FBW, "Fly-By-Wire" Scale applications?

[Avaiojet]

Kim,

You've done an excellent job with your efforts for FBW. Kudos!

I know your interest is or has been for stunt, so it appears, and that's good, great in fact.

I don't want to stray away from that purpose or use, but, and this is why I started another Thread, with a bit of thought, where

do you see your concept/equipment being used with applications for scale?

I hope you don't mind my curiosity or mind the question.

Thanks in advance.

Charles

[Kim Doherty]

Thanks Charles,

Sorry, I do not see much of an application in Scale. I am only wiggling the bell crank with the lines so strictly a binary control system. We do not drop bombs in stunt (other than in this forum) and no one fly's scale anymore.

Kim.

[pmackenzie]

It could help out with scale models that due to their unusual configuration don't have simple means of running pushrods.
For example:

[Avaiojet]

Thanks Charles,

Sorry, I do not see much of an application in Scale. I am only wiggling the bell crank with the lines so strictly a binary control system. We do not drop bombs in stunt (other than in this forum) and no one fly's scale anymore.

Kim.

Kim,

Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking more along the lines of percentages, like with extreme lowered flaps and attitude corrected with down elevator, two servos in the mix. This feature would be the third line and half a bellcrank brought back to center, possibly with a spring, without idling down the engine. Idle could be Clancy's gismo or something similar on a button, not a slide leaver.

Possible or am I not understanding your applications.

Hey! Scale is on it's way back, I hope.  

You have absolutely no interest in scale, correct?

Charles

[Kim Doherty]

Charles,

In our system when the bell crank moves ALL surfaces move together. You could not have the flaps stay at say 30 degrees while the elevator moved up and down.

In order to activate a single option yes you would need a third line to act as a switch. The value of the switch could be changed each time you engaged it. Throttle positions would need to be pre-set to coincide with the type of manoeuvre being flown. Good luck in developing your system.

Kim.

[Avaiojet]

Charles,

In our system when the bell crank moves ALL surfaces move together. You could not have the flaps stay at say 30 degrees while the elevator moved up and down.

Kim,

That's not my intention

In order to activate a single option yes you would need a third line to act as a switch. The value of the switch could be changed each time you engaged it. Throttle positions would need to be pre-set to coincide with the type of manoeuvre being flown. Good luck in developing your system.

Kim.

Kim,

Let me see if I have this right.

Your bellcrank as it rotates, will send a message to the servo. The more the bellcrank is rotated, the greater the movement on the servo arm also.

The bellcrank could send a message to any number of servos at the same time, correct?

Charles

[Kim Doherty]

Charles,

No, when the bell crank moves our system sends a signal to a processor which interprets it and determines the type and nature of output to make. It is then sent to the servos to carry out the command. We are currently limited in the number of servos we can drive at one time.

It has taken us four years to get to this point. We are not even close to having a fully debugged system or to a point where we would feel comfortable providing systems for others to use. We will not be developing this with a view towards scale model use. If in the end the completed system is of use to scale modelers and if we are selling systems (at this point very unlikely) then you could purchase one and adapt it to your needs.

As I said in my previous post, I wish you luck and offer encouragement to you to develop your own system dedicated to scale modelling.

Kim.

[Clancy Arnold]

Kim
From what little I read here you are trying to do what my Single Channel U/Tronics Control unit does.  I would recommend connecting it per the instructions packed with the E-NC Special units.  I have been selling them since 2005.
Clancy

[pmackenzie]

The fly-by wire system is quite different from your U/Tronics.

As I understand it you are sending the PPM signal down the wires, then decoding it in the plane to control throttle, retracts,landing flaps , etc.

The FBW system replaces the traditional bellcrank-to-control surface mechanical connections with an electronic system.

There is a sensor to measure the bellcrank position. This is used to generate servo signals to drive the primary flight surfaces (elevator and flaps), and possibly rudder as well.
The onboard system lets you make adjustments to things like throws, exponential, flap to elevator rations, etc.

No reason you could not use U/tronics along with FBW, provided you switch to an insulated bellcrank.

Pat MacKenzie

[Fred Cronenwett]

The Carrier folks were doing something similar with 3-line. They had a pushrod come from 3-line throttle bellcrank and move a slide pot that was hooked to a single channel system that ultimately controlled an ESC for electric power. The entire electronic control system (slide pot, battery and single channel board) was in the model. Now the carrier folks just use 2.4 Ghz to control the throttle and have a standard 2-line bellcrank to control the elevator with a mechanical pushrod.

At the Nats this year there was all types of control systems being flown, 3-line, down the wire electronic controls like Clancy's, JR radio DSC controls (down the wire) and 2.4 Ghz. I don't know if anyone was flying with the single channel system which is also down the wire.

CL scale requires that the elevator be controlled by a standard bellcrank with a mechanical pushrod.

CL scale also requires the options such as retracts, flaps, bomb drop, throttle and other items to be independent of each other. This is why the electronic control systems like Clancy's, JR Radio DSC controls and 2.4 Ghz are popular because they can easily control multiple independent features with multiple servos.

Fred Cronenwett

[John Rist]

CL scale requires that the elevator be controlled by a standard bellcrank with a mechanical pushrod.



Fred Cronenwett

Not true.  The requirement is that the up/down control of the aircraft be provided by the control lines. I have a Sato 1.2 4c powered scale ship that weighs 10 lb.  The control lines drives a bell crank that drives a pot in a servo driver that drives two large servos for elevator control.  It allows good control even when line tension is low.  However I can see a use for computer control in scale.  Smooth flight with a heavy wing loading on a windy day is hard to achieve.

[Fred Cronenwett]

The Scale rules state in Paragraph 1.1,

for Radio signals allows for 2.4 Ghz then says:

"elevation must always be controlled by way of one or more control lines which manipulate the model's control surfaces during flight by traditional mechanical means, as mandated in the CL general rules"

I guess like all rules they can viewed differently

Fred

[pmackenzie]

They refer you back to the CL general rules, in which the only reference I can find is this:

Manipulation of control surfaces, and any other of the model’s operational features, may be accomplished by mechanical means, by electrical impulses transmitted through the line(s), or by any other control system that does not interfere with the control of any other model or present a safety hazard to competitors or spectators. The use of radio control to accomplish any control functions on Control Line models is specifically prohibited.

They do seem to be a bit in contradiction. The general rules allow for almost any non-radio system.

[Clancy Arnold]

Pat MacKenzie
The rules you quoted are correct for the 2011 - 2012 rules but the 2013 - 2014 rules were changed to allow 2.4 GHz radio control of functions not associated with controlling the flight in elevation.

Control Line General 2013 - 2014 rules page CLG-2 2. General. "A Control Line model is flown on one or more' steel or GSUMP, commonly referred to as Spectra or Dyneema, lines' steel wire line(s) or metal line(s) of equivalent strength, attached to the model in a manner providing aerodynamic control of the model's elevation through manipulation of the control surfaces during flight."  

page CLG-3 "The use of radio control to accomplish any control functions on Control Line models is specifically prohibited except as follows.  The use of 2.4 GHz (utilizing spread spectrum, 47 CFR Part 15) radio control to accomplish functions other than providing aerodynamic control of the model's elevation on control line models is allowed, but only to the extent and in the manner specifically allowed by the rules of the individual event. All control functions must be under the direct control of the pilot and only the pilot."

Control Line & Radio Control Fixed Wing Scale 2013 - 2014 rules page SC-3 under CONTROL LINE SPORT SCALE for event 509.  1. General:
1.1 Use of Radio Signals.  The use of 2.4 ghz radio control signals shall be allowed for controlling auxiliary mechanical operations, including but not limited to throttle, flaps, retracts, landing gear doors, droppable stores (bombs, torpedoes, fuel tanks, parachutes, etc.)  Radio control cannot be used to provide aerodynamic control of the model's elevation.  Elevation must always be controlled by way of one or more control lines which manipulate the model's control surfaces during flight by traditional mechanical means, as mandated in the CL General Rules.

I see no contradiction!

Clancy

[pmackenzie]

That does seem clearer regarding auxiliary functions.

However the scale specific rule says "traditional mechanical means, as mandated in the CL general rules".

But there is no mention in the general rules about traditional mechanical means. And no definition anywhere of what those "traditional means" are.

So still some possible contradiction/room for interpretation.

[Paul Smith]

The fly-by wire system is quite different from your U/Tronics.

As I understand it you are sending the PPM signal down the wires, then decoding it in the plane to control throttle, retracts,landing flaps , etc.

The FBW system replaces the traditional bellcrank-to-control surface mechanical connections with an electronic system.

There is a sensor to measure the bellcrank position. This is used to generate servo signals to drive the primary flight surfaces (elevator and flaps), and possibly rudder as well.
The onboard system lets you make adjustments to things like throws, exponential, flap to elevator rations, etc.

No reason you could not use U/tronics along with FBW, provided you switch to an insulated bellcrank.

Pat MacKenzie

No reason TO use U-tronics when you can buy and use an off-the-shelf 2.4 RC system.

[pmackenzie]

No reason TO use U-tronics when you can buy and use an off-the-shelf 2.4 RC system.

More than one way to skin a cat.
It is a complete system from a single source, with a proven track record.
 
One that you don't have to seek outside help in figuring out what and where to buy (if you know what I mean Paul, and I think you do  )

Pat MacKenzie

[Jim Fruit]

No reason TO use U-tronics when you can buy and use an off-the-shelf 2.4 RC system.

Other than it is a high quality system with local service if needed. Some of the Chinese 2.4 systems "not so bueno". At the last contest I was at, a couple of the guys were using 2.4 systems. It looked like they had a kitchen table hanging around their necks and it was obvious that not all of the kinks were worked out yet. I am sticking with the U-Tronics system.

Jim Fruit

[Fred Cronenwett]

I have flown with 3-line, 2.4 ghz, JR DSC, Single channel, Bill Young Handles, Z-tron and other converted radios and have always maintained each pilot needs to use what they are comfortable with. Some like the transmitter on the Hip, some like the transmitter hanging off their neck, other like the electronics incorporated into the handle. Everybody will prefer one of the systems and dislike the other systems. We need to respect the fact that each pilot will use what they are comfortable with.

Even though 2.4 Ghz is now legal we will continue to have 3-line systems and everything else at contests. Bottom line, if the equipment is maintained and operated correctly there will be no problems. Before any flying day or contest I do what I call a system check. I turn on all of the systems and make sure everything is working. Then I take that equipment out to the field with confidence that it will work.

Before any contest I go flying at the local field and run thru one entire flight just to make sure everything will work when I get to the contest.

Fred Cronenwett

[Avaiojet]

I have a Sato 1.2 4c powered scale ship that weighs 10 lb.

John,

What model would that be? Info?

Charles

[Clancy Arnold]

Charles
I would guess John is referring to his Jenny which he flew at the NATS 2 or 3 years ago.  At that time his system was legal but when the rules were changed to allow 2.4 GHz the rules were also changed to prevent electronic control of the elevator so that we did not end up flying tethered RC.  This rule is easy to test for, just turn the electronics off in the model and then see if the elevator follows the leadouts.
Clancy

[Avaiojet]

Charles
I would guess John is referring to his Jenny which he flew at the NATS 2 or 3 years ago.  At that time his system was legal but when the rules were changed to allow 2.4 GHz the rules were also changed to prevent electronic control of the elevator so that we did not end up flying tethered RC.  This rule is easy to test for, just turn the electronics off in the model and then see if the elevator follows the leadouts.
Clancy

Clancy,

I'd like to get a list together. You know, names of modelers who do scale.

"No one flies scale anymore."

This I don't understand?

Charles

[John Rist]

John,

What model would that be? Info?



Charles

It is a converted RC Great Plains kit an Extra 300S.  Thus the reason for the servo controlled elevator.  I had not realized that the scale powers to be had slipped in a rules change that killed most of my scale ships.  OOOO-Welllll.

[john e. holliday]

To the person that says no one flies scale any more has not been around the contest circuit, let along the NATS.   I know a lot of guys that build and fly scale airplanes, but do not like to compete outside of the flying area/city.   I have scale planes in the shop, well sort of scale.   Go to the AMA site and read the NATS News about the scale competition.   

[Avaiojet]

John,

WOW!  Fine looking model.

I'm overwelmed from just looking. 

OK, you have more gear in that model than I could ever imagine.

Could you explain in detail?

I'm looking for scale model builders.

I'm putting a roster together. So, scale model builders please PM me and I'll add you to the roster.

Charles

To the person that says no one flies scale any more has not been around the contest circuit, let along the NATS.   I know a lot of guys that build and fly scale airplanes, but do not like to compete outside of the flying area/city.   I have scale planes in the shop, well sort of scale.   Go to the AMA site and read the NATS News about the scale competition.   

John,

Didn't know you did scale? Even sorta. That's great! Wanna be on a scale modeler list?

Resources, friendship, ideas, exchange things, stuff like that.  Might be useful.

Charles

[john e. holliday]

NO,  I am doing good to keep up with the forums lately.

[Will Hinton]

There were 43 planes entered in c/l scale at the nats this year.  Check the numbers at the AZ fellows' SCALE contest, and St. Louis, and then tell me no one flies scale any more.  (The FCM last year had 32 airplanes.)

[Clancy Arnold]

Sunday of Labor Day weekend I flew at the Tree Town Modelers CL Contest in Aurora, IL.  A great flying site with about 15 CL Scale models entered. I finished in third place with my 1914 Jeannin Stahltaube behind Charlie Bauer and Jim Fruit.
There were 5 entries in Sport Scale and 4 in Profile Scale.   I did not get a count of the 1/2 A entries.  Besides Scale they had Stunt, Navy Carrier, Speed, Racing and other events that I missed seeing.

For size reference the Taube has 5 inch wheels.  Jim Friut is in the circle with me as my caller.  Photo by Pat Arnold, my wife.
Clancy

[John Rist]

There were 43 planes entered in c/l scale at the nats this year.  Check the numbers at the AZ fellows' SCALE contest, and St. Louis, and then tell me no one flies scale any more.  (The FCM last year had 32 airplanes.)

But this year FCM had 2 pilots and 5 airplanes.