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Author Topic: Design Parameters III  (Read 6633 times)

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Design Parameters III
« on: January 11, 2013, 03:26:30 PM »
I was sorry to see Mike Griffin delete his original post asking about design parameters; it's a subject that's been "near and dear" for many years.

I freely confess to reading - and saving - George Aldrich's centuries old article, "How to Design a Stunt Model".  As a high school student at the time - one who took 9th grade shop as an extra subject just in order to learn drafting - I had already designed several smaller models of my own, and was disappointed that George's approach specified inches and was geared specifically to the design of a .35-powered airplane.

So I set about creating my own parameters: First, determining the wing area desired, then the aspect ratio, which dictates wingspan.  Then I used a percentage of the wingspan for nose moment and tail moment, as measured from the high point of the wing.  Just for fun, I made a chart of the numbers (as above) for many of the popular designs and popular kits.

I found this approach to work just as well for designing a .15-powered airplane as it does for a larger one (which was my desired goal).

With all due respect to the engineering purists - I spent the first 2+ years of college as an aero engineering major myself - I think much more than that is overkill.  After all, we have our own individual preferences.  I personally liked my combat models much more nose heavy than most of my peers, and I flew a lot of combat.

I asked a question in the forums a couple of years ago out of curiosity as to how others approached the design of a new airplane and liked the answers Keith Trostle and others offered, which - paraphrased - were something like, "If it looks right, it will probably fly right".

Dennis
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 03:41:59 PM »
My rule of thumb is that if it looks good on paper, it will look good when built. However, if it doesn't look good on paper, it may or may not look good when built, which seems wrong, somehow... n~

The important part is that if it is light and straight and has plenty of power and is well trimmed, it will fly well. Most of my original designs were F1As, and the powerplant wasn't nearly good enough. :P Steve
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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 03:54:30 PM »
I am glad you started it again Dennis.

Mike

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2013, 04:05:37 PM »
So I set about creating my own parameters: First, determining the wing area desired, then the aspect ratio, which dictates wingspan.  Then I used a percentage of the wingspan for nose moment and tail moment, as measured from the high point of the wing.  Just for fun, I made a chart of the numbers (as above) for many of the popular designs and popular kits.

Nit picking: only stunt people say "moment" when they're talking about a length.  In physics and mechanical engineering, it's "moment arm"; a "moment" is either a short period of time or a torque, but is not itself the arm along which a pair of forces is turned into a moment.

Observation: This is kind of what I was saying in my deleted post about copying a design: know what to copy and how, and you can at least have a good starting point for a new model.  The high point of the wing isn't really the right place: the wing's mean aerodynamic chord is.  But chordwise, the high point of the wing is pretty darned close to the MAC so it's not at all a bad approximation to use the wing highpoint instead.

I honestly think that if you knew the important aspects to pick off of a design, and you knew how changes (such as changing the aspect ratio, or moving the tail back) would affect the airplane's performance, you could go a long way to building credible, if not world-beating, airplanes.
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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2013, 04:05:48 PM »
Just a comment (and fun memory) …

Back in our high school days, good friend and flying buddy Tom - who went on to get his Master’s in Aero Engineering, and just retired from a long career at Northrup Grumman, where he worked on cutting edge designs - had a Consolidated Wowee with a very weak Cub .049 engine.  Did I mention that Tom’s airplanes tended to be heavy?

We flew it several times on the blacktop playground of the elementary school we had attended.  Only, “flew” is a misnomer - the only time the craft was ever much higher above the ground than was necessary for prop clearance was when it was launched from about waist high.

We jokingly referred to it as “Tom’s ground effect machine”.

Now, who can offer up the formula that explains this fun?

Dennis
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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 04:07:18 PM »
Maybe this will benefit everyone.  Click on the link.

Mike
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VP9UDuUCY5YJ:www.control-line.org/admin/Portal/LinkClick.aspx%3Ftabid%3D22%26table%3Ddnn_CsDocument%26field%3DItemID%26id%3D131%26link%3DNetzeband_Stunt_Design_Summary.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

or Google these words:
A SUMMARY OF AERODYNAMIC AND GEOMETRIC DATA
FOR 101 C/L PRECISION AEROBATIC OR STUNT DESIGNS,
ACTIVE BETWEEN 1946 AND 1996.
Prepared by WildBill Netzeband

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 04:23:56 PM »
Maybe this will benefit everyone.  Click on the link.

Very interesting.  I saved that, now I need to actually read it.
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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 04:44:20 PM »
Nit picking: only stunt people say "moment" when they're talking about a length.  In physics and mechanical engineering, it's "moment arm"; a "moment" is either a short period of time or a torque, but is not itself the arm along which a pair of forces is turned into a moment.

Observation: This is kind of what I was saying in my deleted post about copying a design: know what to copy and how, and you can at least have a good starting point for a new model.  The high point of the wing isn't really the right place: the wing's mean aerodynamic chord is.  But chordwise, the high point of the wing is pretty darned close to the MAC so it's not at all a bad approximation to use the wing highpoint instead.

I honestly think that if you knew the important aspects to pick off of a design, and you knew how changes (such as changing the aspect ratio, or moving the tail back) would affect the airplane's performance, you could go a long way to building credible, if not world-beating, airplanes.

Tim, I quite agree and simply missed "arm" - I've always used the "correct" term in my notes.  But I think you miss a couple of points.

I'm not much interested in copying the "numbers" from, say for example, an Impact, to build a .25-powered profile.  The approach has worked really well over the years - for me.  Your own mileage may vary ...

Second, for all but the very highest levels of competition - and I'll stick my neck out here - my money is with the guy that practices and practices and practices over the guy who simply shows up with a "world-beating airplane".

Back in my high school days again - when building was really my least favorite part of the hobby - I won a combat match on an extremely windy day with a Ringmaster powered by a Fox .35 Stunt engine and with only the inboard wing.  Good friend Jack, in either admiration and/or shock, exclaimed, "Leonhardi, I swear you could fly a brick!"

It was a slight exaggeration, of course, but I seriously doubt there are many here who are out flying as much as some of us were back then.

I have designed over the years, going back to the '60s, several well-liked designs that flew well enough to be used as club builds.  That's probably more satisfying to me than designing a Nats winner would be.

I have strong personal preferences, and suggest that anyone interested in starting to design their own airplanes ought to develop their own.  And to encourage them, let’s keep it relatively simple!

I like relatively low aspect ratios, for example - they tend to be stronger, less prone to warp, and are more stable in strong winds.

I like airplanes slightly more nose-heavy than many others; they tend to groove better and are easier to fly by “feel” when not looking at them.

Those are starters … anyone else?

PS: Tim, when reading Netzeband’s summary, pay special attention to this -

“It slowly became obvious to me, that WINNING a stunt event was firmly in the hands of the pilot, the judges, the flying site, the weather du jour, not to mention the pilot’s lucky socks.  The capability of the AIRPLANE to perform a perceived, acceptable flight path appears way down the list in order of importance.”

Dennis
 :) :) :)
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 05:17:50 PM »
I agree that until you get up to the highest levels, the plane is more important than the pilot.  And I think that even when you do get up to the highest levels, the fit of the airplane to the pilot's individual abilities, preferences and style is probably more important than the plane itself being some platonic ideal.

I'm still kind of dwelling on Mike's original question, which can be paraphrased as "I want to design my own plane, what should I do?"

Actually, in a sense you kind of prove out what I say above: you have your own preferences, and you design to them.  Someone who likes clean tight corners and is willing to put up with nonsense from the airplane in windy conditions may want a higher aspect ratio wing, for example.
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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 05:38:14 PM »
I agree that until you get up to the highest levels, the plane is more important than the pilot.  And I think that even when you do get up to the highest levels, the fit of the airplane to the pilot's individual abilities, preferences and style is probably more important than the plane itself being some platonic ideal.

Tim, you're misreading - I submit the pilot is much more important than the airplane at all but the highest levels.

But I certainly agree with Netzeband: in a subjectively judged event such as stunt - CLPA for the purists - the capability of an airplane to fly "clean, tight corners" appears to have rather minimal impact on the standings.  And I say that having watched many Nats-winning flights over the years.

Dennis
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 05:53:16 PM »
Tim, you're misreading - I submit the pilot is much more important than the airplane at all but the highest levels.

But I certainly agree with Netzeband: in a subjectively judged event such as stunt - CLPA for the purists - the capability of an airplane to fly "clean, tight corners" appears to have rather minimal impact on the standings.  And I say that having watched many Nats-winning flights over the years.

Dennis


Mistyping, actually.  I was trying to agree with you -- really!
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Trostle

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2013, 01:41:30 AM »

The important part is that if it is light and straight and has plenty of power and is well trimmed, it will fly well. Most of my original designs were F1As, and the powerplant wasn't nearly good enough. :P Steve

Steve,

Maybe your problem was that the line diameter was not correct. HH%%

Keith

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »
Tim, you're misreading - I submit the pilot is much more important than the airplane at all but the highest levels.

I have actual data (well, one datum) that put it at 2:1.  I was landing a nice Impact once when I tripped and fell on my butt.  The aircraft landed itself.  The landing received a score of 11 points. Usually I'm good for about 33.  Therefore, it's two parts pilot to one part airplane.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 12:24:22 PM »
I have actual data (well, one datum) that put it at 2:1.  I was landing a nice Impact once when I tripped and fell on my butt.  The aircraft landed itself.  The landing received a score of 11 points. Usually I'm good for about 33.  Therefore, it's two parts pilot to one part airplane.


I disagree with that...
That plane was very good, and very smart, enough so, to get you a "unheard" of re-fly... and a chance to improve your score with an extra flight... by ejecting a part of itself at a very opportune time... matter of fact, your airplanes timing was impeccable !! I just wished I had mine trained so well .

Randy

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 02:36:50 PM »
A day that shall live in infamy.  I went to the pavilion to turn myself in, figuring I'd be DQed.  I was surprised to find that I got a free reflight, thus setting off years of scorn and teasing, remedied only by my getting a rule passed that makes such a transgression result in disqualification, as we all thought it did before. 
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Offline phil c

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2013, 08:41:05 PM »
I'd make a little addition to that quote: ""If it looks right, it will probably fly right". is true.   Mainly because if you pattern your plane similar to what several other flyers have done, your plane will fly much the same.

If your goal is to build something that doesn't look a lot like all the other planes then you have to either build a number of test beds, or learn how to design by the numbers.  A good example is one of George A's later designs that used a lot more leading edge sweep than the Nobler.  As far as I know no one has ever said it was a good flying stunter.  Compare that to the Brian Eather's Firecracker.  It is way different than most competitive stunters but does very well and has a reputation as an excellent plane in the wind.  The first was designed by TLAR, without taking into account the effect of changing the wing shape.  The Firecracker was designed to fly well in the wind.
phil Cartier

Offline John Sunderland

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2013, 09:45:50 PM »
A day that shall live in infamy.  I went to the pavilion to turn myself in, figuring I'd be DQed.  I was surprised to find that I got a free reflight, thus setting off years of scorn and teasing, remedied only by my getting a rule passed that makes such a transgression result in disqualification, as we all thought it did before. 

I remember that! At first I was a little miffed at the decision since you and I were so close in score but Warren rightly showed me the exact verbage and discussions of how past DQ's had been assessed improperly were the topic of discussion for the rest of the day! mw~

Offline Trostle

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2013, 10:41:32 AM »

  A good example is one of George A's later designs that used a lot more leading edge sweep than the Nobler.  As far as I know no one has ever said it was a good flying stunter. 


Phil,

I believe you are making reference to the Magnum designed by George Aldrich.  Yes, it had "a lot more leading edge sweep than the Nobler" and I believe George made no claims that it was a good airplane.  In fact, I believer there was something written years ago that George was disappointed in its performance.  Now, flash forward to some recent VSC competition.  Frank McMillan built a magnum from Aldrich plans.  Frank flew it quite successfully and placed high at several VSC competitions and I believe he campaigned that airplane at some local contests as well.  It flew very well.  I spoke to Frank on several occasions and he believed that George had not compensated the need to move the CG further aft (relative to the root chord) which was necessitated by the increased LE sweep.  Or in other words, the MAC was further aft relative to the root chord.  (I know, it is heresy to suggest that George would not have known that his Magnum might have been nose heavy, but that is about the only reason to think that Frank's Magmum flew quite well while George was disappointed in his.)

Now, I think there is a practical limit for LE sweep (i.e. limit for wing taper) on a stunt ship given the "typical" size of our competitive stunt ships like being between 550 and 700 sq. in.  When the tip chord gets smaller, the Reynolds Number decreases and the efficiency of the lifting properties for the given area decreases.  Some of this can be made up by using thicker sections at the tip, but there is a point of diminishing returns as the tip chord is decreased.  With proper airfoils and trim and power, a highly tapered wing can perform well in the wind (like the Firecracker and the Magnum).  But again, I believe there is a limit on how small the tip chord should be.

Keith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2013, 10:52:41 AM »
If your goal is to build something that doesn't look a lot like all the other planes then you have to either build a number of test beds, or learn how to design by the numbers.

The trick is knowing just which "numbers" you need to design by -- and that's something that I can't claim to know thoroughly (although I'm sure there are any number of people willing to give me lists of such numbers -- probably conflicting).
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2013, 11:24:53 AM »
A day that shall live in infamy.  I went to the pavilion to turn myself in, figuring I'd be DQed.  I was surprised to find that I got a free reflight, thus setting off years of scorn and teasing, remedied only by my getting a rule passed that makes such a transgression result in disqualification, as we all thought it did before. 

Howard,

I might need to go back to look at the history of the changes made for our CLPA rules regarding "dropped parts" during an official flight.

In the CL General rules, Paragraph 7:  "A foul shall be called against a contestant when any part of his model other than the propeller(s), but including wheels and/or tires, is lost during flight..."

Then, in the CL General rules, Paragraph 9:  "For precision aerobatics, any foul defined in these regulations happening between when the model begins a takeoff and when the model comes to a stop shall result in the flight being official and receiving a zero score."

So, for CLPA, if a part is "lost during flight" and before "the model comes to a stop", it is a foul, and the flight will be called official and receive a zero score.  The pilot/model is not disqualified.  Except for the Nats, this means that one attempt and one official flight has been taken of the three attempts for two official flights allowed in competition.  And as you well know, the Nats Open and Advanced events (and for 2013 - the Expert event) have different standards for attempts/official flights during the different rounds of qualifying, semi-finals and finals.  Nevertheless, the General rules will still apply where a dropped part during a flight (whether or not made official by going inverted on the Reverse Wingover) will result in the flight being declared official with a zero score.

That is the rules as now written and I believe that is the way it was changed several years ago.

Keith

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2013, 04:52:40 PM »

 Keith, so you are saying that even if you call an attempt and a part falls off before you lannd that makes it an official flight with a 0 score
rad racer

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2013, 06:13:52 PM »
Howard,

I might need to go back to look at the history of the changes made for our CLPA rules regarding "dropped parts" during an official flight.

In the CL General rules, Paragraph 7:  "A foul shall be called against a contestant when any part of his model other than the propeller(s), but including wheels and/or tires, is lost during flight..."

Then, in the CL General rules, Paragraph 9:  "For precision aerobatics, any foul defined in these regulations happening between when the model begins a takeoff and when the model comes to a stop shall result in the flight being official and receiving a zero score."

So, for CLPA, if a part is "lost during flight" and before "the model comes to a stop", it is a foul, and the flight will be called official and receive a zero score.  The pilot/model is not disqualified.  Except for the Nats, this means that one attempt and one official flight has been taken of the three attempts for two official flights allowed in competition.  And as you well know, the Nats Open and Advanced events (and for 2013 - the Expert event) have different standards for attempts/official flights during the different rounds of qualifying, semi-finals and finals.  Nevertheless, the General rules will still apply where a dropped part during a flight (whether or not made official by going inverted on the Reverse Wingover) will result in the flight being declared official with a zero score.

That is the rules as now written and I believe that is the way it was changed several years ago.

Keith

I am the person who submitted the rule change proposal in 2009.  Here is the reasoning I put in the "Logic behind proposed change..." paragraph (in the draft I found, anyhow):

"In CL General Paragraph 9, a pilot is currently penalized with an attempt for committing a foul.  An attempt is a just and sufficient penalty for some events, but for CL Aerobatics, an attempt currently gives the pilot a second chance for an official flight.  This results in many cases as a reward for having done something wrong: dropping a part in flight, for example.  The proposed rule change restores what I presume to be the original intent to CL General Paragraph 9.  

I wrote this proposal to apply to fouls in general, not merely parts falling off.  If a pilot is dissatisfied with his flight, he shouldn’t be able to remove his safety thong and get a refly.  I restricted fouls to moving violations: a pilot shouldn’t forfeit a flight for failing a pull test."  


This removed the "Rush rule" albatross from my neck.

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Offline Trostle

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2013, 07:53:23 PM »
Keith, so you are saying that even if you call an attempt and a part falls off before you lannd that makes it an official flight with a 0 score

Bob,

I just quoted the rule that says if a part fall off, the flight becomes official with a zero score.  The rule does not specify if the flight has already become and official flight.  The way the rule reads that if a flight is started but the pilot does not execute the inverted portion of the Reverse Wingover, the flight is an attempt.  However, if a part falls off, it becomes official and a zero score results.  I am not sure if that was the intent of the change, but that is the way the rule reads.

I am open to any explanation that differs from what the rule seems to read.

Keith

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2013, 08:01:37 PM »
The trick is knowing just which "numbers" you need to design by -- and that's something that I can't claim to know thoroughly (although I'm sure there are any number of people willing to give me lists of such numbers -- probably conflicting).

    There is no such thing as "designing by numbers" independent of experiment or experience. The basic parameters of successful models are very well known and, near as I can tell, represent the entire range of possible competitive models. However, following the numbers right down the middle of the road is only necessary, not sufficient, to create a superior airplane.

    What I have done, and others have done, is to build an airplane, evaluate the performance, diagnose any issues that cannot be trimmed out with the normal trim parameters, and then change the design to address these issues. It takes extensive experience to tell the difference between a trim issue that you can correct, and one that you cannot correct and would thus require a change to the design, and to separate all these "observations" from the other factors like engine performance, quality of construction, atmospheric effects, and most importantly, pilot skill limitations.

    What you will find is that almost all design characteristics and the differences between designs are utterly and completely swamped by all of the above. Meaning that you need to have exceptional skills before you have a good chance of figuring out what design changes are needed or beneficial. Knowing some of the physics or other mechanics of the situation are useful to limit the number of dead ends you go down. Even if you knew the physics perfectly, that is not sufficient.

    Two things that will never ever happen:

    no one will sit down with a clean sheet of paper and the rule book, and design a successful airplane from scratch with no other experience or reference to other designs
    no one will ever develop the skills to evaluate the issues mentioned above without extensive interaction with other people in the event

     I know, I tried something kind of like this, and it was an utter and complete delusion.

     The order in which you work on these skills and to what degree you need to weight them can only be determined by your capabilities.  

    Brett
    

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2013, 10:08:57 PM »
The way the rule reads that if a flight is started but the pilot does not execute the inverted portion of the Reverse Wingover, the flight is an attempt.  However, if a part falls off, it becomes official and a zero score results.  I am not sure if that was the intent of the change, but that is the way the rule reads.

I am open to any explanation that differs from what the rule seems to read.

You seem to doubt that its author could express his intent.  The point is to penalize a contestant when a part falls off his moving airplane.  Whether his takeoff leads to an official flight or to an attempt without reverse wingover, the circle is populated with judges and others who are equally imperiled.   
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 12:45:05 AM »
You seem to doubt that its author could express his intent.  The point is to penalize a contestant when a part falls off his moving airplane.  Whether his takeoff leads to an official flight or to an attempt without reverse wingover, the circle is populated with judges and others who are equally imperiled.   

No Howard, I would never "doubt" the ability of the author to "express his intent".  I firmly believe that the individual "author" in this case ALWAYS very carefully chooses his words. 

However, I was somewhat confused by your comment in post #14 above where you wrote: "I was surprised to find that I got a free reflight, thus setting off years of scorn and teasing, remedied only by my getting a rule passed that makes such a transgression result in disqualification ...."

Following your statement, I quoted the actual applicable wording as it now appears in the CL General section of the rulebook.  That wording does not mention anything about disqualification.  "Disqualification" as discussed in the AMA General rules is reserved for some serious infraction and the contestant is to be excluded "from any and all events" for reasons outlined in the rulebook as determined by the Contest Director.  The occurrence of a part falling off of an airplane is not in itself such a serious infraction that would automatically result in "disqualification" unless the contestant is judged to be "guilty of wilful misconduct" in one of several areas explained in the rulebook.  The wording of the current rules is very clear that if a part of the model is dropped on a flight, it is deemed to be a "foul", and the flight becomes official with a zero score, even if the inverted portion of the Reverse Wingover is not performed.  That is NOT a disqualification as defined by the rulebook.  Thus, my comment about wondering if the wording of the actual and current rules in CL General really reflected the "intent" of the "author".

Keith 

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 11:03:24 AM »
I firmly believe that the individual "author" in this case ALWAYS very carefully chooses his words.  

Aha, there's where you are wrong.  I knew it was somewhere.  

As for the disqualification vs. zero score, yes, you are correct.  I thought you were addressing the part about whether a part falling off before the reverse wingover should cause the flight to count and have zero score.  My reading as well as my writing was faulty. 
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Design Parameters III
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2013, 02:10:38 AM »
You'd have less chance of adjusting accurately, either in trimming or design, if you use the wrong "numbers". For instance, balance, preferred control rate, and static stability will be harder to achieve, if you use a "nose moment" (really arm) measured from the wing leading edge to the spinner instead of from the c.g. to whatever mass you might move, or if you measure the tail arm as "hinge to hinge" rather than  a.c. to a.c. or c.g. to horizontal tail a.c. You need to know what the actual moments (leverages) are that act on the model and where they're centered. Many tiimes on the forums, modelers just say "tail moment," and from context or experience we know they haven't given an actual moment, but don't even know which wrong arm is intended. There are right "numbers" that should be understood, but fortunately intuition often takes us in the right direction, if the plane is a lot like others. 'might need a bit more trial and error. However, as Brett points out, our starting points are most often what we know to have worked. It takes the "right numbers" to best scale, compare, or modify these designs successfully.

I have a copy of GMA's (Edit: initial corrected) original "Magnum" plans with mods penciled in a year later (dated) to overcome what he must have considered its shortcomings. He even tried running the leadouts through the leading edge, very apparently having misplaced the c.g. He also had drawn in a 2" longer tail and 1" shorter nose, which at least addressed the problem. Successful "Magnums" built later probably did have c.g.'s placed properly as referenced to the true a.c. of the wing, measured along the MAC rather than the root chord, another example of using the "right numbers."
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 11:27:59 AM by Serge_Krauss »


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