Eletric X Glow, fair?

[MarcusCordeiro]

I've been thinking about this since the world's started.
Eletrics theorically have certain advantage 'cause they'll run like no surprises and never blow the time, go lean or rich during a flight, etc.
Should eletrics have their own category, I mean glow and eletric be two different classes??
Me, I'd say yes.
What say you?

Marcus

[proparc]

No, they don't in F3A. Don't see why they have to here. Plus, I want to take my "72" up against the electrics LOL.

[Steve Helmick]

Electrics definitely have a bunch of advantages, but I'd say "NO!". Not that I have anything against them. If I was 10 years younger, or if sourcing fuel was a real problem, I'd sell all of my IC's an go electric. If I can beat an electric, all the better.    Steve

[Bruce Perry]

......   Utterly ridiculous!

[Brett Buck]

I've been thinking about this since the world's started.
Eletrics theorically have certain advantage 'cause they'll run like no surprises and never blow the time, go lean or rich during a flight, etc.
Should eletrics have their own category, I mean glow and eletric be two different classes??
Me, I'd say yes.
What say you?

  I would have to say no. If they end up being an advantage then people will switch. We didn't create a separate category for wood props or baffle-piston engines, tuned pipes, or 4-strokes, so I can't see why we would want to split off electrics. Assuming that they provide an advantage, why would we make new categories just to support obsolete technology.

    I don't think you have to worry too much. It's clear that you can still be competitive with IC engines and some would argue they are still superior. They will be competitive in the right hands for the foreseeable future.

    Brett

[James Mills]

Absolutely Not!

James

[Chris Wilson]

........why would we make new categories just to support obsolete technology.

Because for many the I.C engine defines the hobby to a very large extent.

How about considering electric Team race, combat, speed, or lets drift off topic to a field that has already resolved this - drag racing.

Some folk consider the past time to encompass the visual as well as the aural and its been proven that ones sense of smell is the greatest trigger for memories. Good memories to me concern smelling castor oil, methanol and just quietly diesel fuel.

Now with electrics I DON'T want to smell anything as it usually means a failure of some kind!
(Unless one likes the reek of ozone.)

[Brett Buck]

Because for many the I.C engine defines the hobby to a very large extent.

  Well, to each his own. I heard the same argument about 4-2 breaks, and there are certainly some people that still think that. We didn't change it then.

   As far as I am concerned the essence of the event is building a model and flying it against others. Electric doesn't change that.

    Brett

 

[Chris Wilson]

  Well, to each his own. I heard the same argument about 4-2 breaks, and there are certainly some people that still think that. We didn't change it then.

   As far as I am concerned the essence of the event is building a model and flying it against others. Electric doesn't change that.

    Brett

 

Totally agree with the first line Brett, and its the flying part I hold dear to.
Control line flying to me is control by the lines only and as such only passive pilot preset controls should be allowed.

Active speed control and timers tells me that something beyond the pilot has partially taken over and that IS a change.

[Dennis Moritz]

Interesting isn't it, that electric was once considered a futile side show with many inherent liabilities. Opinions are reversing. Like the flick of a switch.  

What about the computer controls necessary in these modern electric systems. This introduces a qualitative change in the power sources. Computer controls provide infinitely adjustable power effects. Let our imaginations fly. Previously, we were in old fashioned classic free flight mode, when it came to the control of an engine. Simply (or complexly?) rigged mechanisms. Computers elaborate this process.

[Chris Wilson]

Interesting isn't it, that electric was once considered a futile side show with many inherent liabilities. Opinions are reversing. Like the flick of a switch.  

Its not the choice of power plants that I object to, its the active control systems that go along with them.

Pick any motor sport and you will find the same arguments about the dehumanizing of active control systems.

[Dennis Moritz]

Hi Chris I added a second paragraph to my previous statement. We agree.

[Dennis Moritz]

Maybe we'll see a micro computer regulating a PA or Ro-jett.

[Keith Renecle]

I had this same discussion yesterday with many people here at the world champs. If you look at the list of the results before the top 15 fly-offs you will see that the top 4 are electric. Here is the link http://www.f2abcd.com/download/download.php?file=f2b.pdf

After the 2nd round Andre Yatsenko was in the lead with his Retro engine and new Shark. So 11 out of 15 are engine powered. The Chinese are all flying 4-bangers and there are not many tuned pipes in this mix. I was also asked if the "huge" advantange of electrics being able to shut off at exactly the right time should not push them into a separate category, and once again I answered no. Why? Because the FAI rules allow the use of timers and shut-offs on IC engines as well. As far as performance in the horrendous conditions we've been flying in since last week, I would say that reliability and getting exactly the same rpm setting in any weather condition is the only real advantage. I'm talking about heat up to 40 degrees C with winds gusting to 16 metres per second. To top this, setting the rpm exactly the same for each flight is not good enough for all conditions, so even with a computer adjusted electric system the pilot still has to know how to set it up for optimum performance. I was flying electric and I guessed wrong a few times and ended up flying a little slower than I would have liked to with exactly the same rpm as the previous day. As Brett says, we've been through many power systems and it all comes down to the people that know how to get the best out of the engine or motor system.

Igor Burger is the man to beat and his electric system is quite complex but it's more the man at the handle and the huge amount of hours he has put in to his model design and of course, the HUGE amount of practice. All of the top guys are put before the sun gets up trying to put in extra rounds of practice. Just remember that the present world champ flew an ST 60 with a wood prop. So the basic answer to the question from Marcus is no. Everyone still has the choice but right now for equal performance, electric is a lot cheaper to buy and to run, so I believe that it will continue to grow and we will see more and more people flying electric stunt....and that is a good thing!

Keith R

[proparc]

The Chinese are all flying 4-bangers and there are not many tuned pipes in this mix.  
Keith R

The Chinese know what they are doing!!!

[Andrew Borgogna]

I would say no as well.  I have now switched almost exclusively to electric and I believe that an electric power system, at least one made with off the shelf parts, is no better than a good piped engine.  The real difference is cost.  A good electric system running a governor controlled motor offers all the advantages of a piped engine, but it does not come from an "engine expert" who's expertise is secret and costly.  We in electric are leveraging off the past ten years of hard work done in the R/C world.  The only new item is the timer.  Yes the timer offers the assurance that you won't have an over run or under run, but I have yet to see a serious Expert loose a contest over engine run times. 

Electric does have another advantage to people like me who live in cities, we can fly at most parks with no trouble.  Quite electric powered planes do not upset the public like gas engines do.  I would have to drive 40+ miles each way to practice with a gas power model.  I can go five miles with electric, and given $4.00/gal gasoline it makes a difference.

It is still the person holding the handle, he is the deciding factor in winning contests.  A little luck with the wind can be nice too.
Andy

[proparc]

Its pretty much the same as in F3A. Its whose on that week. Although there, it is a little different because, the supercharged 4 bangers are really giving it to the electrics. Here, we can't really take advantage of the supercharger,(darn it).

I just don't see why a good Saito 62 with a BR carb, can't take on any electric if the plane is cooking for that 4 stroke. Igor Burger's GeeBee is optimized for his electric powerplant. Most 4 strokes have have been stuck in 2 stroke ships.

Also, we can use anything from a Saito 40A to the Saito 91. It would have to be one heck of an electric to go up against a 91 super big block!!

[PJ Rowland]

I'm yet to see a flier who was "average IC flier " switch to Electric and become World Class.

Looking through the list of top 15 - go back a few years most of them were there or there abouts before the "huge" advantage of Electric.

I see it as a non-issue.

Its the whole Tuned pipe argument all over again...........

"Cant win if you dont have this technology....... Judges are Biased towards this technology "

Get out develop a package that allows you to put the model where YOU WANT it to go.

Hasnt changed in 50 years.

[Trostle]

Right now, the FAI F2B rules allow an active speed control system for electrics.  The F2B rules DO NOT allow any active speed control for IC engines other than what can be gained with combinations of tank, engine, muffler, pipe, pressure system or whatever just as long as the engine/fuel system is completely passive, or in other words, no active electronic system to control engine speed.  This difference in the rules is intentional to promote the development and use of electrics in the quest to help save flying sites.  If and whenever it is that these rules give such a significant advantage to electrics that IC engines clearly become obsolete, a change to lift the active control restriction on IC engine might happen, but I would not plan on that in the foreseeable future. 

Keith

[Derek Barry]

I've been thinking about this since the world's started.
Eletrics theorically have certain advantage 'cause they'll run like no surprises and never blow the time, go lean or rich during a flight, etc.
Should eletrics have their own category, I mean glow and eletric be two different classes??
Me, I'd say yes.
What say you?

Marcus

I have seen electrics do everything that you listed that they won't do. There is no such thing and a flawless system

Derek

[MarcusCordeiro]

Well, I guess everybody thinks we shouldn't. I'll go with the pack.
I just think that we could have at some point too much eletronic interference, because one thing leads to the other and so on.
It's just like cars, I mean, you have so much eletronic controls that even not-skilled drivers can drive like racedriver. Traction, stability, etc.
It could happen to models too...

Marcus

[Dennis Adamisin]

Well, I guess everybody thinks we shouldn't. I'll go with the pack.
I just think that we could have at some point too much eletronic interference, because one thing leads to the other and so on.

Marcus

Marcus

Your concern here is actually an opportunity too.  Many OTS modelers have discovered electronic spark ignition systems to make ther vintage spark ignition engines run very well and very dependably.  With the electronics comes the POTENTIAL of electronic control of spark advance which should cause reactions fast enough to govern an IC engine in the F2B schedule by using control logic similar to the governing systems of an electric motor.

So imagine a modern piped engine converted to "sparky" and using electronic spark control to further enhance the governing attributed to the pipe.  Of course it would not even have to be piped, and I think Saito already makes a smallish 4-stroke on spark ignition...

[MarcusCordeiro]

Sure thing.
Someone talked about drag racing.
I've been dragging for more that 20years and nowadays I race a 2.0liter in line 4, turbocharged, intercooled, 300 hp daily driver that gets
good enough mileage. It's got all the eletronics one can get. When I started racing I used to race one GM 250 in line 6, with a duel barrel carb and no eletronics at all, not even ignition.That thing slurpped fuel and you can't compare the 1/4 mile E.T.
If that happened to models, I think it would be great, but to all models.
And that is my point, can IC improve as fast as eletric?
Or will everybody be charging up batteries in the future? 

Marcus

[john e. holliday]

This makes me think back to when 4 strokes were going to dominate.   It all comes down to the individual and how much effor he/she puts forth.

[proparc]

This makes me think back to when 4 strokes were going to dominate.  

Hey!! they still are going to.

[proparc]

Maybe this will be like F3A where, the electrics have to go into battle against the dominant superchargers. In this case, it could be the Saito 72 and 91's against the powerful AXI's and Plettenbergs. Sounds exciting. We could certainly do with a little more excitement in stunt.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Keith
I assume by "active speed control" you are referring to the governor.  Yes F2B allows governors to be used in electric power system, but I would argue that the use of a tuned pipe in a control line aerobatic power system is also making use of an active speed control.  You know far more about this than I do, but my understanding is the tuned pipe in aerobatics is not used for achieving maximum power but to act as a governor under varying loads.  I used a lot of pipes when I was flying high speed R/C planes way back when.  The shape and tuning of those pipes was nothing like the shape and tuning of a control line aerobatic pipe.  Now one advantage the governor has over the tuned pipe is it is easier to program the boost curve (KR's vari-gain) to more accurately meet the needs of control line aerobatics.  I believe piped IC engines behaved every bit as good, it just took more work and money to get there.  Also as I stated before it cost a great deal less to set up a competitive electric power system than it does to put together a competitive piped IC power system.  But in the end it's the pilot not the power system that will win. 
Andy

[Joe Yau]

I don't think having Electric in a separate class is the answer..  so, my vote is no.   maybe points deductions like in OTS with flapped stunters etc. would be more appropriate like -25pts or so.  with Electric just getting better and better, and IC has already peaked, and has stopped progressing for years.  not to mention just a tiny piece of dirt getting in the filter/nva could totally ruin the run in an IC set up.

[Trostle]

Keith
I assume by "active speed control" you are referring to the governor.  Yes F2B allows governors to be used in electric power system, but I would argue that the use of a tuned pipe in a control line aerobatic power system is also making use of an active speed control. 

(Clip)

Andy

Andy,

Maybe I was not clear in what I wrote.  The way the FAI rules are written, they do no allow active/interactive speed control for IC engines other than what is provided by the passive reaction to the engine/pipe/mufler/fuel system.  That means that tuned pipes or any other special or non-special mufflers and whatever function they serve for the pilot are allowed.  Same with uniflow or any other special or "standard " sort of tanks and however they may be plumbed.  I am sure that there could be some very elaborate non-electronic systems devised.  But what is not allowed on IC engines is some sort of electronic sensor connected to a control systems that automatically changes fuel/engine settings depending on flight loads.  All I am saying is that these are allowed on the electrics.

Keith

[Bob Hunt]

This is just hilarious; a very few years back there was a move to establish a separate class for electrics because they could not compete on an even level with the glow engined ships. Now the thought is to separate them because they are proving to be superior. Does anyone else see the humor here? 

Guys, things will always progress, and they should. We have vintage events for the old stuff, and that's great. Let the technology take us where it will. If you feel that electric power has an advantage, then switch to electric. There is a certain political party whose outlook seems to be, "If we don't like it, then it should be outlawed for everyone." There is another party whose outlook is, "If you don't like it, don't do it, but leave us alone to choose our own path." I'm most certainly in that latter group...

There is a very good chance that electric power will win this year's World Championsips (or already has). Does that mean that those of you who prefer glow have to go to that mode of power? No! It means that there is a choice that is competitive with the long accepted power mode. Choice is a good thing.

Let's keep our eye on the ball; the event is about performing geomety in the sky, not arguing over what will power the models that perform that geometry.

Electric is here. It's here to stay. It will get measurably better each year. Deal with it.

Bob Hunt 

[proparc]

Bob is right, every time a new type of powerplant comes on board there is a howl. Windy said it "more choices". If you couldn’t win with an I.C., you’re probably not going to win with an electric, or 4 stroke or anything else. The guys who are winning with electrics now, were winning with Fox 35's many years moons ago LOL.  Howard Rush switched to electrics at this years Nats, and it did not instantly turn him into a stunt monster.

When 4 strokes came on the scene, nobody believed you could win with them until, Paul Walker took all the Marbles at the Nats. The fact that they were winning numerous contests all over Europe for many years didn't register. Remi Beringer's win at the Worlds with his little 4 banger against pipe ships, just solidified the fact that they work, and work real good.

The guys who are doing well with electrics have those front ends just as dialed in as their former I.C. setups. They win because, they are better at setting things up than other people; no matter what they use.  They win, because they do things better all the time.

[Steve Helmick]

Somebody needs to get going on steam powered stunt, because it's obviously the next big thing...    Be quick about it, before there's a move to ban it or give it a 25 point penalty.  Steve

[proparc]

Somebody needs to get going on steam powered stunt, because it's obviously the next big thing...    Be quick about it, before there's a move to ban it or give it a 25 point penalty.  Steve

Ion drive thats the thing.

[MarcusCordeiro]

I don't think having Electric in a separate class is the answer..  so, my vote is no.   maybe points deductions like in OTS with flapped stunters etc. would be more appropriate like -25pts or so.  with Electric just getting better and better, and IC has already peaked, and has stopped progressing for years.  not to mention just a tiny piece of dirt getting in the filter/nva could totally ruin the run in an IC set up.

This is something to consider and the kind of advantage I talked about. I don't think of eletric as a flawless thing, but the chance of that happening is pretty smaller.
I don't see a separated class as a bad thing, but if with evolution, the rules change and allow IC to have more "resources", like sparking control, let's get it on!!
And I do not think that banning eletric will do any good, but they did ban the hemis from the tracks, didn't they?

But for now Bob is right, just deal with it.

Marcus

[RandySmith]

And I do not think that banning eletric will do any good, but they did ban the hemis from the tracks, didn't they?


What they did was to ban large motors, all large motors ,they had to go a small blocks

Randy

[Andrew Borgogna]

Keith
I see what you are saying and I have no disagreement with your position.  I guess I don't understand why FAI or AMA for that matter does not allow an active speed control on IC engines.  Certainly the technology is there.  Like I said before we are leveraging off of many years of hard work in the R/C world developing electric power systems.  I do not believe we would be anywhere near where we are today without the work they did.  The concept of governor came from the Heli people not control line.  Using outrunner motors and LiPoly batteries with high tech ESCs all came from R/C, really the only control line centric part is the timer.  The development cost of an active speed control for IC engines is the biggest obstacle to having it.  It would be costly to develop, and the market is very limited.  The reality is the electric development work and costs for the most part have already been paid for and I am very happy to be able to piggy back on that work.  

I actually built an Old Time legal plane with electric power, not to compete with but to practice with.  The All American Sr. with a clockwise running motor is a heck of a lot of fun to fly, and I can fly most anytime I want and anywhere I want.  Here in the city where I live you cannot make that statement with IC engines.
Andy

[Bill Little]

I do not believe that electrics should have their own class.  At the very top levels of flying, those guys can make anything work.

Our USA team at the WC is a mixture:  Paul Walker is running electric, Dave Fitzgerald is running a PA .75 on pipe, and Orestes is running, as far as I know, a Discovery Retro .60 (muffler).  The only type of power missing is a 4 stroke. 

Will CLPA eventually end up mainly electric?  I think so, but it might be a while before that.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Steve Fitton]

...Will CLPA eventually end up mainly electric?  I think so, but it might be a while before that.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

CLPA won't be all electric 'till Derek retires! 

[Trostle]

Keith
I see what you are saying and I have no disagreement with your position.  I guess I don't understand why FAI or AMA for that matter does not allow an active speed control on IC engines.  

(Clip)

Andy

Andy,

I guess I am still not making myself clear.  I am not trying to discuss my "position".  All I have tried to do is explain that the FAI F2B rules are very specific about restrictions for an active speed control on IC engines and have no restrictions for an active speed control for electrics.

The AMA has no rule of any kind in CLPA or Control Line General against any kind of passive or active speed control for our IC engines or electrics.  I do not think I have ever implied otherwise.  Please do not suggest that I have.

Your experience with an electric powered OTS really has no relevance to what the FAI allows or does not allow for electrics other than to show why the FAI is promoting electrics because they are quiet and that will help save flying sites.

Keith

[peabody]

I have to go scour an old rule book, but it seems to me that as late as 2004, there was a separate class for electrics?

[Brett Buck]

Windy said it "more choices".

  Oy Vey!
     Brett

[Brett Buck]

I guess I don't understand why FAI or AMA for that matter does not allow an active speed control on IC engines.  Certainly the technology is there.

   AMA has absolutely no restrictions on active control of IC engines and never has.

   Both Igor Burger and I tried to get it allowed in FAI several times and failed. The reason given not to allow it was to "keep the event simple" and to not have the event reward "special high skills"(!). It was allowed for electric because the goal of some was to intentionally favor electric. It was clarified several times to permit things liked tuned pipes, which were argued to be illegal by a few people.

   Last I checked the ban on IC engine control in FAI was being removed. But you never know and cannot predict what will happen with FAI rules.

    Brett

[MarcusCordeiro]

It was allowed for electric because the goal of some was to intentionally favor electric

Well, if there's a favoring for eletrics, no wonder they'll get more and more popular.
then again, is that fair?

Marcus

[Trostle]

I have to go scour an old rule book, but it seems to me that as late as 2004, there was a separate class for electrics?

Rich,

You have not lost all of it yet.  There was an event in the rulebook for CL Aerobatics for electrics.  I do not remember if those rules were "unofficial" or "provisional" but they were in the rulebook.  It had their own line size requirements and I think a 15G pull test.  When the FAI crossed over to allow electrics and allowed up to 15cc (about .92 cu in)  motors with no "adjustment" for 4-stroke engines, we followed with the same provisions, though we still maintained minimum line diameters based on weight and adopted the FAI 10G pull test.  

It took several rule change cycles to get our line sizes matched to "practical" weights.

(There was a lot of gnashing of teeth against the larger displacement limits.  It only made sense that if the rest of the world could use 15cc motors, we should allow them in our rules.)

[Brett Buck]

It was allowed for electric because the goal of some was to intentionally favor electric

Well, if there's a favoring for eletrics, no wonder they'll get more and more popular.
then again, is that fair?

   No. I disagreed with that as a goal and mentioned to those involved.

    Brett

[PJ Rowland]

No Engine setup avaliable today are game changers.

[Steve Helmick]

No Engine setup avaliable today are game changers.

Ah, but what's the best motor setup? Apparently...Igor's setup! The trick control system and the guy wiggling the handle might just be factors, too.  Steve

[Bill Little]

Ah, but what's the best motor setup? Apparently...Igor's setup! The trick control system and the guy wiggling the handle might just be factors, too.  Steve

HI Steve,

The "guy wiggling the handle" is the MAJOR factor!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[proparc]

Ah, but what's the best motor setup? Apparently...Igor's setup! The trick control system and the guy wiggling the handle might just be factors, too.   Steve

Igor placed second years ago at the Worlds with an I.C. He recently won the European Championships, beating none other than, Richard Kornmeier. His Max 60 has won the Worlds under Kornmeier. Igor's strength is aerodynamics. Thats what's kickin the booty right now,superior aerodynamics-plus of course, a ton of practice.

I suspect there will be a "run" on his plans for his GeeBee now.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Keith
I think my use of the word "position" was a poor choice, I really meant explaination.  Keith I'm agreeing with you, I am not in any way trying to put words in your mouth.  With that I will pull out of this thread.
Andy