least partly from the "lock your wrist" training technique, which is most the most destructive of these ideas. It might hold down on the crashes for the first hour and a half of someone's stunt career, but after that, it just causes problems. Like anything, it can be overcome, but why create issues, and then learn to overcome them, when you can avoid it entirely with slightly more effort up front?

     Brett
    

[Brett Buck]

I know this is only the inverted portion of the reverse wingover, but Ted clearly rolls his hand palm up in the video. I'd like to see his whole flight from this point of view.

   His hand will be sideways, palm up,  any time the airplane is in consistent inverted flight. This is the only affectation of this type he has (and was the "cohort" referred to above).

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

Yes Ted may have laid his hand on its back during the inverted portion of the RW.   But, how did he hold it during the rest of the flight.   It really is all in how you practice and what you get used to.   As the saying goes, if you try something new and it works, stay with it.  If not go back to what was working for you.   It wasn't until I decided to pay attention to my flying that I discovered I was moving my hand from vertical to horizontal during maneuvers.   Once I got hand to stay mostly vertical I quit having problems.   Still have to watch it as lately I have problems with balance if I don't get the feet planted right.

[EddyR]

In the video above Ted is using a cabled handle. Paul Won VSC with a cabled handle,I think it was a hot Rock . I am not telling any one cabled handles are better. Some people do sue them sometimes.

[Andrew Tinsley]

Hello All,
I don't have any experience at the highest level of Control Line Stunt. But I do coach prone rifle shooting. Here, one sets up a shooter in the "average" position and go from there.
Looking at world class shots, they all have their own individual quirks, some of which are far from the mainstream position. These positions have been developed by individual shooters to maximise their score.
I would go almost as far as to say that there isn't a wrong position, if it suits you then fine.
So I would be a little wary of saying one method of holding a stunt handle is the "correct" way, because I am sure that if you look at the top flyers around, they will all have their own "hold" that works best for them.

Andrew.

[Curare]

Well I guess if I'm going to change, now is the time. My habits are not so ingrained (every flight is a learning experience), and I've already swapped from a biased handle to a Fancher style one.

Might as well give the vertical handle a go inverted.

[Steve Helmick]

In the video above Ted is using a cabled handle. Paul Won VSC with a cabled handle,I think it was a hot Rock . I am not telling any one cabled handles are better. Some people do sue them sometimes.

Paul's intent was to win while using stuff from 1969, and he did that. Including propeller (Y&O), engine (McCoy RH), Skylark from a Sterling kit (yikes!) and Hot Rock handle. But I'd bet that would be the only reason he'd use a Hot Rock or any other cable handle.  Steve

[Andrew Tinsley]

When I first started to fly control line stunters  (about 1956), I used what is now called a hard point handle, I have never used anything else. The cable type handles seem to be some sort of abomination! They look to be stretchy and prone to wear and breakages. Did they become popular in the US for any special reason? Do thy have any advantages?

Andrew.

[Dave_Trible]

I have always used a 'cable' handle and always will.  They are usually more readily and finitely adjustable without needing an assortment of various length line connectors.  A well made handle will last many years without breakage and there is no stretch to it.  The 'hard point ', or fulcrum occurs wherever the cable- or line connector exits the handle.  Some handles position that further out in front of the fingers which deadens the control response some.  One can extend the cable exit point forward on a cable handle and get the same feel.  I suppose if I attached the line connector right where the cable exits the handle instead of a few inches out I'd have a hard point handle.

Dave

[Bob Reeves]

Not everyone has visions of winning the NATS some of us are perfectly happy with perpetual Advanced. I switched to hard point handles and liked it but my hand will forever be palm up when inverted. I'm not so sure it's a bad thing, all you are doing is flying level laps.

[Ted Fancher]

In the video above Ted is using a cabled handle. Paul Won VSC with a cabled handle,I think it was a hot Rock . I am not telling any one cabled handles are better. Some people do sue them sometimes.

Hi Eddie,

What I can tell you without a doubt is that the video was taken prior to 1994-95.  '94 was the year I caddied for Paul in Shanghai and while carrying his handle decided if Paul uses one of these I probably should, too.  Never again flew a competitive flight with a cable handle after making the first Ted handle.  It was the same thing after the last time I beat Paul at a long ago Golden State.  I barely edge him out with an old ST powered ship and he was flying a tuned pipe set-up which I was reluctant to get into.  Then he let me fly his ship and I realized that, once again, if Paul is using it I probably should as well.

I.e. my inverted flight palm-up flight.  Yup, I've done that for almost 60 years and am reluctant to try to change it given the fact I only fly a few dozen flights a year anymore.  I do, however, advocate it for those still aiming to maximize their potential.  It's part of the control system and biasing it 90 degrees to do some tricks isn't in the best interest of perfection in the tricks.  Brett's pretty much a poster boy for doing the right things...looks like robot man just standing their moving his fingers up and down in rhythm with the Infinite doing exactly the right things the vast majority of the time.

Ted

[Brett Buck]

The 'hard point ', or fulcrum occurs wherever the cable- or line connector exits the handle.  Some handles position that further out in front of the fingers which deadens the control response some.  One can extend the cable exit point forward on a cable handle and get the same feel. 

  The connection point on my Ted handle is closer to my wrist than any Baron handle could get, by quite a lot, at least 1/2". Most are like that. So in addition to more positive control, it also has less overhang. It most certainly DOES NOT deaden the control response.

   Brett

   

[Brett Buck]

Hi Eddie,

What I can tell you without a doubt is that the video was taken prior to 1994-95.  '

  It was much later than that, but I think it is the Tucker with the 8, er, 7.5 ounces of lead, up at the NWR in Albany. I think the infamous bee incident was the next day.

    Brett

[Mike Haverly]

    While I take note of the thread drift, I'll still add my two cents concerning hand position.  It so happens that I learned to fly with my palm down and up being on the end opposite to nearly everyone else in the world. Yes, the handle is backward to everyone else.  When I first started this "stunt" thing after a thirty year hiatus it was natural to pick up the handle the same way I learned in 1955.  Over the last ten years or so I've managed to get my hand nearly vertical for most of the flight, including inverted, but it still backward from everyone else.  I was told that it was wrong and that it wouldn't work well and should learn to fly correctly.  I tried, a little bit, and soon found out that it would be impossible without breaking a lot of equipment.  Funny thing is that when someone else flies one of my airplanes neutral is still the same, usually just a matter of reversing the handle.  As far as any bias goes, I've tried that also and neutral is no longer in the middle, or so it seems.

    Wrong or not I'll just stumble along the only way that works for me.  If it feels right, then, it is right!  Or at least to me.

[Dave_Trible]

  The connection point on my Ted handle is closer to my wrist than any Baron handle could get, by quite a lot, at least 1/2". Most are like that. So in addition to more positive control, it also has less overhang. It most certainly DOES NOT deaden the control response.

   Brett

   

Well that makes perfect sense.  If you pardon my crude sketch I'll expand on my point a little.  The handle on the left shows what line attachment point ( line connector OR cable exit point) does to handle response.  If your connection is closer to your wrist pivot it will be faster to respond regardless of how the handle is constructed.  On the right is the pattern for my cable handle.  I can adjust the cable exit to get whatever feel or response I want.  I keep these in pretty close to my knuckles. When more hangover is present more movement is wasted lifting the attachment vertically than pulling linearly.

Dave

[Ted Fancher]

  It was much later than that, but I think it is the Tucker with the 8, er, 7.5 ounces of lead, up at the NWR in Albany. I think the infamous bee incident was the next day.

    Brett

Brett,

Do you really think so?  The Tucker was built for the 11th VSC (~2000 A.D.) and I could have sworn I built a special "Ted" handle painted to match the airplane?  If I remember correctly The Tucker came after the Chizler which I did fly with a Ted handle which, IIRC, was the last one I built all by hand before starting "production" and it had brass arms vice steel...no?

Ted

[Randy Cuberly]

In reading this thread I never saw anyone else answer the question as to why it's better to keep the handle upright in inverted flight, so I will.
First let me say that I fly with a Ted handle and no wrist bias but do turn my handle sideways for inverted flight.  I spent many hours trying to change that and like several others here soon realized that since I had learned that way and flown that way for many many years before I discovered the disadvantage to it, I realized that I would probably never live long enough to change the habit, and stopped trying.
Now to the reason why it's better not to learn that way!
When the handle is turned sideways either leading the airplane or trailing it with the handle will affect the controls of the airplane and cause and up or down control that makes it more difficult to fly nice and straight and level (the only thing you really want to do inverted).  Correcting for this problem is simple in theory, just keep the handle lined up with the wing tip all the time...easy?  Sometimes it is and sometimes it "ain't"...high wind makes it much more difficult (at least it does for me).  The result is that the airplane has a tendency to hunt a little more than if the handle is upright all the time.  With a lot of concentration...if I had that, I'd probably fly 580's instead of 550's...it's possible to fly inverted very well with the handle sideways, but it's easier with the handle upright. 
The rub in trying to relearn is that if something causes a panic situation we all...well me at any rate...tend to panic right back to what our muscle memory and reflexes have been taught and that's usually an instant crash!!!

Randy Cuberly

[Curare]

That makes sense, I always like to have a little theory behind me when I try something.


...even if the theory is of my own creation and half cooked!

[Doug Moon]

Randy,

Thanks for the explanation.  All these years I have known if you are inverted palm up and you get scared just stop turning with the plane down wind and the plane will flip right over on its own.  That's what I was told back in the early 90s when learning to fly inverted.

I never put it together that it could cause hunting or unwanted movements of the controls as the plane completes a lap, DUH!

I have noticed over the past few years when I am flying perfectly palm up the lines will vibrate some.  Not much at all it's barely noticeable but it is there.  It drives me INSANE!  I think they get turbulence off each other, is that even possible?  Once I am into lap two I rotate the handle somewhere between vertical and horizontal and the vibration stops immediately.  I used to just fly with the vibration but once I figured out how to stop it having it is simply not an option.

[john e. holliday]

Too bad we don't have a video of the great Billy Werwage flying the pattern.   I watched him almost every time he flew at VSC and talk about a robot,  he looked like it.  It seemed the handle never moved from in front of his face or just a little below.   Hardly seen his wrist movement except in the squares.   But, I get more fun watching the pilots than the airplanes.   Have watched Dave Trible through the years and we used to razz him a lot for his ballet dancing while flying in his younger years.   As most who know him realize he is not all that big.   Reminds me a lot of the late Ed Southwick.  Who was another person to watch flying.  Those coming up through the ranks need to just sit and watch the top notch flyers like Hunt, the Moons,  Walker and a few others.  Don't watch the plane, just watch the pilot.

[John Stiles]

Well have any of you tried to change a habit that you have had for over fifty years .............?    Bill Rutherford

Several....most were disastrous!

[john e. holliday]

Hey Bro Bill,  had to go look at the initial post on this after seeing John's post.   You kid you,  I thought you were older than me.   One habit I am still working on is smoking.  Been since Thanksgiving eve 1988 when I lit that last cigarette and almost choked on it.  Still quitting as I still get the urge to light up. 

[Brett Buck]

When I first started to fly control line stunters  (about 1956), I used what is now called a hard point handle, I have never used anything else. The cable type handles seem to be some sort of abomination! They look to be stretchy and prone to wear and breakages. Did they become popular in the US for any special reason? Do thy have any advantages?

   The Baron-style handle was popular because it was highly adjustable. It was a huge improvement over the Hot Rock, not because it had cables, but because it was practical to separate out the trim of the airplane from the handle characteristics. Back in the good old days, you built the airplane with a 3" bellcrank and whatever ratios were easy, flew it with a ~4" Hot Rock or 5" EZ-Just, and if it was too twitchy, you piled on nose weight until it was OK.

   Then the Baron handle comes along, with adjustable spacing, overhang, bias, and inflight-adjustable neutral. You could trim the airplane separately from the controls, so you didn't cripple yourself with piles of noseweight, or whatever you needed to make it flyable. It had a cable, just like a Hot Rock, but aside from a few people, no one realized that there was any problem with it. I didn't believe there was anything wrong until Ted basically hounded me to try his second prototype, and that was around 96-97.

   People were not stupid back in the 50s (or 60's/70/80/90/00/10's) but the state of the art moves on, at a pretty good pace.

    Brett

[John Stiles]

Hey Bro Bill,  had to go look at the initial post on this after seeing John's post.   You kid you,  I thought you were older than me.   One habit I am still working on is smoking.  Been since Thanksgiving eve 1988 when I lit that last cigarette and almost choked on it.  Still quitting as I still get the urge to light up. 

You can do it Doc! I quit cold turkey 14 years ago. You just got to set your mind to it.

[Ted Fancher]

Randy,

Thanks for the explanation.  All these years I have known if you are inverted palm up and you get scared just stop turning with the plane down wind and the plane will flip right over on its own.  That's what I was told back in the early 90s when learning to fly inverted.

I never put it together that it could cause hunting or unwanted movements of the controls as the plane completes a lap, DUH!

I have noticed over the past few years when I am flying perfectly palm up the lines will vibrate some.  Not much at all it's barely noticeable but it is there.  It drives me INSANE!  I think they get turbulence off each other, is that even possible?  Once I am into lap two I rotate the handle somewhere between vertical and horizontal and the vibration stops immediately.  I used to just fly with the vibration but once I figured out how to stop it having it is simply not an option.

Doug,

I'm with you!  Never thought about the effects on steady inverted being related to the horizontal relationship between the handle itself and where the ship is at a given moment.  I'm also guilty of being among the worst practitioners of (inverted) level flight ever to have won the Walker Cup!  Wonder if there's something to be learned there?  

Thanks Randy.  Not sure I'll ever fix it but I'm now sublime about the late in life decay of my scores.  I'll blame it on Bob Emmett who taught me to fly stunt 50+ years ago and skipped that lesson!

Ted

Maybe, if I'm ever in the air again, I'll try it out at about 50 degrees!  Any lower than that and I'm sure I'll not have to worry about wiping the amps...er, oil off the remains.

[Brett Buck]

I'm with you!  Never thought about the effects on steady inverted being related to the horizontal relationship between the handle itself and where the ship is at a given moment.  I'm also guilty of being among the worst practitioners of (inverted) level flight ever to have won the Walker Cup!  Wonder if there's something to be learned there?  

   That's why people teach it, right?  If you get confused, stop turning, and the airplane will move away from the ground.

    This one is (obviously, given the record) not the worst thing you can do. It's upright when you start the maneuvers, mostly.

     I see others get into A LOT of trouble trying to twist their arm around to match the airplane, even in the square 8.

  The biggest posture/body positioning problems for most people seem to be caused by the wild handle-waving and crouching/leaning/jumping that seems to go along with it. I know how people get started like that, and some of that was necessary back when we had to "help" the airplane a lot. But it also leads to difficulty maintaining consistency, and along with it, the need to fly flight-after-flight-after-flight just to keep all the steps/jumps/waves working just right - and also to shape errors.

   I might be argued for being the robotic poster boy for consistent posture, but Uncle Jimby has made the most change to what he was doing, and it probably had the biggest (positive) effect on the results that I have seen. I was also a "pistol grip" guy until I saw the light - or was that the well-justified bludgeon to the side of the head from my mentor?


     Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

Randy,

Thanks for the explanation.  All these years I have known if you are inverted palm up and you get scared just stop turning with the plane down wind and the plane will flip right over on its own.  That's what I was told back in the early 90s when learning to fly inverted.

I never put it together that it could cause hunting or unwanted movements of the controls as the plane completes a lap, DUH!

I have noticed over the past few years when I am flying perfectly palm up the lines will vibrate some.  Not much at all it's barely noticeable but it is there.  It drives me INSANE!  I think they get turbulence off each other, is that even possible?  Once I am into lap two I rotate the handle somewhere between vertical and horizontal and the vibration stops immediately.  I used to just fly with the vibration but once I figured out how to stop it having it is simply not an option.

Very interesting about the vibration Doug.  I too have noticed that.  Like you I'm able to rotate the handle to about a "half" upright position and it stops.  It may simply be caused by a dampening effect of twisting the lines against the leadout guides.  This may stabilize the leadouts so the vibration resonance is contained within the airplane.  This is just a theory and might be full of holes but frankly I can't imagine that it has anything to do with the aerodynamics of the lines, etc.
I'm supposed to be a "super expert" on vibration but frankly most of what I know beyond analysis and testing is that it's a very complex science that sometimes defies analysis.  Simply too many variables sometimes!
I just know that under the right circumstances everything will "shake". 

Randy Cuberly

[Ted Fancher]

 
snip!

   I might be argued for being the robotic poster boy for consistent posture, but Uncle Jimby has made the most change to what he was doing, and it probably had the biggest (positive) effect on the results that I have seen. I was also a "pistol grip" guy until I saw the light - or was that the well-justified bludgeon to the side of the head from my mentor?


     Brett

I don't know, Brett.  I think I could have overcome his "posture progress": it's what happened after he stole the "motor" out of Paulette's hair drier and put it in his funny looking purple stunt airplane (oh, wait, purple....where's the delete button) that I've given in to the inevitable.  I believe I'm now a full time kibitzer.

Oh, and no way I'd bludgeon your chrome dome.  Inadequate protection.  The only good news in these two posts is that Paulette can steal Uncle Jimby's hair drier and he'll never notice.

Ted

[Steve Helmick]

I don't think changing from a biased handle to a "straight up" TED Handle is a huge deal, and highly recommend it.

But the way you fly inverted, handle flat or reversed, (like Mike Haverly and Jimmy Johnson do)...no, don't try to change that. But if somebody can't fly inverted yet, please please please don't teach them to turn the handle flat, palm up. I guess I'm doomed to be an arm-waver forever. Flag-waver, too, for that matter.  Steve

[Balsa Butcher]

Palm down reverse inverted flier here. Pancaked in two (old) planes trying to switch to vertical. Tough habit to break. Gave up trying. Realized the bigger issue isn't the 90' rotation of the wrist, but the random waving of the arm all over the place, in and out, up and down and  side to side (as has been mentioned by both Doc and Brett) that was keeping me out of Expert. Gradually this bad habit is being broken and scores have improved. Breaking this habit is not easy but it can be done.    

[Damian Paten]

Ok, I have to ask.
Whats a "TED" handle?
I am just returning to the hobby from many years rest so I'm not quite up to the terms and I have missed a lot in between.
I have tried searching for a pic but I have had no luck. I am currently in the process of building a Nobler and I am about to purchase a new handle and lines etc.
Please excuse my lack of knowledge.   

Cheers.
Damian.

[Noel Corney]

Damian, When you come around to my place I will be giving you 1 or 2 of these as well as other things you can use. Don't spend money you don't need to . Noel.

[Damian Paten]

Damian, When you come around to my place I will be giving you 1 or 2 of these as well as other things you can use. Don't spend money you don't need to . Noel.

  Really.
You are to kind Noel.
 

[Lauri Malila]

Hi.

Even if many good pilots do it, it is not correct to fly inverted with palm up. So don't take them as role models. If possible, learn to fly handle in vertical position. Generally it's not a big issue, mostly only in very turbulent weather, or if sorface in center of circle is uneven, or if you have to whip the model.

Lauri

[EddyR]

Two weeks ago at our Hunterville contest on sunday I watched  all the expert flights and launched several of them. One thing i noticed is most of them hold there hand at near 35 degrees entering a square corner.Tiping to the left on inside and to the right on outside corners. They all think they have ther hands straight up all the time.

[john e. holliday]

That is where a video of the pilots posture and hand location during the flight would be good.   And these guys with the knowledge to run the videos side by side, you know like the TV guys when they are showing cars on the track plus pit stops at the same time.  Maybe someone will just concentrate on the pilots flying in the center and not the airplane.  The good stunt pilots should know what maneuver each pilot is doing during the pattern.

[John Stiles]

Hi.

Even if many good pilots do it, it is not correct to fly inverted with palm up. So don't take them as role models. If possible, learn to fly handle in vertical position. Generally it's not a big issue, mostly only in very turbulent weather, or if sorface in center of circle is uneven, or if you have to whip the model.

Lauri

I'm sorta glad I never learned any other way than straight up and down. For me it's a lot less complicated. 

[dirty dan]

Bill,

I don't think switching to a handle held vertically in level flight is that hard. Especially when there are benefits.

There were some minor issues when I first switched but use of a 20FP-powered ARF Flite Streak went far in eliminating concern over loss of a PA model.

The real issue was that it was felt my progress was too slow in adapting to new handle position. I solved this by dialing in handle bias opposite to what I had used for some 35-plus years. Now that felt really goofy and while there were no yard-sale incidents there were some close calls. But note that a close call with a Pukey Profile ARF is merely a giggle...

Flew several flights that way. When going back to a vertical setting (and of course I was using a Ted Handle during all this mucking around), while it still didn't feel instantly magic and was not an epiphany, a lot of progress was made with those few flights.

My suggestion is to for it. Just begin with a disposable model of some sort.

Dan   

[Dick Pacini]

Hi.

Even if many good pilots do it, it is not correct to fly inverted with palm up. So don't take them as role models. If possible, learn to fly handle in vertical position. Generally it's not a big issue, mostly only in very turbulent weather, or if sorface in center of circle is uneven, or if you have to whip the model.

Lauri

With all due respect, shouldn't it be the modeler's choice to position his/her hand in a way that feels comfortable during maneuvers?  Where is it written that vertical is the only way?  Perhaps no NATS winner or top 5 ever flew palm up or palm down doesn't mean that position is wrong.  What works for some is not necessarily good or bad for all.

[Brett Buck]

With all due respect, shouldn't it be the modeler's choice to position his/her hand in a way that feels comfortable during maneuvers?  Where is it written that vertical is the only way? 

   Of course you can choose, anybody can hold their hand any way they want.

   But, the point of giving advice is to provide an opinion. It's my opinion that you are going to make it easier on yourself in the long run to do it the way I suggest. This is based on my own experiences, and the observations of many others going through the same issues, and the improvements they made.


   Same with any other advice, people can certainly fly Foxes and ST46s, run open hinge lines, use Hot Rock with half-a-ton of noseweight. All those things will make it much harder to achieve the same results, or cause you to expend far more effort to get better, which is why they are not recommended but certainly no one is going to stop you.

    No one is compelled to take advice, if they don't, just ignore it and move on. But don't expect everyone else to stop giving it.

    Brett

[Ted Fancher]

I think it is important to note that the whole hardpoint vice cable handle/ vertical vice biased grips/skinny solids vice fatter cables/upright vice palm up or down (and I'm sure there are more) discussion is driven by the way the consistently high finishing in major competition, top level fliers have refined their equipment in the PAMPA/internet era; combined with the desire of fliers hoping to displace these guys to refine their patterns to do so. 

I've lived through the vast majority of stunt history--either as an avid young learner or as a committed competitor--and think I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the ability of fliers to share their own experiences, experiments, triumphs and failures with the rest of our small fraternity of fliers has reached proportions that were unthinkable when I first started flying.  The ability to do so and the interest it attracts has allowed us to work our way through the big stuff that allows almost anyone to reach the local Expert level and all the way down the list of less obvious but still important things (power trains, flight trim [CG, tail size, aspect ratios and any number of primarily aerodynamic factors that influence the quality of our tricks) and now, having pretty much filled the library in those regards a have worked our way to the other end of the lines where the mechanics meet the manipulator.

When combined with the willingness of the very best of us, Paul, Brett, Bobby Who, Igor and any number of others to share what they've learned that help them become household words in stunt homes we now enjoy the distinct pleasure of being able to discuss the minutiae of things that take one from local expert to National or World Championship levels.  There is literally no aspect of stunt flying that hasn't been learned, shared, debated, debunked and/or certified as gospel through the products and universal resources provided by the hard work of guys like four decades of Stunt News Editors, Sparky and the Newmanns.

So, first of all, a big thank you to those who have made the resources available to do so.  Wouldn't hurt to throw a few names into the discussion, by the way.

The level of discussion that has resulted from the debate started back in the mid '90s or so about the control handle/human handler has been, almost unique,  with respect to its continued interest and ability to generate differing opinions and advocacy.  Yup, We've had the schnerle wars; the tuned pipe wars; the four stroke advocacy era, the contentious ARF debate, the struggle for acceptance of (yuch!) Faraday based powerplants; all of which were vigorously debated but in a comparatively short time selected winners and losers and became either universally accepted or matters of personal choice and more or less disappeared from the forums and pages of the press (albeit Bubba Hunt keeps the bugles blowing pretty consistently for the coil and magnet crowd although the votes have pretty much been tallied).  Yet, here we are 20 years into the discussion of the most basic aspect of our endeavors still discussing the interface between the human and his machine.  I think that is fascinating!  I haven't done it but I would guess a search of threads on Stuka Stunt and Stunthangar would uncover several dozen different threads on the subject of handles, in particular the emergence of hard point types as a viable if not superior alternative to the previously superior and ubiquitous Baron style adjustable cable type.  Second would be the number addressing preferences for and arguments pro and con re vertical grip versus the "natural or pistol" grip versions.

Now, just when you think the thing has been beat to death the current subject, the potential for mechanically induced errors to patterns based on how the handle is held in the pilots hand while doing the tricks.  Awesome!

That our discussions have resolved the puzzles down to this degree of fine tuning can only be a good thing.  Read it all and enjoy the fact that we all can.

[Steve Helmick]

Top two are my TED handles, 60g. each. Many pull the 'brackets' in as close as possible while clearing the fingers, glue them with CA, and tighten down the screws very well. I finished these two from kits, but many make clones from aluminum or CF plate. This grip tape is intended for fishing rods, but tennis racket stuff works fine, and there are other alternatives. The finish is two coats of finishing epoxy, sanded after the first coat. Second coat was acceptably smooth, but some really polish the snot out of them. The sweet thing about handle kits is that you can make them fit your hand. 

Next picture is Paul Walker's "Predator" handle, made from CF plate. I think he said under 20 grams. With CF, you have to bush the holes. Light weight is especially important if line tension is low, such as small models or bad trim or just when things are going "South". Better to feel how loose the lines are, rather than the weight of the handle.

Standard procedure is to use 3 stock clips and one longer than standard clip to adjust neutral. One handle and set of lines for each model. This saves a lot of messing around, flying with misadjusted neutral...a very good way to crash. My process is to use two stock clips on the plane end, and leave one on one of the LO's, and one on the other line. I leave both clips on the handle, and of course hook to the plane first and handle last, when running out the lines. Others do it opposite, but I'd rather not drag my handle across the asphalt. I think I have a picture of the Derek Moran clip bending fixture, but here's a picture of the standard Sullivan clip. I use 3 of these and one longer, homemade one.    Steve

[John Stiles]

.... flying with misadjusted neutral...a very good way to crash.     Steve

Or spend five minutes with your wrist locked in the up position which results in a cramped forearm muscle! Ask me how I know this! LOL

[KevinCrowns]

Hey Bro Bill,  had to go look at the initial post on this after seeing John's post.   You kid you,  I thought you were older than me.   One habit I am still working on is smoking.  Been since Thanksgiving eve 1988 when I lit that last cigarette manufactured by ecigs manufacturerand almost choked on it.  Still quitting as I still get the urge to light up.  

Well friend I am following similar path and trying hard to quit smoking.. What measures have you taken to quit this horrible habit..

[john e. holliday]

Try a bag of black licorice for as long as you can stand it.   Every time you want to light up eat a piece of licorice.   One day you will stand up to flush the eternal throne and notice what is there.   That does it for me as I still think of what my insides looked like back then and it reminds me of what the cigarettes do to the lungs. 

Now to the hard point handle.   It is hard to convince some people that you need to check and set neutral on any handle before fueling the plane so you can fly.   My grandson is learning by experience why he should set the neutral before take off.   It has cost me a prop or two.   

[Steve Helmick]

Now to the hard point handle.   It is hard to convince some people that you need to check and set neutral on any handle before fueling the plane so you can fly.   My grandson is learning by experience why he should set the neutral before take off.   It has cost me a prop or two.   

That right there is why you want a dedicated set of lines and handle for each plane. At minimum, it saves you going around and around (and around), flying out a tank (or battery) because the neutral is off. Finding the exactly right neutral is a very subtle adjustment and will affect your takeoff and your upright/inverted "groove" at 4.9'. PTG has been said to take months to get neutral set to his satisfaction. My own experience was similar...with my SV-11, I could get my upright/inverted groove pretty good, but the darned thing always leaped into the air too quickly. Pete and Mike told me to adjust my handle, but I dragged my feet. Finally did, after a couple months, and was shocked and amazed. I guess lessons learned hard are lessons well learned? My current dog needs to be coaxed to get off the ground in 1/4 lap and climb to 4.9'...I think that's about right.

As for smoking...never done it, so never had the problem. HOWEVER...I have talked to a few smokers who said "I want to quit" or "I will try to quit", or "I should quit". What they need to say and think and believe is "I AM going to quit, I will NEVER pick up another one of those things again, ever." Determination is key. Can you be a stubborn SOB when you need to be? They say that stressful situations are the hardest and the times when you're most likely to pick 'em up again. You've got to brace yourself for that, and maybe have a plan (licorice sticks...yuk!!!). You might consider smacking yourself in the back of the head!  Steve

[dale gleason]

I tried licorice on the handle and couldn't say the results were very good. One idea I did pick up that may be useable to many is using WD-40 to remove sticky substances such as contact glue residue, licorice, glue boards, etc.

A good pair of running shoes almost got tossed, but the tar released from  the soles with just a quick blast of WD. Lizards I've caught inadvertently on glue boards can be easily removed. Try next time you run into this dilemma, you'll like it.
dg
dg

[Howard Rush]

...and any number of primarily aerodynamic factors that influence the quality of our tricks) and now, having pretty much filled the library in those regards...

We'll soon need a bigger library.

[Trostle]

What I find interesting (and amusing) is that some of those top fliers (truly golden arms) who extoll the virtues of holding the handle vertical throughout the flight, don't do it themselves.

Keith

[john e. holliday]

I've noticed that on a few.   As I told my grandson, fly where you are comfortable and then we adjust the handle.   My son was the same,  his neutral was different than mine.  What puzzles me is why when I check neutral on the ground before flying I have to adjust it again after I fly.   Once set no problems with that combination of plane, handle and lines.