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Author Topic: electric or glow  (Read 1306 times)
Alex Becerril
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« on: August 05, 2012, 08:09:59 PM »

A few years ago there was nothing better than the pipe high rpm low pitch setup. Now you can see some of the top guys who were very successful using high rpm/low pitch piped setups using electric setups with 5 and 6 pitch props. my question is: What give you a better all around performance? Pipe  or Electric?
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 08:48:37 PM »

4 stroke!!!  Grin
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Milton "Proparc" Graham
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 08:52:34 PM »

Doesn't matter.  As we've seen, it all depends on who's on the handle.
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Dan McEntee
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2012, 09:01:35 PM »

  What is going to give you better all around performance, in my opinion, the the type of power plant that you are most comfortable and most consistent with. We do have lots of choices now. Electric has a good foot hold and won't be going away, but it is far from a "plug and play" situation, especially at the top five Open class at the NATS. I have been watching the classifieds on the forums and you see batteries, motors and speed controllers being being sold as the owners are still looking for the next greatest thing and still looking for what they are comfortable and constant with. There are lots of choices just within the electric systems. You just have to be knowledgeable about the breed, and expect a learning curve. For me, and the way I participate and fly, Glow is the way to go. I can do what I did today, just grab a plane off the wall, a jug of fuel and a few tool boxes and go. Get as many flights as I want and as fast as I can. Most electric guys try to get to the field with at least a couple of charged packs, and need to recharge at the field to continue if the situation warrants. I can pull a syringe of fuel and be started and back in the air a whole lot faster than some of these battery pack can be recharged.. I don't know if I can ever wrap my mind around what one needs to know about the electric systems to be consistent at any level, and at my age I don't think I want to get involved financially what it would take and go through the learning curve all over again. I find that I just like engines. I like the satisfaction of fueling up, choking the engine , connecting the battery and feeling that bump and knowing it's waiting to come alive! And the payoff is a one flip start, and good consistent engine run, and having it shut off just when you think it will. I guess you can call me old school or a traditionalist.
   I have noticed one thing this summer. I was watching some guys program the stuff at the SIG contest and talking about the different equipment that is available now. One guy mentioned the new speed control module he had that sensed the increase in current draw as the nose went up, and added a bit more power that could be programmed in. I said "WHAT!!?Huh " "You mean to tel me that you are programming in a "break" into the motor run??" and he replied "Yes". And I said well, it has now come full circle! He asked what I meant, and I said, " We have spent all these years trying to get our Fox .35s to run like and electric motor, and now you guys are trying to get you electric motors to run like Fox .35s!!!"
   Who woulda thunk it??
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Dennis Moritz
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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 08:35:50 AM »

For someone starting out, it seems to me electric has many inherent advantages. IC engines in stunt are difficult to tune and tame, so that they run reliably and enhance model performance. Reliable and stunt friendly electric power is much easier to set up. I have seen a number of modelers new to competition who advance quickly when they start out with motors and batteries. Whereas newbies and retreads often spend a year or more getting their engines to power without going lean, running erratically, or cutting out. Note: these are observations made by a person who flies and prefers IC. For now.
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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 10:02:29 AM »

On a serious note, what stumps a lot of newbies to our sport is our sophisticated tank setups. I personally don't feel we have done a really good job of showing how we plumb our complex uniflow setups.

Consequently, the electrics seem more accessible to them,(of course the pros use electrics too). Try to remember that, the tanks setups in RC are much simpler and straight forward, especially if you use the popular RC 4 strokes. In addition, they can shut down by tramsmitter, we have to very precisely measure our fuel, so as not to have an over-run.

No question about it, competent I.C. operation in CLPA, demands experience and expertise usually acquired over many years. The gray haired cats like myself, know all the tricks. But we need to do a MUCH better job of making those techniques available to other flyers.
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 10:12:36 AM »

A few years ago there was nothing better than the pipe high rpm low pitch setup. Now you can see some of the top guys who were very successful using high rpm/low pitch piped setups using electric setups with 5 and 6 pitch props. my question is: What give you a better all around performance? Pipe  or Electric?

    It takes A LONG time of careful work from people who know what they are doing, to tell what the pros and cons are about any system. Stunt people tend to jump on bandwagons far too quickly. You have to commit to something for a long time to even be able to make reasonable comparison, and then be able to make an objective evaluation after spending at least several years of your life on the topic  The sole exception in my experience was piped engines, it was so obviously superior to what we had before that it was a complete no-brainer almost immediately that you had to switch to be competitive.

     Brett
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 02:52:51 PM »

On a serious note, what stumps a lot of newbies to our sport is our sophisticated tank setups. I personally don't feel we have done a really good job of showing how we plumb our complex uniflow setups.

There is an easy way around that....  Don't use uniflow.  I use simple RC clunk tank from Sullivan model RST 8.  I think it costs $5.95 maybe $6.95.  Run it on pressure and just make sure the pressure line in the tank runs to the front along the centerline of the tank on the inboard side so it uncovers as soon as possible.  Vent to the top as normal.  It has yielded steady runs for many years.  Been on this style since 1996.  One draw back is each tank has to be shimmed at the beginning.  But once its set it is set for life.

I know others that use a metal wedge style with uniflow and they can build their shim right into the crutch and the shim work is taken out of the game. 
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 04:47:17 PM »

I agree with Doug, I run a LA .46 this way and it is rock solid. I also have an electric as well that is also rock solid. The things I like about electric is it's quiet and I can fly at our field anytime I like, it's clean no messy oil to wipe of the model, it's smooth almost no vibration, push a button and it goes no starting hassles, consistent engine runs no runaways no going rich, electrics really are a sweet set up. One thing that I have never seen discussed on any forum though is the cost of the charging station. If you are going out for a couple of flights no problem charge at home and off you go, if you are going to put in some serious practice or are an avid  sport flier that puts up 15-20 flights in a day you will need a charging station which means two or more chargers a transformer to power them and a portable generator to power the transformer. These  things are not cheap I bought a used generator and I still ended up spending about $400.00 on everything needed to charge my batts, not cheap and until we come up with a cheap way to charge our batteries electric will always be for a few.  
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 05:04:08 PM »

Alex,
You can't really state the question as to "which powerplant gives you better all around performance" because, assuming you are going to competing in the Open class, you are almost always going to be going up against a person, who invests significantly higher levels of time and energy into their setups.

In short, what you will be facing is "competitive optimization". It doesn't matter what their running. These are the top dogs who put the work in. Paul Walker has run and won with all three types of powerplants. The common thread here, is that ALL of his setups were about as good as you can get them.

You are not really facing powerplant differences, you are facing expertise.

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Milton "Proparc" Graham
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 05:57:44 PM »

On a serious note, what stumps a lot of newbies to our sport is our sophisticated tank setups. I personally don't feel we have done a really good job of showing how we plumb our complex uniflow setups.

   How is a uniflow tank complex in any way?  You either run a pipe to one side of the tank, or the other side.

    Brett
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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 06:23:01 PM »

   How is a uniflow tank complex in any way?  You either run a pipe to one side of the tank, or the other side.

    Brett

I have seen a lot of "newbie issues" related to fuel delivery problems in general. I don't want to get caught up in the issue of complex or not. The issue is that, a lot of newcomers find our setups somewhat more intimidating to them than other venues.

We don't use stock RC carburetors. In some cases, our motors may require changes in venturi sizes, which require knowledge and expertise. This is also a fuel delivery issue. No one thing we do is a deal killer. But the sum total of the expertise required is what seems to get them.

They seem to have an easier time with RC control systems and setups than our setups. If I had a dollar for every poor control stunt setup, (stiff controls, lack of throw, wrong throw etc.) It seems a newbie can do a better job setting up the controls on a Sig Kadet than say, a Brodak Oriental. I donít why.

I have to stop here because, Alexís question was about which is the better all around powerplant and this is somewhat of a drift.
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Milton "Proparc" Graham
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 06:41:04 PM »

IC engines are more forgiving of crashing than electrics, so I'd say that once you get past a lot of crashing, go electric. Use .46LA-S for power until that time comes; then go electric.  Hoff Steve   
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 07:08:33 PM »

Alex,

Saying one power system is better than another would be too general a statement. All IC setups are not equal to each other and the same can be said about electric. Can IC be better than electric, sure. Can electric be better than IC, sure. There are far to many factors involved to pick a clear winner. IC and electric will both continue to win contests.

Once setup, electric may be easier to operate, but that could be debated as well.

Use what works for you.

Mike
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Chris Wilson
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2012, 08:41:34 PM »

And what do you use in a middle eastern country that bans all forms of alcohol? (Of which methanol certainly is.)

Diesel and its kerosene based fuel starts to get a look in for all the reasons that glow IC engines are popular.
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2012, 09:05:08 PM »

Isnt it obvious? Piped IC

I came to that conclusion using a complex equation known as the Moon-Fitzgerald Congruence .

Its far to complicated to post here, but I have given the answer.

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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2012, 09:28:43 PM »

And what do you use in a middle eastern country that bans all forms of alcohol? (Of which methanol certainly is.)

Not entirely true.  Glow fuel (80/20 methanol/castor) was often purchased in 1-liter quantities at a hobby shop specializing in RC cars at the Al-Muthanna mall, Kuwait City.

Caveat:  this information is 15 years old, thus may not be accurate today.
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 10:15:11 AM »

Not entirely true.  Glow fuel (80/20 methanol/castor) was often purchased in 1-liter quantities at a hobby shop specializing in RC cars at the Al-Muthanna mall, Kuwait City.

Caveat:  this information is 15 years old, thus may not be accurate today.

Is nitro not halal?
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2012, 05:58:21 PM »

Electric has a good foot hold and won't be going away, but it is far from a "plug and play" situation

Hey Dan;
At RSM we have been working on ECL "systems" for over 5 years. I can say with complete certainty that all of the "systems" we sell (everything from .061 to .65-74) is "plug and play". When we send out an electric C/L "System" not only are all of the plugs and connectors soldered on but the programming is also installed. All you have to do is to mount the "System" on your model, hook up a charged battery and flip the switch. The "system" will run properly!

We have just completed our field testing on a line of sports "systems" that will match all of our current competition "systems".

While the fellows in the top five will no doubt wish to use their own set up just like they do in glow power for the rest of us a Plug & Play "system"s available.

Best regards

Eric Rule
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2012, 06:56:29 PM »

Is nitro not halal?

<chuckle>...Apparently not.
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2012, 04:35:21 PM »

   How is a uniflow tank complex in any way?  You either run a pipe to one side of the tank, or the other side.

    Brett
Because it gives choice, the choice to vent the wrong pipe - and this comes up over and over again in forums and on the field.

It may not the complicated to the initiated but to the beginner it gives a 50% chance of being wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2012, 04:44:52 PM »

Because it gives choice, the choice to vent the wrong pipe - and this comes up over and over again in forums and on the field.

It may not the complicated to the initiated but to the beginner it gives a 50% chance of being wrong.

Oh good grief, it is not complex, if you use that logic electric has 3 wires so you have a choice to hook them up wrong, not to mention all the other hookups.
They are really not complex at all, all one needs to do is pay attention, and find out where what goes, how things hookup, that is always been easy, and is simple these days...if... you just do as you should and not guess.

Randy
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2012, 08:45:04 PM »

Oh good grief, it is not complex, if you use that logic electric has 3 wires so you have a choice to hook them up wrong, not to mention all the other hookups.
They are really not complex at all, all one needs to do is pay attention, and find out where what goes, how things hookup, that is always been easy, and is simple these days...if... you just do as you should and not guess.

Randy

    And of the 6 possible arrangements:
  2 will work exactly how you think (correct setup AND reversed vent and pickup), one will cut off a little cleaner
  2 will run like a suction tank and be obvious what the problem is (fuel line attached to vent w/pickup plugged AND fuel line attached to pickup w/vent plugged) - and will still run satisfactorily
  2 will not run at all nor likely even be able to be choked (fuel line attached to overflow, and vent OR pickup plugged)

   If you don't plug anything, it will just run like a suction tank in 4 of the configurations instead of just two. The two mistakes that make it not run are more-or-less the same as you can make with a suction tank.

   I agree that it can be screwed up, and I see it *very occasionally* but I can't see it as a significant inhibiting factor to participation. Lots of 10-year-olds managed to hook up Veco T-21s successfully.

    Brett
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2012, 11:18:33 PM »

You can mount the battery in any position and it will work. If you mount the T-21 with the wedge inboard, it will not be very satisfactory. I have been sworn to secrecy on this subject!  Devil Steve
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2012, 08:49:12 AM »

Of course the biggest mistake we make is not reading and following instructions.  When I got my first 4 stroke I pulled the instructions and started reading.   Read them a second time just to see what I misread.   Guys at the field were amazed that I did not use an electric starter.     
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