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Author Topic: Line length and Prop size  (Read 3741 times)

Offline Roger Altizer

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Line length and Prop size
« on: May 01, 2014, 11:14:50 AM »
Hello everyone.  This is my first ever post, so bear with me if I'm not doing something right.  I am getting back into the sport after a 35 year hiatus.  I recently completed an RSM Humongous with an ST.46 installed.  I am using a 12 X 6 Zinger prop and plan to fly on .018 X 60' lines.  What prop and/or line length would anyone recommend?  Do I need less prop and more line length?  Thanks for any help.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 12:18:53 PM »
You will definitely need more line length.  I would start with 63 ft eyelet to eyelet.  Also I would probably use .015 lines unless the airplane weighs more than 59 oz or so, which it really shouldn't.  If it's over 60 oz then you need the .018 lines.
As for a prop it really depends on a lot of things that are very hard to guess at long distance.
Start with the 12-6 or even an 11.5 X 5 APC (This is where I would start), and when you get the engine running the way you want it to, adjust the prop diameter and pitch to give you lap times in the range of 5.1 to 5.3 seconds.
As for Zinger props...some folks use them with some success I guess...personally I think they are clubs and load an engine too much with very little efficiency.  APC props are available in a much better range of sizes and are much more efficient in aerodynamic design.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2014, 12:34:43 PM »

As for Zinger props...some folks use them with some success I guess...personally I think they are clubs and load an engine too much with very little efficiency. 

Randy Cuberly
Do you have this opinion of the Zinger Pro series ?   They look to be of a little better quality than the standard Zingers.
Allan Perret
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2014, 01:24:39 PM »
Your .018" lines are OK.  There is no good reason to tempt fate with skinney (.015") unless you are in cutthroat stunt competition.

I believe you are under-revving and loading up the engine with a 12x6 prop.  An 11x6 would be better - or maybe even less.

Assuming already have the 18-60's, go ahead and test fly.  Maybe later you can try some longer .015's if to goes too fast & doesn't pull too hard.
Paul Smith

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2014, 06:08:42 PM »
Roger,
One thing that has changed over the last several years is line size is now based on aircraft weight not engine size. So you can use 0.015" on ships 64 oz and less (see the AMA site for details). For the Humongous the ST 46 should work but keep the finish light. Prop for the ST is 11 1/2" x 5. For some reason they really like that prop on 5 to 10% nitro. Line length of 63' and 5.2 sec lap time are where lots of guys fly'em.

Best,       DennisT

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 06:26:37 PM »
Do you have this opinion of the Zinger Pro series ?   They look to be of a little better quality than the standard Zingers.

I Haven't personally used the Pro Series Zingers, but a couple of friends have and their opinion (I think...if I remember right) was they are better but still lacking in efficiency compared to APC's or Carbon.

If someone has a different opinion I personally would like to hear it!  I don't really want to hijack this thread though!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2014, 03:46:02 PM »
Props are something that takes quite a bit of testing to find just what you and your airplane/engine likes. If your Zinger works for you on 60' .018's, I'd guess that with a good prop you'll be using 64'.

OTS airplanes like the Humongous like to motor along fairly quickly, so I'd suggest an 11x5 or 11-6 APC or an 11-6 Graupner. However, Super Tigre .46's vary a lot in power, depending mostly on ring seal, so plan to experiment.
Near as I can tell, APC doesn't make an 11.5 x 5, but I have personally used a 12-5 cut to 11.5" with the tips restored to approximate stock configuration. The material can be cut, scraped, filed and sanded quite nicely.

I flew my Humongous with an OS .46LA, at around 50 oz. They don't like turbulence much, due to the straight wing.
 
 H^^ Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 04:15:50 PM »
Props are something that takes quite a bit of testing to find just what you and your airplane/engine likes. If your Zinger works for you on 60' .018's, I'd guess that with a good prop you'll be using 64'.

OTS airplanes like the Humongous like to motor along fairly quickly, so I'd suggest an 11x5 or 11-6 APC or an 11-6 Graupner. However, Super Tigre .46's vary a lot in power, depending mostly on ring seal, so plan to experiment.
Near as I can tell, APC doesn't make an 11.5 x 5, but I have personally used a 12-5 cut to 11.5" with the tips restored to approximate stock configuration. The material can be cut, scraped, filed and sanded quite nicely.

I flew my Humongous with an OS .46LA, at around 50 oz. They don't like turbulence much, due to the straight wing.
  
 H^^ Steve

Hi Steve,
When I first read your post I was all prepared to prove you wrong about the APC 11.5-5, but I looked at thier latest listing and it's not there.
I promise you they did at one time make such a prop...I have two of them purchased sometime in the early 2000 date range.  The props look exactly like the 11.5-4 but are marked 11.5-5 and measure 5 pitch on my prather pitch gage.  I originally tried these on LA46's but found the 11.5-4 to work better at the time on my Scarinzi Blue Angel (and most other airplanes with the LA46 at least at my altitude in Tucson.
No explanation as to why they aren't listed now...maybe they didn't sell enough of them.  It's also possible that they were a limited run back when Bill Werwedge was trying props for them.

I think it would be worth using a 12-5 cut down as you suggested, at least for a trial!

It's probably possible to repitch a 11.5-4 to at least close to 5 pitch also.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Brian Massey

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2014, 10:00:33 AM »
Never met an APC that made my engine happy. I've had better results, and really like Zoar wood props. Like the Zingers better too. If you do use the APC . . . use some fine sandpaper and take the sharpness off the leading edge. As delivered, they are brutal on your fingers.

However, after being forced to try/experiment with CF props, that's the way to go. But pricey.

Brian
While flying the pattern, my incompetence always exceeds my expectations.

AMA 55421
Madera, CA

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2014, 12:02:03 PM »
i make a carbon bolly copy 12x6 narrow prop that works very good on a ST46 in a humongus or jamason
rad racer

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2014, 01:27:11 PM »
i make a carbon bolly copy 12x6 narrow prop that works very good on a ST46 in a humongus or jamason

And Bob's props are very reasonably priced for CF!

 BIG Bear
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 01:47:11 PM »
Roger ,my 46 liked to run around 8,600 rpm  try tha apc 11/5 or your zinger and trim for that rpm  after getting the feel of the plane then start looking at carbon props
rad racer

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2014, 08:45:22 PM »
Hello everyone.  This is my first ever post, so bear with me if I'm not doing something right.  I am getting back into the sport after a 35 year hiatus.  I recently completed an RSM Humongous with an ST.46 installed.  I am using a 12 X 6 Zinger prop and plan to fly on .018 X 60' lines.  What prop and/or line length would anyone recommend?  Do I need less prop and more line length?  Thanks for any help.
Lemme tell you about Roger, the OP. He showed up in Huntersville this weekend with his Humongous. It's a fine plane and it ain't no cheapo Monokote job either. It's truly beautiful, I hope he'll post a picture. I helped him practice Saturday afternoon with an 11 or 12x6 Zinger I believe. He was running 29% oil fuel and that ST is a sweet running engine, though he was running it pretty fast. I didn't have a watch but I think he was right on 5 seconds.

Roger was vacillating over whether to enter the Beginner contest which I was registered for, and after flying a few semi-patterns with a few OTS moves mixed in, was leaning toward jumping in. He was still trying to memorize the pattern, I bet he laid in bed all night flying it. LL~ He had some, to say the least, unorthodox moves in his maneuvers Saturday, but that is a seriously responsive and quick plane. He was flying with a really wide handle, and we talked about changing it, but a narrower one may not have gotten him out of more than a couple of close encounters. I urged him to use more sky, but the boy is fearless!

Anyway, when I got there this morning I was happy to see Roger's name on the list because we needed someone to fill it out. I didn't want to just win because of no competition. There was one other fellow, young Shawn Hicks. His grandfather is Mike, can't read the last name in the picture of the advanced lineup, was helping him out, but Shawn hasn't quite gotten the routine down yet. I know he'll be competitive very soon though. A seriously interested and impressive 8 year old, friendly as he can be and a sponge for knowledge. So, Roger, Shawn and me get to mix it up.

Shawn flew, and then Roger flew before me and I pitted for him. It wasn't long before I thought, Uh oh. Remember what I said about fearless. The dude memorized the pattern in his sleep, and his capable plane was cooperating. He greased a takeoff that looked like the guys on the paved circles fly and he proceeded to knock down a pattern that was pretty damn respectable considering he learned it in his sleep last night. He was running sub 5 this morning and clipped a few weeds, but hung in there like he had icewater in his veins. He pulled off every maneuver with some of the early beginner tightness but didn't bust any of them too badly. I noticed I'm standing there with my arms folded now... the defensive posture I believe. ;D. When the Super Tigre finally sucked air, he flew it in and greased a 33 point landing. H^^

My turn. At least I have one contest and some practice under my belt and I flew what I thought was a pretty solid pattern, wide pretty loops, nice intersections, good overhead, but jumped my takeoff and bounced my landing. Those two mistakes put him in first place.

Second round, we flew back to back again. I flew a pretty good pattern and Roger flew a pretty good pattern. I finally added a good takeoff and landing to my routine, and it's a damn good thing for me. While I'm standing there gritting my teeth watching him fly his number two, my wife says, "You think he's sandbagging?" No, I said, I think we're looking at a near future expert. The contest had turned into a shootout.

We congratulated each other and after a while I suggested we go look at the scores... the green mile... neither of us was hurrying. We finally got there. Young Shawn our other new friend saw us and came over too, and we all gazed upon the scores together. I was relieved and Roger was the consummate sportsman. Shawn was just his usual happy self, knowing he'll be kicking both of our old asses soon anyway.





You just can't have too much fun!
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2014, 11:37:08 PM »
Lemme tell you about Roger, the OP. He showed up in Huntersville this weekend with his Humongous. It's a fine plane and it ain't no cheapo Monokote job either. It's truly beautiful, I hope he'll post a picture. I helped him practice Saturday afternoon with an 11 or 12x6 Zinger I believe. He was running 29% oil fuel and that ST is a sweet running engine, though he was running it pretty fast. I didn't have a watch but I think he was right on 5 seconds.

Roger was vacillating over whether to enter the Beginner contest which I was registered for, and after flying a few semi-patterns with a few OTS moves mixed in, was leaning toward jumping in. He was still trying to memorize the pattern, I bet he laid in bed all night flying it. LL~ He had some, to say the least, unorthodox moves in his maneuvers Saturday, but that is a seriously responsive and quick plane. He was flying with a really wide handle, and we talked about changing it, but a narrower one may not have gotten him out of more than a couple of close encounters. I urged him to use more sky, but the boy is fearless!

Anyway, when I got there this morning I was happy to see Roger's name on the list because we needed someone to fill it out. I didn't want to just win because of no competition. There was one other fellow, young Shawn Hicks. His grandfather is Mike, can't read the last name in the picture of the advanced lineup, was helping him out, but Shawn hasn't quite gotten the routine down yet. I know he'll be competitive very soon though. A seriously interested and impressive 8 year old, friendly as he can be and a sponge for knowledge. So, Roger, Shawn and me get to mix it up.

Shawn flew, and then Roger flew before me and I pitted for him. It wasn't long before I thought, Uh oh. Remember what I said about fearless. The dude memorized the pattern in his sleep, and his capable plane was cooperating. He greased a takeoff that looked like the guys on the paved circles fly and he proceeded to knock down a pattern that was pretty damn respectable considering he learned it in his sleep last night. He was running sub 5 this morning and clipped a few weeds, but hung in there like he had icewater in his veins. He pulled off every maneuver with some of the early beginner tightness but didn't bust any of them too badly. I noticed I'm standing there with my arms folded now... the defensive posture I believe. ;D. When the Super Tigre finally sucked air, he flew it in and greased a 33 point landing. H^^

My turn. At least I have one contest and some practice under my belt and I flew what I thought was a pretty solid pattern, wide pretty loops, nice intersections, good overhead, but jumped my takeoff and bounced my landing. Those two mistakes put him in first place.

Second round, we flew back to back again. I flew a pretty good pattern and Roger flew a pretty good pattern. I finally added a good takeoff and landing to my routine, and it's a damn good thing for me. While I'm standing there gritting my teeth watching him fly his number two, my wife says, "You think he's sandbagging?" No, I said, I think we're looking at a near future expert. The contest had turned into a shootout.

We congratulated each other and after a while I suggested we go look at the scores... the green mile... neither of us was hurrying. We finally got there. Young Shawn our other new friend saw us and came over too, and we all gazed upon the scores together. I was relieved and Roger was the consummate sportsman. Shawn was just his usual happy self, knowing he'll be kicking both of our old asses soon anyway.





You just can't have too much fun!
Rusty
Warmed my ol' heart reading that.....
Shug
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2014, 12:12:42 AM »
Warmed my ol' heart reading that.....
Shug
Shug, that's how it is at these contests. There's no class envy between the "big guys" and the "little guys," it's just a whole bunch of like minded people and everyone remembers they were a beginner at some time. The ones that have the touch do everything they can to teach and help the rest of us get the touch. All these guys who you read on the forums love to pass it on and have nothing but the well being of the hobby at heart. I've never been involved in any other competitive sport with this mindset. If you haven't been to a contest, you should try it sometime. You'll hook up with people to pit and launch for you that just want to help you shake off the butterflies and do well. It's relaxing and fun, and so unfortunate that it's a dwindling pastime.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2014, 09:08:58 AM »
Thanks for a great story Rusty.    It is great when things work out.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2014, 10:04:01 AM »
You're quite welcome. I think Roger will be okay with me hijacking his thread, I told him I'd write a story. I wish I'd gotten his flights on video. Mine can be seen on the Youtube button to the left under my name and avatar. Selecting a lower resolution makes them less jumpy.(click the little gear thing in the 'Tube screen)
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
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Offline Roger Altizer

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2014, 02:19:47 PM »
Thanks, everyone for all of the helpful advice.  And thank you, Rusty for your encouragement.
Roger

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2014, 08:40:02 PM »
Looking at the group shot, I figured out that Shawn Hicks is the youngster in the middle. Of the other two, which is whom? Please remember to ID as many folks as you can when you post pictures, in case the FDA or NSA is looking for them.  H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Line length and Prop size
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 01:20:31 AM »
That's me on the right and Roger on the left. And Dave Wenzel's back to us in the distance, but I recognize his gray pony tail. Dave's a cool dude too.
Rusty
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 09:08:39 PM by RknRusty »
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com


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