Walker Cup.....

[Howard Rush]

But your question about "who would be the Nats winner?" maybe shows you yet do not understand what has been proposed AND APPROVED by PAMPA...

No, I think it shows that you don't.

Your last comment about needing to find a "drone" leaves me a bit bewildered.  Does that mean the current drone is going to pick up his marbles and go home because he does not like the idea of figuring out how to set up a program...

So I'm the bad guy for refusing to do free work to implement something I think is bad for the Nats.  Just like Warren was accused of refusing his duty to put on another Muncie team trials when he put in a bid to do one in Tucson.  I presume that "... he does not like the idea of figuring out how to set up a program" is a motivational technique to get me to prove that I am smart enough to do it.  Sometimes that works, but probably not this time.  

[RandySmith]

   No, in a few years, when you end up with no JSO. IAWTP.

    Brett

No Brett
You are just flat wrong, this has no effect on OPEN except it will be another feeder event in which some pilots will leave and go to OPEN, it also has ZERO effect on Jr and Sr.
Trying to convince people that running an existing PAMPA skill class will make the sky fall is just way beyond belief. Expert is a Skill class event just as Advanced is, plain and simple, no one is planning or wanting this to destroy Stunt

Randy

[RandySmith]

Due to finances, I haven't been to a Nats in about 10 years. While adding Expert sounds good at first glance, I feel that this has been railroaded in. It sounds like the event is being watered down. It is also the start of the end of appearance points going out the back door.

The Nats is very special having a wonderful display of beautiful airplanes in one place at one time. I hope that I am wrong, but this could be start of the end for this. People have argued about appearance to the point that we are sick, but Brett has been correct in saying that the Nats is about crowning a National Champion and should demand the TOTAL package.

Many will say that you will still have Concours. The reality is that if you don't have appearance points in "Expert", how many people will really present their airplanes in one hall, if they don't feel they will be considered for Concours?  5 or 10 at best?

That wonderful display of airplanes will be gone.

Hi Tom

and NO you and Brett are just wrong, you are trying to tell people that there are no APs in Expert, well you are not correct, there are APs in  PAMPA skill classes, What you should have said was there is no "mandatory BOM' in Skill classes. If the pilot built his model Experts will get APs.
Being chicken little and telling people the sky is falling by saying there will be no plane display  is flat wrong also, that will not happen.

Randy

[RandySmith]

"Just like Warren was accused of refusing his duty to put on another Muncie team trials when he put in a bid to do one in Tucson.  I presume that "


Howard I have  to ask since I am the guy that CD the Team Trials last time, who said that???  That is one I never heard of, and I am the Team Selection Chairman, Warren was not even asked to run the TTs last cycle, He had made it clear to me long before that he would not be in Muncie (however as it turned out he was there) Derek Barry was the  ED of that event.

Randy

[peabody]

I hope that an intelligent and fair method of policing the classes that people fly locally will apply to the new Nats event...

"Cherry Picking" / "Sandbagging" sucks....

[RandySmith]

Tom said
"but Brett has been correct in saying that the Nats is about crowning a National Champion and should demand the TOTAL package. "


And no one has changed that one iota !  The pilot still has to have the total package in order to even fly OPEN much less win,  That is NOT anything that has even been touched, your mis-information  post are not correct

Randy

[Howard Rush]

Howard I have  to ask since I am the guy that CD the Team Trials last time, who said that???  That is one I never heard of, and I am the Team Selection Chairman, Warren was not even asked to run the TTs last cycle, He had made it clear to me long before that he would not be in Muncie (however as it turned out he was there) Derek Barry was the  ED of that event.

And a very successful event it was, so I heard from those who were there.  I apologize.  I misremembered the remark in question.  Dave Fitz wrote, " If it were in Muncie again, the potential director is not interested." That is a lot less snotty than what I thought was said. 

[Bob Hunt]

The way I see this is that it just might spur more participation at the Nats. And, if we find that it is a bad idea, we can then just vote to not offer it again in the Nats menu. Let's not condemn this idea until we give it a fair chance to succeed.

We all have been lamenting the turnout at the Nats in recent years as compared to the past. Perhaps this idea will reverse that trend. It seems that enough want it to happen, so let's respect their wishes and give it an honest try.

Guys: We are grown men flying toy airplanes. Can't we agree to let each group have a venue in which to do that in their own chosen way? Seems that this makes stunt more inclusive, rather than exclusive, without endangering the "Open" class status or prestige.

Like Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced, we will need to come up with a perpetual trophy for the Expert class. If no one else wants to take on that expense and duty, I will.

There are so few of us in the entire universe who fly stunt that you would think it adviseable to work to pull together rather than pulling apart.

That's my 2-cents - Bob Hunt

[Howard Rush]

We might consider dropping the age classes and having skill classes instead of the age classes, rather than in addition to them.  Award the Walker trophy to the Expert winner.  That would remove the ambiguity.  

[Howard Rush]

The way I see this is that it just might spur more participation at the Nats.

Look at what event proliferation has done to CL racing and combat.  All those added diddly events were promoted as increasing participation.  Not having a clear Nats winner decreases my interest in participation. 

[Doug Moon]

My opinion is that Open should still be flown on all 4 circles where the top 5 from each can move on to the top 20. I would then put Advanced on two of the 4 circles and Expert on the other two.

 Just my .02

Derek

 I think we need to pay attention to our history.  In the past, prior to world champs and the huge entry that brought with it, the Open and Advanced flyers were separated.  The two events were run as separate contests.   Advanced on circles one and two and Open on circles three and four.  I heard first hand some grumblings from judges about going to the Nats and being placed on the Advanced circles and not getting to judge the Open fliers.  Advanced guys please don’t take that the wrong way, I was in Advanced when this was said to me and I understood exactly what was being said.  The judges, just like us flyers, want to perform at their best and to do so they need to see all of the flying possible at all levels offered.  As it stands now, the Open and Advanced flyers are merged together across all four circles.  The flyers randomly pick flying order and the judges, unless they feel the need to remove themselves from a certain flyer (possible family member), randomly pick circle assignments.  It is extremely important that we work Expert into the contest across all four circles just as Open and Advanced is done today.  This way it keeps the random circle placement of both judge and flyer.  All judges will have the opportunity to work all levels of flying.  Both the judge and flyer will benefit from this and only make the contest that much better for everyone involved, judges, flyers, CD, ED, admin, support staff, computer programmer, etc.

Word to the wise, if you separate this out like it used to be you run the chance of losing judges.  That is already one of if not the most difficult tasks of running the nats.  Let’s not make it any harder than it already is.

On another note, preliminary rounds and the number of flyers that move from onto the finals where Advanced and Expert is concerned.  I am reading about a different number being moved onto the finals than the usual 20.  If in fact this is going to be changed to a smaller number this needs to be determined at once and posted at the top of the forums, yes plural, for all who spend the money and time to come and compete.  Everyone needs to know far in advance what they are in store for when planning and spending a large amount of vacation time, and money, to attend the nats.  A % of entrants would be one way to make the cutoff as the number fluctuates year to year.  Whatever method is chosen it needs to be public knowledge for a long time prior to the nats.  Since this goes into affect 2013 it would be good to have that posted by November 2012 on the forums, in SN and Control Line World, along with notice to the AMA to go out in the entrant letter if need be.  This way there is no confusion and a possible past entrant not returning due to what they feel is on the fly changes that make the event less enjoyable.

KT mentioned less rounds if participation is down.  That is a real possibility.  If this is the case then the schedule would need to be looked at as well.  Process on Monday, then fly on Thursday and or Friday.  That break in there is not needed if less rounds are going to be flown.  If the processing day continues to be on Monday with the contest starting on Wednesday for Open then other events should fly these days as well or participation will wane as it makes no sense to process on Monday and sit there until Thursday or Friday.

Just my .02 + a little bit more.  

[Steve Fitton]

We might consider dropping the age classes and having skill classes instead of the age classes, rather than in addition to them.  Award the Walker trophy to the Expert winner.  That would remove the ambiguity.  

What the hell are you playing at?  No, no, no, a thousand times no! Open is Open and the Walker Cup goes to the Open winner.  Your backdoor sarcasm about awarding the Walker Cup to the Expert winner, knowing full well that such a decree would bring on the demand to retire the Walker Cup from the likes of Ted and a host of other Cup winners, is completely uncalled for.  Nothing is more infuriating to somebody who would like their shot at winning the Open Championship than the thinly veiled threats of taking the prize and going home and the hell with everybody else.

If you want to really kill stunt, keep making retarded suggestions like replacing Open with Expert.  Eventually, somebody at AMA will think your sarcastic remarks are real and actually believe thats what you want.  Then when Ted places the Cup in a dusty case in the museum, you can watch Stunt fall on its face.

NONE of these imagined evils will happen if you and the rest of the Open class flyers remain vigilant and say "no" to any attempt to merge Open and Expert.

[Tom Niebuhr]

Randy,
Thanks for the clarification.

[Doug Moon]

.

NONE of these imagined evils will happen if you and the rest of the Open class flyers remain vigilant and say "no" to any attempt to merge Open and Expert.

BOOOOOOOM!!!!

What he said.......

[RandySmith]

Randy,
Thanks for the clarification.

Hi Tom
your welcome, I maybe need to post the passed proposal in a separate thread so people can read it for themselves if they have not done so already

Randy

[Bob Hunt]

Perhaps there are potential Nats judges out there who are intimidated by the prospect of judging Open, but who would gladly volunteer to come and judge Advanced and/or Expert.

There is a lot of the day at the Nats that is not used for competition. Perhaps we could run Advanced and Expert as separate contests - on the L-Pad - later in the day. Or, perhaps let them be the first to fly. After all, if the Open fliers are touted to be the best, then flying later in the day in more wind is appropriate.

The point is, we can work out the logistics if we but try. Let's not condemn an idea just because it is new or different than that which we are used to.  

Later - Bob Hunt

[RandySmith]

Look at what event proliferation has done to CL racing and combat.  All those added diddly events were promoted as increasing participation.  Not having a clear Nats winner decreases my interest in participation.  

Hi Howard

That is not going to happen because of this.  I heard  much the same stuff when we added Advanced.

We have added 3 of the PAMPA skill classes to our schedule, it did nothing to kill off stunt, it only bought in more people and more people flying planes at our NATs
We added Old Time, this added more numbers of people flying the NATs
we Added  Classic , this did nothing but add to the numbers of people flying

If we listened to the logic of never adding anything the we would need to DO AWAY  with all these other events, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, OLD TIME, Classic, etc  and only run event 322, cause after all the NATs is **only** about the walker Cup winner and his crowning,  and no one else has a place there unless they can win the Trophy and National Championship in 322

All PAMPA skill class events are a separate contest from 322 event (Open, JR. , Sr.)

Randy

[Howard Rush]

What the hell are you playing at?  No, no, no, a thousand times no! Open is Open and the Walker Cup goes to the Open winner.  Your backdoor sarcasm about awarding the Walker Cup to the Expert winner, knowing full well that such a decree would bring on the demand to retire the Walker Cup from the likes of Ted and a host of other Cup winners, is completely uncalled for.  Nothing is more infuriating to somebody who would like their shot at winning the Open Championship than the thinly veiled threats of taking the prize and going home and the hell with everybody else.

If you want to really kill stunt, keep making retarded suggestions like replacing Open with Expert.  Eventually, somebody at AMA will think your sarcastic remarks are real and actually believe thats what you want.  Then when Ted places the Cup in a dusty case in the museum, you can watch Stunt fall on its face.

NONE of these imagined evils will happen if you and the rest of the Open class flyers remain vigilant and say "no" to any attempt to merge Open and Expert.

I was actually being serious.  I like things as they are, but I prefer replacement to addition.  I don't think anybody wants to retire the Walker trophy

[Trostle]

(Clip)

Word to the wise, if you separate this out like it used to be you run the chance of losing judges.  That is already one of if not the most difficult tasks of running the nats.  Let’s not make it any harder than it already is.

KT mentioned less rounds if participation is down.  That is a real possibility.

(Clip)  

Doug,

By the way, CONGRATULATIONS!!

Having the Expert event at the Nats will not make it any more difficult to recruit judges.  It is difficult now, it will be difficult in the future.  I have been on both sides of that fence and to me, it does not make any difference what circle I am judging on.  If I volunteer to judge, I will go where the ED thinks I will do the most good, whatever his criteria is.

I do not think I ever said that there would be less rounds using this new format.  To the contrary, the outline that Randy and I developed was careful to preserve the same number of rounds for anyone who entered either Open (qualification rounds, semi-finals and finals) or either the Expert and Advanced (qualifications and finals).  In all cases, there would still be two days of qualifying rounds which is the hallmark of the format evolved by PAMA so that a competitor who has worked for a year to prepare for the Nats can participate, have 4 official flights over two days rather than in the old days where the whole experience would often be one 8 minute flight on one day, subject to weather, luck of the draw, mechanical problems or whatever.  This is preserved and should be with the Expert addition proposal.

What is in the outline is that there would only be 10 Expert finalists and 10 Advanced finalists.  It makes little sense, as was the case this year, to take 20 Advanced finalists from fewer than 24 entries.  Even with 10 finalists, the placings for those below 10th place will still be determined just as the placings are determined now for those in 21st and below. So there will still be bragging rights for those who think it is important to know they placed 13th instead of 15th.  And I respect that.  It is just we do not need to drag the judges and officials through those additional flight to determine those positions when essentially they have already been determined.

Keith

[Doug Moon]

 Or, perhaps let them be the first to fly. After all, if the Open fliers are touted to be the best, then flying later in the day in more wind is appropriate.

wind.....and rain....and mist...and??  

That is how it works now, Adv guys are up first, then Open guys.  Now we would have Adv, Exp, then Open. Seems pretty simple to me.  

There really isnt much need to change it all around make it separate and re-engineer what is already working very well.

I would wager Adv might go down a little bit first few years while many move to Exp just like they fly locally. So the load would be similar to what it is now.  

[Doug Moon]

I don't think anybody wants to retire the Walker trophy

Well, then you havent seen the posts by some, pretty well regarded individuals and for good reason, who say if the BOM goes then so does the Walker Trophy.

[Doug Moon]

Hey Bob,

I still have your can of No Touch.  I meant to get it back to you before we left.  Sorry about that.  I get you another one next year.

Thanks again.

Doug

[Howard Rush]

I maybe need to post the passed proposal in a separate thread so people can read it for themselves if they have not done so already

Good idea.  I haven't seen the fine print.  

[Trostle]

We might consider dropping the age classes and having skill classes instead of the age classes, rather than in addition to them.  Award the Walker trophy to the Expert winner.  That would remove the ambiguity.  

Why?  What ambiguity?

[Howard Rush]

Well, then you havent seen the posts by some, pretty well regarded individuals and for good reason, who say if the BOM goes then so does the Walker Trophy.

Those may be the sarcastic ones.  I may have made them; I don't keep track.  Maybe Bill Lee is right: I need to use smileys, but I hate to taint serious Jive Combat Team pronouncements with smileys.

[Bob Hunt]

Hey Bob,

I still have your can of No Touch.  I meant to get it back to you before we left.  Sorry about that.  I get you another one next year.

Thanks again.

Doug

Hi Doug:

Please keep it along with my most profound congratulations! It was the neatest thing I've seen yet to witness you and your brother, Steve, and Bob Gieseke posing together for photos afterwards. Priceless!

Well done my friend - Bob Hunt

[Doug Moon]

Doug,

By the way, CONGRATULATIONS!!

Thanks!  

I do not think I ever said that there would be less rounds using this new format.  To the contrary, the outline that Randy and I developed was careful to preserve the same number of rounds for anyone who entered either Open (qualification rounds, semi-finals and finals) or either the Expert and Advanced (qualifications and finals).  In all cases, there would still be two days of qualifying rounds which is the hallmark of the format evolved by PAMA so that a competitor who has worked for a year to prepare for the Nats can participate, have 4 official flights over two days rather than in the old days where the whole experience would often be one 8 minute flight on one day, subject to weather, luck of the draw, mechanical problems or whatever.  This is preserved and should be with the Expert addition proposal.

Good deal!

What is in the outline is that there would only be 10 Expert finalists and 10 Advanced finalists.  It makes little sense, as was the case this year, to take 20 Advanced finalists from fewer than 24 entries.  Even with 10 finalists, the placings for those below 10th place will still be determined just as the placings are determined now for those in 21st and below. So there will still be bragging rights for those who think it is important to know they placed 13th instead of 15th.  And I respect that.  It is just we do not need to drag the judges and officials through those additional flight to determine those positions when essentially they have already been determined.

Keith

This is what I was talking about.  This would need to be posted pretty early on so everyone involved would know what they are getting into.  It has been the top 20 for many years.  It wouldn’t be good for someone to feel blindsided by a change like this.  This being posted in long threads with many different inner topics will certainly be missed by some.  Once it is nailed down a simple sticky at the top of the forums and a post in SN and CLW concerning format is all that is needed.

[RandySmith]

This is what I was talking about.  This would need to be posted pretty early on so everyone involved would know what they are getting into.  It has been the top 20 for many years.  It wouldn’t be good for someone to feel blindsided by a change like this.  This being posted in long threads with many different inner topics will certainly be missed by some.  Once it is nailed down a simple sticky at the top of the forums and a post in SN and CLW concerning format is all that is needed.



Has already been done, and all who look will see this as it will be made public for all to see


Randy

[Trostle]

Look at what event proliferation has done to CL racing and combat.  All those added diddly events were promoted as increasing participation.  Not having a clear Nats winner decreases my interest in participation. 

Where is it shown that adding Expert to the schedule at the Nats is "Event Proliferation"?  The Expert skill class is already an established official event and has been for decates.   Having Expert at the Nats will not require a new type of model to be built (as happens when new events are incorporated in other CL activities).  In fact, having Expert at the Nats will allow more models to be flown at the Nats than now being restricted by the Open BOM requirement.  Where Event Proliferation has perhaps hindered other events, it is because there became a proliferation of different rules, requiring different airplanes, different standards, different everything, to where depending on the part of the country, contests would be held where many airplanes built for something similar could not be flown.  That has not ever happened in CLPA, even when the Skill classes were incorporated as unofficial events (as referred to by PAMPA skill classes) to now that Skill classes are official AMA events.    And if anything, incorporating skill classes to our CLPA rules has primarily been responsible for the continued level of activity our event enjoys compared to any other CL event which has suffered from Event Proliferation.

Howard, I know that you know that Expert is already an official event.  Adding it to the Nats format is analogoous to adding Advanced to the Nats format.  It when the skill classes were added to the Nats, stunt entry levels increased and stunt still remains the best attended Nats CL event.

Your sky is falling warnings that adding Expert to the Nats format is Event Proliferation and will decrease participation just do not make sense.

Keith

[Douglas Ames]

Could I say something that is glaringly obvious as an observer outside the circle? (I don't compete)

Why not add EXPERT and declare a PAMPA EXPERT National Champion in addition to the AMA OPEN National Champion?

Create a new trophy - "The Aldrich Cup" for the PAMPA Champ. Would GMA turn over in his grave if you did that?
 
The Walker Cup is a separate deal. EXPERT would NOT be eligible for the flyoff.

AMA would be BOM, PAMPA - NO-BOM. Both would have Appearance Points.

Flame me if you like   

[Howard Rush]

Why not add EXPERT and declare a PAMPA EXPERT National Champion in addition to the AMA OPEN National Champion?

That's what will happen.

[Howard Rush]

Where is it shown that adding Expert to the schedule at the Nats is "Event Proliferation"?  The Expert skill class is already an established official event and has been for decates.   Having Expert at the Nats will not require a new type of model to be built (as happens when new events are incorporated in other CL activities).  In fact, having Expert at the Nats will allow more models to be flown at the Nats than now being restricted by the Open BOM requirement. 

It does involve different airplanes and different rules, yet one cannot fly both.  It's sorta in between an added skill class and event proliferation. 

Precisely because we all know Expert as the top class from those decades, you'll have the ambiguity.  See Douglas's post above; I told you so.

[RandySmith]

The TOP Class  is  OPEN, and always will be, The fact that OPEN is the  ONLY way to the  Walker Cup , and OPEN requires full modelers skills makes this the most desired event for the pilot wanting to prove himself against the  very best of the best.  Expert will  NEVER  get to fly  for the most prestigious trophy in PA  period!!

Randy

[dirty dan]

Those may be the sarcastic ones.  I may have made them; I don't keep track.  Maybe Bill Lee is right: I need to use smileys, but I hate to taint serious Jive Combat Team pronouncements with smileys.

No, no, no! Don't crack, don't bend! Smileys are merely a crutch for those who can't write in accomodating those who can't read.

PTG may have used smileys; I'm not sure.  But you and I know he doesn't share our lofty standards.

So hold that line...

Dan

[RandySmith]

The average  age of  PAMPA  members is around 70 years  old,
People ..... we need  to do as much as we can, within reason , to help keep membership to grow on the upside.  If we fail in this, all of this argueing will be a moot point !

Randy

[Steve Helmick]

Due to finances, I haven't been to a Nats in about 10 years. While adding Expert sounds good at first glance, I feel that this has been railroaded in. It sounds like the event is being watered down. It is also the start of the end of appearance points going out the back door.

The Nats is very special having a wonderful display of beautiful airplanes in one place at one time. I hope that I am wrong, but this could be start of the end for this. People have argued about appearance to the point that we are sick, but Brett has been correct in saying that the Nats is about crowning a National Champion and should demand the TOTAL package.

Many will say that you will still have Concours. The reality is that if you don't have appearance points in "Expert", how many people will really present their airplanes in one hall, if they don't feel they will be considered for Concours?  5 or 10 at best?

That wonderful display of airplanes will be gone.

Tom, I think you're wrong on this. There are AP's for Intermediate, Advanced and Expert, just as for JSO. The only ones that won't get AP's will be those flying ARF's, ARC's, and new or old planes sold or given to the flier. I'm not a NATS guy, but as I understand it, Advanced and JSO planes are currently all judged together, and Intermediate planes (that are BOM legal) are judged for AP's on the circle.  Classic entries? Expert planes that are BOM legit will join them. The Advanced and Expert planes that are not BOM legit will not/should not be there. 

Having not been there, and with no plans to go, I would personally choose to enter Open over Expert. Of course, I'm not an Expert flier locally, and I don't have a BOM legal plane, but if I was an Expert, and had a BOM plane, I'd enter Open. It looks to me like the Expert class will be small, and full of high dollar ARF's. I'd rather finish 21st in Open than 6th in Expert, and I don't think that would be an unusual viewpoint.  Steve 

 

[RandySmith]

Tom, I think you're wrong on this. There are AP's for Intermediate, Advanced and Expert, just as for JSO. The only ones that won't get AP's will be those flying ARF's, ARC's, and new or old planes sold or given to the flier. I'm not a NATS guy, but as I understand it, Advanced and JSO planes are currently all judged together, and Intermediate planes (that are BOM legal) are judged for AP's on the circle.  Classic entries? Expert planes that are BOM legit will join them. The Advanced and Expert planes that are not BOM legit will not/should not be there.  

Having not been there, and with no plans to go, I would personally choose to enter Open over Expert. Of course, I'm not an Expert flier locally, and I don't have a BOM legal plane, but if I was an Expert, and had a BOM plane, I'd enter Open. It looks to me like the Expert class will be small, and full of high dollar ARF's. I'd rather finish 21st in Open than 6th in Expert, and I don't think that would be an unusual viewpoint.   Steve  

 

Hi Steve

This is how it works, anyone entering official NATs events such as  322 (jr , sr open)  and advanced, and now expert  will be required to bring their planes to processing and Apperance judging, they will be weighed and judged, one that do NOT meet the BOM rule will be with all of the other planes, but will be set in the last row.
Again this will change Nothing about this process, all of the planes will still be in the same room for APs  and processing, just as they are now.

Regards
Randy

[Steve Helmick]

Thanks for the explaination, Randy. To tell the truth, the term "processing" for stunt models kinda makes me giggle, after 15 years of flying FAI FF, where everything is weighed...and measured (in French), projected areas calculated, and each part stamped and stickered! Is there anything to "processing" a stunt model, other than weighing? I'd bet that nobody is going to measure the engine size, and of course, the line size will have to be checked by the pit boss...if it is checked at all. Do fliers hafta bring their lines to "processing" to be measured 4 length and diameter?   Steve

  

[Bob Reeves]

I'm a nobody with my only claim to fame winning Advanced in 2011 at Brodaks with a 4 stroke but I do have an opinion. 

I think adding Expert to the NATS schedule is a fantastic idea and am happy to see it pass. I believe it will increase attendance and all the negative effects some are touting will not come to pass. As has been said it isn't like anyone has to build a special airplane or buy a special engine, heck you can fly stunt with a borrowed carrier airplane or combat ship if you are brave enough.

[Ted Fancher]

Hi Brett,

I usually agree with your take on things, but I don't understand how the number of Open fliers will be so greatly reduced.  I believe that the guys in Open now are flying against the best (each other) with the dream of a Walker Trophy in their future, they are competitors.

Maybe I am wrong and America is no longer teeming with competitors, but I don't think so.  I truly believe that Open will stay about the same number but there will be enough Expert entries to make it viable, also.

Bill

Hi Bill,

What do you believe will be the incentive for high quality fliers to enter Expert instead of Open?

Ted

[Howard Rush]

I read "Expert Skill Class will be ran at the 2013 NATs", as you so eloquently put it.  I see unsupported sales pitch, but few details. 

[RC Storick]

Hi Bill,
What do you believe will be the incentive for high quality fliers to enter Expert instead of Open?
Ted

ability to fly Sharks and other RTF airplanes.

[Trostle]

Hi Bill,

What do you believe will be the incentive for high quality fliers to enter Expert instead of Open?

Ted

Hi Ted,

No, I am not Bill, but I have my own take on an answer to your question.  Actually, a real "high quality flier" (whatever that is but I think I understand what you are trying to say) will actually have no "incentive" to enter Expert instead of Open.  Some of those "high quality fliers" will, or just might, want to fly Expert instead of Advanced as many "local Expert high quality fliers" now choose to enter Advanced rather than Open at the Nats.  Will there be a lot of individuals that somehow fall in these categories? I really doubt it. Will we see the fences being torn down by the onslaught of some category of "high quality fliers to fly at our Nats?  I doubt it, but we will see some people who, for whatever reason, just might want to choose to fly Expert instead of Open.  Some of these will be from foreign contries who do not build their own models.  Some will be those who choose to bring their purchased machine to be able to compete with other self professed Experts.  Will there be a tremendous increase in total entries, I doubt it, but I will wager a steak dinner for you and Shareen that there will be an increase if we will ever be able to measure that number and normalize it for the effect of the economy and gas prices on total entry.

Keith

[Trostle]

From Steve Ames:  Why not add EXPERT and declare a PAMPA EXPERT National Champion in addition to the AMA OPEN National Champion?

Howard's response:

That's what will happen.

So my question to Howard is "So What?"  Every year now, we have a "National Beginner Champion", a "National Intermediate Champion", and a "National Advanced Champion"  So what is being proposed is that there will be a "National Open Champion".  That in no way diminishes one of the primary purposes of the Nationals which is to determine the National Stunt Champion as the winner of the flyoff between the Junior and Senior and Open Champions. 

And let's not forget that at the Nationals there is a Classic National Champion and an OTS National Champion.  We have been living with this situation for a number of years.  Funny, nobody has ever claimed that this number of events at the Nats is proliferation and is harmful to our event.  But woe is me if we add Expert to the schedule, THAT IS REAL PROLIFERATION and the sky will fall.

Keith

[Randy Powell]

I suppose we could go full balkanization. 4 Pampa classes, junior, senior, open, a Northeast Nats, A southwest Nats, etc. Look what it's done for Boxing.

[Trostle]

I read "Expert Skill Class will be ran at the 2013 NATs", as you so eloquently put it.  I see unsupported sales pitch, but few details. 

Gee Howard, what are you looking for?   The proposal as submitted to the PAMPA EC is posted at the beginning of this section.  In case you missed it, this matter was discussed by the PAMPA EC at their annual Nats meetig and they approved it by a vote of 10 to 1.  Except for a few vocal naysayers on this forum,  some individuals and the PAMPA EC apparently recognize some merit to the idea.  Granted, there will have to be some adjustments to the very clever computer programs that have been generated to support the current Nats process.  I would like to think that the very clever guru (which I am not) who generated those very clever computer programs would be able to adjust the programs that in reality makes a subdivsion of a group of fliers with judge assignments and another scoreboard.  Yes, from one perspective, there is an additional administrative burden on the organizers/officials.   But the Nats are not for the pleasure of the organizers/officials. The Nats is the responsibility of PAMPA to organize and administer.  And PAMPA has chosen to add Expert to the Nats schedule.

Adding Expert to the Nats schedule will not:

1.  Hasten the elimination of the BOM rule

2.  Be the demise of the Walker Cup

3.  Cause the elimination of the Open event at the Nats

4.  Destroy the stunt event because of proliferation

[Trostle]

Could I say something that is glaringly obvious as an observer outside the circle? (I don't compete)

(Clip)

Create a new trophy - "The Aldrich Cup" for the PAMPA Champ. Would GMA turn over in his grave if you did that?

(Clip)
 

There already is an Aldrich Cup.  It was made from one of George's Nats trophies.  Does anybody know what happened to it.

Also, there was a Rene Mechen Cup to commemorate a real gentlement of this event.  Does anybody know what happened to that one?


I think one was for the Sr winner and the other was for the Advanced winner to be awarded as perpetual trophies.


Keith

[Trostle]

Well, then you havent seen the posts by some, pretty well regarded individuals and for good reason, who say if the BOM goes then so does the Walker Trophy.

Doug,

Some of this was discussed last week when I think you were pretty busy.  

For one thing, we have discussed that as long as we have a BOM rule, there will be National Stunt Champion as the winner of the Walker Cup.  Now, if the BOM rule is eliminated for whatever reason, then I think there is a consensus that the Walker Cup should be retired and placed on permanent display in the AMA museum.  (The AMA owns the Walker Cup anyway.)  If that time ever comes and there is still a Nats Stunt event (without BOM) then the movers and shakers of PAMPA at that time will be able to make a decision if there should be some kind of perpetual trophy to represent what will then be called the National Stunt Champion.  It will not carry the same connotation or meaning that the Walker Cup has for many of us now.  I do not see that happening in the near future.

Now, as the current generation of stunt competitors pass, we may see the elimination of the BOM rule.  There have been any number of attempts to do so in the past by a relatively small but very vocal minority.  But, the BOM rule has survived, and there will still be a BOM requirement in our rulebook for at least the next 2 1/2 years.

There are predictions of doom that adding Expert to the Nats will hasten the demise of the BOM rule and correspondingly the elimination of the Open event as we know it at the Nats.  Adding Expert will have no more effect on the BOM rule or the Open event than when skill classes were added to the Nats schedule over 30 years ago.  If someone can prove otherwise, then I would like to see how or why.  Whether or not the BOM rule survives in the future will have nothing to do with having Expert scheduled at the Nats.

Keith

[Bill Little]

Hi Bill,

What do you believe will be the incentive for high quality fliers to enter Expert instead of Open?

Ted

Hi Ted,

I don't think that the very high quality fliers WILL enter Expert with but a few exceptions.  Those exceptions possibly being Foreign competitors who fly "bought" models yet want to experience our NATS.  And maybe a few really good US pilots who do not build their own. 

I believe that the majority of fliers who enter Expert will be local experts, many of which have historically entered Advanced at the NATS because they know they would not be competitive in Open.  A flier who is moving up the ladder and just landed in Expert on the local scene will have a place to fly at the NATS.

Again, and it is my opinion only, I don't believe that Open will be harmed at the NATS.

Bill

[RC Storick]

Ill just keep paying my $25.00 per flight till I make top 20. Stuff happens