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Author Topic: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not  (Read 4932 times)

Offline Michael Massey

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Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« on: April 04, 2014, 11:50:40 AM »
For a year and a half, I have been trying to figure out why my Shark 45 will not turn insides.  Outsides are fine but the insides are scary.  On inside maneuvers, the plane seems to hesitate or simply not want to turn the corner.  I have tried every trim trick imaginable, without success.  As you can imagine, trying to turn the corner during an inside square, as you heading straight down, and the plane does not want to respond to the control handle is to say the least, unnerving.  (And not desirable.)

So for some history.  After I finished the plane, I took it to the Golden State contest in October of 2012, and flew it in Classic.  It did not want to turn insides.  The greater the speed or wind, the worse it was.   I talked to a number of really good flyers and builders about the problem.  One of the better builders was kind enough to spend some time with me trying to figure out the problem.  We tried a number of things, including, at his suggestion, testing the plane for a flexing pushrod.  He and I pushed, pulled, prodded and otherwise abused the control system and concluded that the problem was not a flexing pushrod.

So over the next year and a half since then, I have continue to fuss with the plane trying to figure it out.  At this point, it was not so much that I had some emotional attachment to the plane but I wanted to understand what was going on.

So fast forward to a Fun Fly in Salem, Oregon a few weeks ago.  I tried another “adjustment” that had no significant effect.  I was talking to another experienced flyer about it and he said, “Maybe the pushrod is flexing.”  I started to say that it could not be the pushrod flexing because I had already looked at that possibility early on.  But the more I thought about it, the more the turning characteristics matched those of a flexing pushrod.  So again, back to pushing, pulling, prodding and otherwise abusing the control system.  I still could not detect any flexing.  But it made so much sense that I decided to “bite the bullet” and hack into the fuse and replace the pushrod.  After all, I tried everything else and I was ready to hang up the plane in utter defeat.

So I replaced the pushrod with a carbon fiber one.  The previous pushrod was a 4-40 threaded pushrod.  The plane is powered by an Evolution 60 and weighs 74 oz.  (It’s been through a “war.”)

That absolutely fixed the problem.  The plane looks like a wreck but now flies quite well. 

I share this story for 2 reasons.  The first is to let you know how very subtle the flexing pushrod problem is.  You cannot necessarily feel the flex in the pushrod under static conditions, even when you “push, pull, prod and otherwise abuse the control system.”  I would say that if your plane exhibits the inside turning problem I described, nothing seems to make it better and you do not have a carbon fiber pushrod, take a good long hard look at the pushrod setup and consider replacing it with carbon fiber.

The second reason for sharing this is that this is my first time using a carbon fiber pushrod and I have heard of some failures with glue joints in a few pushrods.  I assembled mine borrowing from my fishing rod building experience.  Here is how I did mine.  I would like to hear from others on how they do their pushrod assembly.

First, my pushrod inside diameter is slightly larger than the outside diameter of the wire used for the bellcrank or control horn attachment.  See the pictured below.  That was intentional so that I could insure that I was able to get a good amount of JB Weld around the wire when it is inserted into the CF rod.

Next I cut a very narrow width piece of masking tape to wrap around the wire to be inserted.  I will wrap a narrow band of tape at each end of that part of the wire that will be inserted into the carbon fiber rod.  Picture is below.

The next (hopefully these are in the correct order) I show how the tape is being used like a collar to center the wire in the hollow carbon fiber rod.  There is, of course, another band of masking tape at the extreme end of the wire that is already inserted into the carbon fiber rod. 

At first blush, it may appear that the masking tape will not be adequate to support the stress on the wire but in reality, the tape only centers the wire in the carbon fiber rod hole and helps capture the JB Weld.  After the JB Weld cures, of course, the masking tape is no longer a factor, just along for the ride as it were.

I used a small file to rough up the inside of the carbon fiber rod so the JB Weld can get a better grip.  I also used a cutting blade on a Dremel tool to gouge and rough up the wire to be JB Welded in place.  See picture below.

I pushed some JB Weld into the carbon fiber rod then inserted the wire until the first masking tape collar disappeared into the rod.  I then spread JB Weld liberally between the two masking tape collars and pushed the wire further into the carbon fiber rod.  I pushed the wire in until the second tape collar disappeared.  I then tried to squeeze in more JB Weld behind that and to form a small “blob” at the front of the wire where it exits the carbon fiber rod. 

The last picture shows the finished end.  I think with this extra attention to the JB Weld and all of the mating surface preparation, I should not have any of the failures I have heard about.

Again, please share how your carbon fiber rod is constructed and any related stories.

Mike



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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2014, 11:58:49 AM »
it looks ok Mike, however one additional thing you should consider,, wrap the outside of the carbon tube with either serving wire ( like leadout wrapping wire) and epoxy or kevlar thread... the tubes can and will split lenghtwise occasionally and that is a bad thing to have happen,,
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2014, 12:22:28 PM »
I use arrow shafts.  They range from 4mm to 7mm outside diameter (I get 'em cheap).  There's no way one of these is going to bend, although I may start wrapping them with something (thanks Mark -- that's a good tip).

I turn an aluminum end for the shaft, that fits the inside diameter, with a substantial hole in the "inside".  I drill and tap a 4-40 hole in the end.

Then I take the longest 4-40 socket head screw that I can find (currently 1-1/4") that has thread all the way to the head.  I screw that into the cap, putting some epoxy in just before the screw head disappears so that the cap and screw are well glued together.

Then I glue that assembly into the end of the arrow shaft, and I screw a ball joint onto the end.  Note that everything must be clean-clean when bonding aluminum with epoxy.

It hasn't failed me so far, with emphasis on the "so far".  I think my oldest plane only has 200 flights on it.

As a final note -- someone sells these things commercially, in one size to match the size of tube that they also sell.  I cannot, for the life of me, tell you who, because its obviously cheaper to spend an hour making custom-made ends for an almost free carbon fiber tube than it is to buy something for $20 that'll work with 5 minutes of gluing.
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2014, 01:14:49 PM »
I also use CF tubes for pushrods. The size that Mike mentioned.  The wire threaded thingie is a loose fit inside the CF tube.  I haven't tried masking tape, but I simlply put a couple slight bends in the wire and roughed it up with a Dremel wheel.  In both cases, we depend 100% on the strength of JB Weld in shear mode, but it has worked so far (and on some rather large models)

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2014, 01:30:47 PM »
Carbon pushrods with all the fix'ins are sold by Central Hobbies, www.centralhobbies.com

I've used thes pushrods and titanium rod ends for many years and never had a problem.
I think they also offer stainless steel ends if you wish.  Simply clean the rod ends and tubes and epoxy in place with JB Weld, wrap the ends with something like carpet thread (what I use) or kevlar if you must be fancy, and use the things...

Or make them yourself if you wish, and have the time to waste!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2014, 01:49:22 PM »
This is my version of the same idea. Three pieces of brass with an ID that fits onto the 1/16" wire, and an OD that exactly fits the ID of the tube. Roughed up, soldered and JB Welded together. I put a brass collar on the end to help keep the tube from splitting. I would rather have used an aluminum collar, but didn't have any of that size.
Next best thing to Tom Morris' barbed plug made for this purpose.


I tapped the other end of the tube and screwed a JB Weld covered 4-40 rod in to receive a ball link. I don't endorse that trick, but this was for an occasional sport flyer.
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Offline John Rist

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2014, 02:54:23 PM »
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2014, 06:34:44 PM »
it looks ok Mike, however one additional thing you should consider,, wrap the outside of the carbon tube with either serving wire ( like leadout wrapping wire) and epoxy or kevlar thread... the tubes can and will split lenghtwise occasionally and that is a bad thing to have happen,,
Instead of wrapping the ends with thread, I epoxy a 3/4" length of aluminum tubing that fits snug on the outside of the pushrod.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 06:41:52 PM »
Instead of wrapping the ends with thread, I epoxy a 3/4" length of aluminum tubing that fits snug on the outside of the pushrod.

On a profile it would certainly look prettier.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2014, 08:37:12 AM »

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 08:56:41 AM »
Those safety link clevises are a "b&^%*" if you should drop it in the grass while flying.  y1

Don't ask me how I know, LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

I prefer the machined aluminum ones (forgot who makes them) for $5 ea. They are bullet proof.

Floyd, I put a slight bend in a sloppy fitting wire too, works great! Also use an aluminum collar on the end of the PR.

Tight lines, Jerry


PS: PR= push rod.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 09:20:50 AM »
I suppose binding the end of the CF tube would keep it from splitting.  I insert the wire about 1 1/2" into the tube, saturated with JB Weld.  The stress is distributed over a long path, so I don't see any stress on the very end that would cause splitting.

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Offline Michael Massey

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 10:57:19 AM »
Thanks every one for the feedback.  Mark, I will definitely wrap the ends as you suggested.  This has been very informative for me.

Mike
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 12:24:16 PM »
Guys,
A good source for the thin 5/16" carbon fiber shaft rods is at an archery range or bow store. They have discarded competition arrows that you can get for free or very low costs.

Best,      DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2014, 06:30:27 PM »
Mike,
What was the original pushrod made from?

Best,     DennisT

Offline Michael Massey

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2014, 01:44:49 PM »
Dennis,

The original pushrod was a 4-40 threaded pushrod.  To compound that issue, I was probably not very judicious in confining the pushrod in the fuse formers. 

The carbon fiber rod is .210 OD and .132 ID.  Seems stiff as a board as it were.

Mike
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2014, 03:02:36 PM »
Threaded push rod material is very soft...but you probably know that, not suitable for C/L pushrod use in heavy airplanes.  As far as the 4-40 rod ends, the ones sold by central hobbies are the best. If you go with producing your own with 4-40 bolts, use stainless steel bolts/screws. I lost an airplane when a standard 4/40 cracked and broke off. It can happen.

Another thing I do is carefully drill a 1/16" hole about 1/4" below the end of the CF Rod. When the rod end is secured with JB weld a bit will squirt through it and dry, leaving a sprue that locks the bold/rod end in place. That in turn is covered up by either wrapping with thread or using a piece of aluminum rod slipped over the pushrod. 8)
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2014, 04:40:44 PM »
Threaded push rod material is very soft...but you probably know that, not suitable for C/L pushrod use in heavy airplanes.  As far as the 4-40 rod ends, the ones sold by central hobbies are the best. If you go with producing your own with 4-40 bolts, use stainless steel bolts/screws. I lost an airplane when a standard 4/40 cracked and broke off. It can happen.

Another thing I do is carefully drill a 1/16" hole about 1/4" below the end of the CF Rod. When the rod end is secured with JB weld a bit will squirt through it and dry, leaving a sprue that locks the bold/rod end in place. That in turn is covered up by either wrapping with thread or using a piece of aluminum rod slipped over the pushrod. 8)

Well the stainless screws do resist corrosion and are strong enough but bear in mind that standard grade 8 socket head cap screws are about 15% higher in tinsile strength than Stainless ones!

If corrosion resistance is a concern as in wet areas then use the stainless.

I totally agree with the note about Central Hobbies rod ends being the best.  However I did see a failure with one of the titanium ones caused (according to the metals lab at Raytheon) by intergranular stress corrosion.   Titanium is sometimes subject to this, but not normally in this kind of application, where there was no continuous stress.  The rod end was about 12 years old...I have them in other planes and have had no problem.  The failure occurred last year at VSC in my Road Runner...flap horn to bellcrank, at the flap horn.  The electron micrograph showed some indication of a crack at the beginning of the thread most likely caused in the machining process.  This could have left residual stress in the material that likely resulted in the failure.

This is just presented here for information and should not be cause for alarm unless more failures like this are noted!

I have examined 9 other pieces that I have and found nothing of note!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2014, 05:58:52 PM »
The one I had break may have been a standard hardware grade screw with the head ground off - not a socket head cap screw and never again.  8) 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 08:58:35 PM by Balsa Butcher »
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2014, 09:10:20 PM »
Which Central Hobby adjustable rod end is the one you like? There's an aluminum ball joint that's 3mm and a 4-40 steel clevis or is it something different?


Thanks,
MM

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2014, 12:37:13 AM »
Which Central Hobby adjustable rod end is the one you like? There's an aluminum ball joint that's 3mm and a 4-40 steel clevis or is it something different?


Thanks,
MM

There are rod ends with left and right threads.  If you use one on one end and the other on the other end of the Flap to Elevator rod then you can adjust the elevator flap zero by just turning the rod (after loosening the lock nut of course).  I use a heavy duty ball joint on the Flap end and an aluminum Clevis with a hardened removable pin on the other end.  The clevises are available from Steve Moon and his buddies in Texas.  Sorry but the name of the company evades my OLD FAULTY memory right at the moment...sombody will help me out and tell you who they are.
Here's a picture of one below.
It's hooked to a Tom Morris adjustable control horn!

Randy Cuberly

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Offline Motorman

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2014, 08:26:41 AM »
I've been having good luck on my profiles with 3/32" music wire push rod and a fair lead. Soldered on split pin for adjustment.

MM

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2014, 04:49:59 AM »
Out of curiosity, are you using the stock landing gear or did you make longer once to accommodate a bigger diameter prop?

Offline Michael Massey

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 12:13:38 AM »
Sean,

I am guessing your asking about the Shark 45 landing gear because I am running a 60 size engine.  In any event, I scratch build all of my planes so merely make the landing gear the size that I want for my application.  In this case the landing gear is longer than the plans call for because I am running a 13" prop.

Hope that helps.

I see you are overseas, keep your head down and pass on to all the guys how much the service you all provide is sincerely appreciated. (A very old vet myself.)

Mike
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2014, 01:49:10 AM »
  Hi Mike;
     Sean is asking the question because I have built two Shark 45s that both turned better outside that inside. I have been reading this thread with great interest. I built my first one back in 1994. A copy of the Jetco kit. Powered by a ST.51. I made the landing gear about 3/4" longer that stock so I could run up to a 13" prop if necessary. The airplane turned great outside, but was a bit sluggish inside. I built a carbon copy of the airplane in 2005 for VSC that year, primarily because I was short on building time and couldn't decide what to build. I decided to clone my first Shark because I knew it so well, and would try to make the new one lighter. When ever you plan to take a new airplane to a big contest, you never get it done in time to really  trim it out, do we??? n1 I knew that was the way thing would work out, and I figured if I built the new airplane exactly like the first one, same engine (previously used and broken in) with the same set up, I would be in pretty good shape when getting to Tuscon. Well, my plan worked well. I fueled it up on the grass circles, Bob McDonald gave me a launch, checked for wings level up right and inverted, and gave me a thumbs up, so I went right into the pattern. The airplane flew EXACTLY like the first one! turned the same inside like the first one. I had tried all sorts of stuff over the ensuing years to see what I could do for it, but just figured it was a design thing, since I had two models that flew exactly the same. The stab does sit kind of high in the design., and I thought that might be part of the equation.  A couple of years ago I got to thinking about it again, and wondered how all that extra weight from the longer gear was affecting things and decided to experiment with standard length gear, and experiment with three blade and a shorter two blade props. I made a set of standard length gear, and cut the extra length off the original gear and weighed it, and it came to about 1 1/2 ounces! and that was just the music wire. The wheel were now 3/4" closer to the center line of the airplane also. Less pendulum affect I think. Well, this did help the inside turn a lot! But after reading this thread, I'm going to get the #2 airplane down and check out the push rod just out of curiosity. I used Dave Brown push rods in both as described in another post, so I don't think that was part of the problem, but worth looking into. My solution did help the situation, but the airplane still does turn slower inside that out side, so I'm going to do some check first chance I get! Thanks for sharing the experience. I think I have one more Shark in me, and also have the kit of Whitely's Hawker Hunter which is basically a Shark .45, so I will keep this all in mind!
   Type at you later,
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Offline Michael Massey

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2014, 12:01:42 PM »
Hi Dan,

I don't know if this will help but let me say a little more about the turns.

Where I was having my problem was on sharp (90 degree corners) turns inside.  Again outsides were fine.  It was more than a difference in the turn feel.  When I "hit" the corner on insides, the plane seemed to hesitate as though it was not going to turn.  I am sure he hesitation was very momentary, but when that happened, my reaction was to "yank" because it was not turning.  I am also sure that if I did not "yank" to get the turn, it probably would have turned but later than I wanted or needed.  This problem was exacerbated by more plane speed and/or more wind.

Now that problem is fixed, I cannot say for sure that the plane turns equally well inside and outside.  But the "hesitation" is gone.  I would go fly it again and give you more feed back but after the success of the carbon fiber push rod, I pulled the plane off line to "clean up" all of the surgery aftermath.

Keep me posted.  I am interested in the results of your landing gear length experiments.  It will be harder to isolate the flying changes to only landing gear length unless you can some how eliminate the changes brought about by different props etc.  Good Luck.

Mike
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Does Your Plane Turn Insides, or Not
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2014, 07:23:22 AM »
This is where a good log book comes in handy.  I am not that worried about planes that I keep one.  But, I've seen Jim Lee with his log book.   An entry is made each time he makes a change of any kind on a plane.  Another is to make more than one flight after a change unless the change really made things worse.  I too have  a plane the does not want to turn either direction on the first sharp turn but the rest of the turns are okay.  Yes the control system has been checked on them.   I guess I fly too fast.
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