Latest Headline, "Malasian Airliner carrying lithium ion batteries"

[Greg McCoy]

I know this isn't control line, but batteries, and battery safety have been discussed here.

Quote headline

"Missing jet WAS carrying highly flammable lithium batteries: CEO of Malaysian Airlines finally admits to dangerous cargo four days after DENYING it

    When asked days ago, he said it was carrying 'tonnes of mangosteens'
    Lithium-ion batteries have caused 140 mid-air incidents in last 20 years"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586308/Missing-jet-WAS-carrying-highly-flammable-lithium-batteries-CEO-Malaysian-Airlines-finally-admits-dangerous-cargo.html

What do you think?

[Tim Wescott]

Well, that doesn't mean that was the cause of the problem.

[55chevr]

Perhaps the Lipo-s were leaking and caused an electro magnetic field that upset the navigation, radio and transponder systems.  It could happen?

[Steve Helmick]

Headline says "lithium ion" batteries. I know LiPos are different, as are LiFe batteries. Tim, could you inform us about all the different types of Lithium based batteries and their good/bad points? I are confoosed.

I was wondering if these were a misspelling of Lithium Iron, for instance. Also, it doesn't make much sense to ship any lithium based batteries from Malaysia to China...seems like they'd be going the other direction.  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

Headline says "lithium ion" batteries. I know LiPos are different, as are LiFe batteries. Tim, could you inform us about all the different types of Lithium based batteries and their good/bad points? I are confoosed.

I was wondering if these were a misspelling of Lithium Iron, for instance. Also, it doesn't make much sense to ship any lithium based batteries from Malaysia to China...seems like they'd be going the other direction.  Steve

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries

According to these people, the names "Lithium Ion" and "Lithium Polymer" more or less cover the same territory.  Basically, if it's lithium and rechargeable, then it's got polymer in there making it work, and the way it's working is by shoving ions around.  Some people make distinctions about the names, but there's no real "official" difference.

There's a whole bunch of materials that can be used for the cathode -- if it's iron phosphate, then you have a LiFe (Li-FeP0₄ if you want to be nerdy about it).  The article I point to lists four.  Add to that the fact that there's a whole lot of different ways to mix the electrolyte (all involving flammable organic solvents), build the cells, construct the electrodes, etc., and it gets really hard to make generalizations other than "sometimes they burst into flame".

Li-Fe cells are less prone to bursting into flame than Li-other stuff cells.  But that's 'less', not 'not'.

[John Stiles]

I don't see the batteries as being the problem. I don't think it was intended to crash, and doubt it was an accidental event....I'm more about thinking it was an attempt to steal the plane, but it went bad because the pilot got "lost" and ran outta fuel.

[Eric Viglione]

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries

According to these people, the names "Lithium Ion" and "Lithium Polymer" more or less cover the same territory.  Basically, if it's lithium and rechargeable, then it's got polymer in there making it work, and the way it's working is by shoving ions around.  Some people make distinctions about the names, but there's no real "official" difference.

There's a whole bunch of materials that can be used for the cathode -- if it's iron phosphate, then you have a LiFe (Li-FeP0₄ if you want to be nerdy about it).  The article I point to lists four.  Add to that the fact that there's a whole lot of different ways to mix the electrolyte (all involving flammable organic solvents), build the cells, construct the electrodes, etc., and it gets really hard to make generalizations other than "sometimes they burst into flame".

Li-Fe cells are less prone to bursting into flame than Li-other stuff cells.  But that's 'less', not 'not'.

Tim - Stealing from the same site you quoted, I like this page better...


http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/the_li_polymer_battery_substance_or_hype

...because it gives more of a practical explanation of the tangible differences while it goes on to debunk the use of a "true" poly battery, because being a lump of solid plastic, and not being attainable without heating to get it going. I think from a practical rule of thumb (but not 100% of the time) you could generalize that eyeballing two batteries, one in a foil bag and one in a hard shell, that *most* of the time, the one in the hard shell will be the ion, and the baggie will be the poly one. I know that statement lacks a lot for accuracy, but assuming the two batteries lack labels, taking a battery apart and analyzing it's chemistry isn't much of an option either.

EricV

[Doug Moon]

For us the difference in the types is the v per cell.
My charger shows the following. The setting is critical for charging.

Lithium Ion or LiIo = 3.6 v per cell
LiFe = 3.3 v per cell
LiPo = 3.7 v per cell

[Steve Fitton]

The batteries had nothing to do with this accident.  Everybody knows that SPECTRE is behind it.  The plane is intact on the seafloor under a camouflage net, right next to a rusty Avro Vulcan.

[Steve Helmick]

Why not an "Alien Abduction" theory, while we're at it? CIA plot to get free batteries for their snooping devices? Was there anybody important on board? Important enough to warrant a "hit" by the NSA or ATF?    Steve

[Brett Buck]

Why not an "Alien Abduction" theory, while we're at it? CIA plot to get free batteries for their snooping devices? Was there anybody important on board? Important enough to warrant a "hit" by the NSA or ATF?    Steve

   I am not saying it was aliens, but ... It was aliens.

    Brett

[Leester]

I've always thought it was " Dr. EVIL" He does have a submarine to retrieve the jet Liner    Where's Austin Powers  

[Dennis Toth]

In recent reports they indicated that the Li batteries were cargo not connected to anythin and packed according to regulations. Li batteries just sitting there have not had problems. If they were bouncing around, charging or discharging at a higher then rated amount is where the problems have occurred.

Best,        DennisT

[Tim Wescott]

Eric:  I like your link better than mine.

Steve:  I'm sure the OWCA is on the case.  Where's Perry?

[Larry Renger]

Now if only the flight crew were wearing their Aluminum foil helmets, all would have been well.   

[Bill Morell]

I think that  there are likely 239 people who wouldn't share in your humor.

[Paul Smith]

The 239 passengers might be laughing if they're enjoying eternal life in Shangra-La instead of sweating it out in Malaysia or Red China.

Who said the far east was safe?

[Larry Fernandez]

Obama will be holding a press conference tomorrow afternoon, claiming that this incident was Bush's fault. 

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Paul Smith]

Actually it was clearly Ricard Nixon's fault.  Without his opening of trade with Red China, there would have not been a Boeing airplane flying into Peking, or Chinese products overwhelming our economy.

[Don Curry AMA 267060]

I think Bill Clinton, Monica and Jenifer flowers are involved somehow
Don

[Bill Morell]

It would be interesting to see if you funny guys had family on there how many jokes you would be making.

[RandySmith]

   I am not saying it was aliens, but ... It was aliens.

    Brett

Brett needs to pack up one of his tinfoil  hats  and send to this guy  :-)     

Randy

[Paul Smith]

It would be interesting to see if you funny guys had family on there how many jokes you would be making.

Malaysia to Peking?  Not my family.  Maybe Obama's.

[Bill Morell]

Malaysia to Peking?  Not my family.  Maybe Obama's.

Probably not but there were 4 Americans on board. Too bad they weren't related to you. See how funny that would have been.

[Russell Bond]

I agree with Bill!!

Lay off these childish jokes, it would be different if some of your family was on board!!!!