Walker Cup.....

[decamara]

Can someone who was at the PAMPA meeting in Muncie please explain possible changes to the Walker cup flyoff rulings?

I thought I read something on the AMA site alluding to something with Expert class?




Thanks


Doc

[Brett Buck]

Can someone who was at the PAMPA meeting in Muncie please explain possible changes to the Walker cup flyoff rulings?

I thought I read something on the AMA site alluding to something with Expert class?

  I think it means that we are, very unfortunately, adopting Randy's proposal to add Expert. The statement in NATS News merely states that Expert winners will not fly in the Walker Cup.

   Of course, this means that in a few years, we will ONLY be flying expert and even next year, there might as well not be any qualifying rounds (since there won't be enough entrants to warrant it). I assume we will continue doing it for the sake of ritual for a while. oo.

    Brett

[Trostle]

 I think it means that we are, very unfortunately, adopting Randy's proposal to add Expert. The statement in NATS News merely states that Expert winners will not fly in the Walker Cup.

   Of course, this means that in a few years, we will ONLY be flying expert and even next year, there might as well not be any qualifying rounds (since there won't be enough entrants to warrant it). I assume we will continue doing it for the sake of ritual for a while. oo.

    Brett

And then there is the option of changing the format somewhat and have a fewer number of qualifiers regardless of the event, Open, Advanced and Expert.  Indeed, it makes little sense to have 20 qualifiers if there are only 30 entrants in the event.  So, why not pare down the number of qualifiers, the number being some function of the total number of entrants in that event?  It would seem that there would not need to be more quallfiers than say 33 to 50% of the total entry in that event.  In the past, there have been as few as 10 qualifiers for the finals with as many as 30 or 40 total entries.  Then, when the number of qualifiers gets to a lower number, there probably would not need to have the semifinals either.  It would still be a function of the total entry.  It would be an interesting correlation packge to generate.  

It is my understanding that if Expert is to be run at the Nats together with Open and Advanced, that indeed the number of qualifiers in any of those events is to be taken into consideration.  However, also part of my understanding, the format would still provide for each contestant their two days and four flights in the sun, as has been done now for a number of years.   That is one of the good things about the format that has evolved since PAMPA took responsibility for organizing/running the Nats.  Before PAMPA and the current format, any contestant would come to the Nats and only have a single best flight of two official flights to determine if he could advance to a finals round.  Because of weather and/or equipment problems/and/or "luck of the draw", that contestant's Nats experience that he has worked for a year could essentially become only one 8 minute flight.  Adding Expert to the schedule will not change the process which provides for two days of qualfying.

Keith

[proparc]

I am a little embarassed but, could someone please fill me in on this Expert\Open thing.

[Trostle]

I am a little embarassed but, could someone please fill me in on this Expert\Open thing.

I hope I understand your question.

The rules for CLPA provide for 5 events.  Event 322 is for the Junior, Senor and Open categories established 60 or more years ago and the Builder of the Model (BOM) rule applies.  The pattern and some rules have been "refined" over those years.

The Skill classes (events 323, 324, 325 and 326 - Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and Expert) became official AMA events sometime in the late 70's or early 80's.  The pattern and basic rules are the same as for Event 322 except the contestant does not need to be the BOM, however appearance points will not be awarded.  The Skill class rules do provide for appearance points if the contestant is the BOM.  There is no BOM or appearance points for Beginner. 

Essentially, there is only one contest held each year for Event 322, and that is the Nats.  At the Nats, a Junior Champion is determined, as are the Senior and Open Champions.  These three category Champions have a flyoff to determine the National Stunt Champion as the winner of the Walker Cup.

Some time in the 70's, the skill classes were run at the Nats as unofficial events.  At some later time, the Advanced category, (Event 325) was added to the Nats schedule after the skill classes themselves became official AMA rulebook events.  (For the record, Beginner and Advanced are run as unofficial vents at the Nats.  This just means that the AMA does not support those events in their official schedule.)

PAMPA is now considering a proposal to add Expert to the official Nats schedule in the future.  This would be scheduled on the same days and same circles as the current schedule for the Open and Advanced events.  This would allow expert level pilots who do not build their own airplanes, including those from other countries, to compete at the Nats who otherwise would not do so.  The proposal is clear that just as the Advanced pilots do not compete for the Walker Cup, neither would the Expert pilots compete for the Walker Cup.

Keith

[proparc]

Thanks. It appears to allow the FAI guys to get in the game, thereby increasing participation at the Nats.

[Bill Little]

  I think it means that we are, very unfortunately, adopting Randy's proposal to add Expert. The statement in NATS News merely states that Expert winners will not fly in the Walker Cup.

   Of course, this means that in a few years, we will ONLY be flying expert and even next year, there might as well not be any qualifying rounds (since there won't be enough entrants to warrant it). I assume we will continue doing it for the sake of ritual for a while. oo.

    Brett

Hi Brett,

I usually agree with your take on things, but I don't understand how the number of Open fliers will be so greatly reduced.  I believe that the guys in Open now are flying against the best (each other) with the dream of a Walker Trophy in their future, they are competitors.

Maybe I am wrong and America is no longer teeming with competitors, but I don't think so.  I truly believe that Open will stay about the same number but there will be enough Expert entries to make it viable, also.

Bill

[proparc]

As long as it doesn't effect my strategy of sneaking into Beginner at the Nats, it's fine with me.

[RandySmith]

Can someone who was at the PAMPA meeting in Muncie please explain possible changes to the Walker cup flyoff rulings?

I thought I read something on the AMA site alluding to something with Expert class?




Thanks


Doc

Hi

It means zero, the Walker Cup will NOT be affected in any way at all
Expert is a PAMPA skill class, 322 which includes OPEN , JR , and SR  is a separate event, NO Skill classes ever get to fly for the Walker cup.

Regards
Randy

[john e. holliday]

And the guys currently flying Advanced at the NATS that are expert flyers will now have their event to fly.   

[RandySmith]

Hi All
Below is the proposal to add Expert Skill class to the NATs, it passed overwhelmingly  at the PAMPA meeting
The gloom and doom scenario Brett states will not happen:


To The PAMPA EC
 Subject: Proposal to add the final skill class of Expert to the NATs schedule.
The main reason for PAMPA’s existence is to promote aerobatic C/L flying and increase the numbers of pilots doing so, With that in mind:
 We propose adding Expert to the NATs in C/L Precision Aerobatics. This will facilitate making our event more inclusive, and could increase participation, and help grow numbers of new pilots, or pilots that for BOM and other reasons, cannot fly event 322. This will include many people  that are expert pilots not advanced  , but are also not quite ready to go to OPEN, as it is now they have no choice. Adding Expert will extend that choice to them. It will give a place for many  U.S and  other foreign pilots that would travel to the U.S for our NATs, but have RTFs or ARFs to travel with ,or have bought or borrowed planes.
This proposal is designed to help increase the number of pilots flying Control Line Aerobatics, without affecting the tradition of the 322 events , (322 is Open, Jr. and Sr.) and the tradition of picking the best modeler/pilot in the U.S as the National Stunt Champion.  
Every PAMPA skill class we have added so far has turned into a great way to help increase the numbers of new pilots enjoying the NATs experience. Expert will be another feeder event for Open.
This will also help the Advanced class by allowing Advanced flyers to compete without the local Experts that far too often, now fly in that class at the Nats.
 This will not affect event 322 in Jr. Sr. or Open. The Expert class is a Skill class event, and will not fly in any flyoff with the 322 event. Just as Advanced flyer do not now or ever.
 The Expert event can be run very easily with the circles and manpower we use now, by simply adding them to the 2 qualifying circles we use for the Advanced class. Pick 10 qualifying pilots for Advanced and 10 For Expert. Their respective scores would simply be kept separate on the scoreboards. Fly off for the Expert and Advanced finals on 2 circles and use the other 2 circles for the Open Finals.
 This is not intended to affect , or to do away with the BOM in any shape form or fashion, in any event, be it Skill classes or 322. The Non-mandatory BOM rule for skill classes would still apply where non-BOM models can be flown but will not receive appearance points.
Remember ,PAMPA’s Job 1 and main reason to exist is to get more people flying this event, This is the ONLY proposal I have seen , in a long time, that has a good chance at increasing the numbers of pilots flying the US NATs in C/L Precision Aerobatics
 EXPERT is already an official event, and is in the rulebook so it takes no rule change, all we need do is just run it.
 Sincerely
 Randy Smith and Keith Trostle

This proposal has zero effect on any Flyoff for any other Event , 322 included.
 This will help in many other ways, it will help Clear the Advanced Skill Class of the local, and other   EXPERTS that fly there now.
It will take NO more personnel to do this, as it can be run inside the 4 circles we use now.
 It will help the Intermediates in moving up to a class that is full of only Advanced flyers.
 It will let other Flyers from outside the US come and have a Skill Class to fly, as well as anyone else in the US that buys or for whatever reason has a plane he did not build.
It will also help with the large gap that exist between the Advanced class and qualifying to fly Open 322
 It also may help relieve a little bit of the OPEN BOM wars

[Mike Palko]

Are competitors who have flown Open in the recent past allowed to "drop down" a class and fly Expert?

Mike

[PJ Rowland]

" It will let other Flyers from outside the US come and have a Skill Class to fly, as well as anyone else in the US that buys or for whatever reason has a plane he did not build. "

Thats the part of Rule I like - Beyond that I doubt it will effect Open that much. Your not going to have many of the current Top 20 guys in Open drop down to expert.

Id be surprised anyway..

At the end of the day its about participation & numbers.

[Brett Buck]

Hi Brett,

I usually agree with your take on things, but I don't understand how the number of Open fliers will be so greatly reduced.  I believe that the guys in Open now are flying against the best (each other) with the dream of a Walker Trophy in their future, they are competitors.

Maybe I am wrong and America is no longer teeming with competitors, but I don't think so.  I truly believe that Open will stay about the same number but there will be enough Expert entries to make it viable, also.

  About a third to half the current field will likely fly expert, if not the first year, the second or third. There may be 5-10 more entrants total. I assume that aggressive promotion will get it pretty good next year, then it will fall off again.

   It's not about how many people are flying. It's how many that can make it to the NATs, which is already more-or-less drawing 90% of the midwest group anyway. It's not likely to add anyone from larger-participation regions.

  I could be wrong, I guess we will see.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

It means zero, the Walker Cup will NOT be affected in any way at all
Expert is a PAMPA skill class, 322 which includes OPEN , JR , and SR  is a separate event, NO Skill classes ever get to fly for the Walker cup.

    I think that was clear for anyone who knew about it already from the discussion here and off-line.  It may not have been entirely clear from the NATS News if you didn't already know what the proposal was.

     As before, you can keep repeating it, and when Open is dropped, we can both argue that the Walker Trophy be retired. But neither you nor I have any control over that and there will be a whole lot of people (i.e the entire, now highly-energized anti-BOM crowd) arguing the other way.

   I think this is far too big a risk to take, but I lost that argument, apparently.

    Brett

[Trostle]

(Clip)

     As before, you can keep repeating it, and when Open is dropped, we can both argue that the Walker Trophy be retired. But neither you nor I have any control over that and there will be a whole lot of people (i.e the entire, now highly-energized anti-BOM crowd) arguing the other way.

   I think this is far too big a risk to take, but I lost that argument, apparently.

    Brett

Brett,

We have had this discussion before.  You have made your point several times here, so I am going to respond.  I cannot understand your belief that adding Expert to the Nats schedule will in any way threaten the Open event.  As long as the Walker Cup is the ultimate prize, there will be an Open event at the Nats and it will be as meaningful and  hotly contested, at least in the forseeable future as it has been for the past 50+ years.  Now what happens when the current generations of stunt fliers are long gone, what happens to this event will be in the hands of those who inherit this magnificent event from us.  I cannot see in any way that having Expert on the Nats scheudle will diminish the importance of the Walker Cup.

Now, if we loose the BOM rule in the future, then what we do with the Walker Cup will be an entirely different question.  On this point, there are no proposals in this rules change cycle to eliminate the BOM rule.  There are some proposals to change it, but not to eliminate it.  So we will have some form of a BOM rule, if not the same one, for at least the next 2 1/2 years.

Keith

[Douglas Ames]

I am a little embarassed but, could someone please fill me in on this Expert\Open thing.

I'm glad you asked that too.
I always thought Expert was a PAMPA classification.
Not a member of PAMPA, never been to the Nats.

Note: Keith T. answered this question very well. Thanx!

[Doug Knoyle]

Are competitors who have flown Open in the recent past allowed to "drop down" a class and fly Expert?

Mike

Until I saw this question, I would want to fly both Expert and Open (no, I'm not that good yet).  If Open is not a skill class, then why not?

If I spend the time and effort to get to Muncie I'm going to fly everything the scheduling allows.  I would want to fly as much as possible.  Also, sounds like an opportunity to fly against some international bros who I probably will never get to fly against.  

....AND how prestigious will the Walker Cup be when "Yea, but Mr Walker Cup Winner didn't fly against out of no-where Hot-Shot Expert Dude - if they only would have been able to fly against each other with the same judges ..."

Randy and Keith have a good argument, but only as long as an Open flyer can fly Expert as well.

[Derek Barry]

Until I saw this question, I would want to fly both Expert and Open (no, I'm not that good yet).  If Open is not a skill class, then why not?

If I spend the time and effort to get to Muncie I'm going to fly everything the scheduling allows.  I would want to fly as much as possible.  Also, sounds like an opportunity to fly against some international bros who I probably will never get to fly against.  

....AND how prestigious will the Walker Cup be when "Yea, but Mr Walker Cup Winner didn't fly against out of no-where Hot-Shot Expert Dude - if they only would have been able to fly against each other with the same judges ..."

Randy and Keith have a good argument, but only as long as an Open flyer can fly Expert as well.

You cant fly Advanced and Open at the same Nats so it is silly to think you could fly Expert and Open. I would be difficult to fly two events at the same time on the same day too.

You will have a choice: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, OR Open (if you are over 19) You cant fly more than one though.

Derek

[Brett Buck]

You cant fly Advanced and Open at the same Nats so it is silly to think you could fly Expert and Open. I would be difficult to fly two events at the same time on the same day too.

   Yes, that can certainly be taken care of but it needs  to be explicitly stated in the contest rules as a deviation (like it is for Advanced). Otherwise, we will be back in the same situation we were in 2005, where several people entered Advanced AND Open. There's nothing in the rule book preventing that, it's two separate events, so you have to state it up front.

   Brett

[Dennis Toth]

Not sure why a contestant could not fly open, senior or junior and either advanced or expert at the NATs. To fly the event you must meet the entry requirements - Open - 19 years old and above, Senior between 15 and 18, Junior under 15. Now advance and expert are more subjective and based on a standing in the flying community and you declare you status.

I could see not being able to fly expert and advance but the AMA OSJ are simply age based nothing else. I can see were the contestant needs to be at the circle when called, no "drop me to the end" but if you pay your money and make the call to the line you fly. What's the problem?

Best,       DennisT

[Trostle]

Not sure why a contestant could not fly open, senior or junior and either advanced or expert at the NATs.

(Clip

...but if you pay your money and make the call to the line you fly. What's the problem?

(Clip)

Best,       DennisT

Actually, there is not a problem.  There is nothing in the rules to prevent that.  However, most who think this thing through, other than perhaps being able to do it, it is meaningless to do so.  However, following the experience where several entered both Advanced and Open a few years ago, there has been a statement on the AMA Nats entry blank that one cannot enter in both.  And the AMA rulebook for the Nats procedures allow for such restrictions.  There can be no argument here if that is the way the organizers/managers (PAMPA) chooses to do so.

The only thing that entering more than one category (as in Open and Advanced, then maybe in the future having Expert in the mix) is to serve some self promoting ambition to fly several events just because it was permitted at the time.  It adds unnecesary workload by extra flights having to be judged and extra workload on the part of tabulation and extends the day for all who are participating for no reason other than for some self agrandizement.

In short, it is not allowed.  And when it was allowed, albeit mistakenly, it was viewed upon dimly by most who witnessed it being done.  For one thing, the judges certainly did not appreciate it. 

Keith

[Trostle]

(Clip)

Randy and Keith have a good argument, but only as long as an Open flyer can fly Expert as well.

If a pilot chooses to fly Open, he will not be allowed to fly in the Expert category. Some have expressed some concern about an expert flier outclassing an open flier with this arrangement.  Yes, it is possible that an Expert Pilot might post a higher score than the Open pilots.  But so what?  The Open event is a different contest than the Expert contest.  Different circles, different judges, different scores.  It is no different than seeing a pilot win Open at the Nats with an average score of 550, then a month later hearing about another pilot that scored 605 points at another contest.  There is no doubt that some very capable pilots will fly in Expert flying very competive patterns.  But that does not diminish the achievement of the pilot who entered and wins the Open event, making him eligible to fly for the Walker Cup as the National Stunt Champion.

Keith

[Bill Little]

HI Keith,

I believe the lure of being THE National Champion and winning the Walker Trophy will bring the very best to fly Open.

I believe the majority of those that choose to fly Expert will be those who are "local" Experts from many areas who KNOW they will have no chance in Open.  Some of these have entered Advanced in the past.  We all know that there is a large disparity between different areas and the number of true Experts across the country.  To me, OPEN is the "Masters" category, the best of the best.

Bill

[proparc]

HI Keith,

I believe the lure of being THE National Champion and winning the Walker Trophy will bring the very best to fly Open.

To me, OPEN is the "Masters" category, the best of the best.

Bill

Open should be renamed "Masters". We identify with that in almost all other sports Golf etc.

[Bill Little]

Open should be renamed "Masters". We identify with that in almost all other sports Golf etc.

Hi Milt,
I believe we need to keep "OPEN".    It quantifies the Age group like Junior and Senior.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Derek Barry]

Open is generally accepted as a masters class but it is Open to anyone of age who wishes to compete.

Derek

[proparc]

Hi Milt,
I believe we need to keep "OPEN".    It quantifies the Age group like Junior and Senior.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Good Point.

[RandySmith]

Open is generally accepted as a masters class but it is Open to anyone of age who wishes to compete.

Derek

Right , and Open along with Jr. and Sr is the ..only ... path to the Walker cup trophy

Randy

[Howard Rush]

It would dilute the Nats.  I guess Orestes or Richard Kornmeier might be satisfied to come and compete in a separate-but-equal Expert event, although I kinda doubt it.  If they do, who would be the Nats winner? 

Now you big-picture guys need to get some drone to figure out the details and do the tabulating. 

[RandySmith]

Expert Skill Class  is not a separate but equal event Howard, It is the last PAMPA Skill class that needed to be added to the NATs, it is run all over the country now, and has been for decades. In mine and most others mind it is not diluting or equal to the Open event, which is really the masters event.
The PAMPA EC, and the members voted  **  OVERWHELMINGLY ** to run this at the NATs, it will be ran next year, If it gives us more people flying the event, then it will be good for PAMPA, pilots, and all involved, if  for some reason no one wants to fly it, then no harm or foul and it can just be not ran again.

Randy

[Howard Rush]

At contests where Expert is run, Open isn't.   

[Brett Buck]

At contests where Expert is run, Open isn't.   

    Don't worry, that will take care of itself soon enough.

    Brett

[Doug Knoyle]

Expert Skill Class  is not a separate but equal event Howard, It is the last PAMPA Skill class that needed to be added to the NATs, it is run all over the country now, and has been for decades. In mine and most others mind it is not diluting or equal to the Open event, which is really the masters event.

Does this mean that there is a consensus that a sizable number of competitors are staying home because they feel their too good for Advanced yet not good enough for Open?

For the pilots that know their at the bottom of the Open barrel, won't some of them drop to Expert for higher placement?

If it gives us more people flying the event, then it will be good for PAMPA, pilots, and all involved, if  for some reason no one wants to fly it, then no harm or foul and it can just be not ran again.

Good point.

[RandySmith]

At contests where Expert is run, Open isn't.   

It will be now at the US NATs, it is a done deal Howard, rather than so much sour grapes why don't you try to come up with ideas that will help improve the numbers we have lost, if nothing is done ,nothing will improve

Randy

[RandySmith]

    Don't worry, that will take care of itself soon enough.

    Brett

Yep your right Brett  next July

Randy

[PJ Rowland]

So .. will you have a Top 20 Open 20 Expert and 20 Advanced ??

Currently Its Top 20 Advanced and Open over 4 circles ( 2 in each ) - I'm interested to know how this works.

 

[Brett Buck]

Yep your right Brett  next July

   No, in a few years, when you end up with no JSO. IAWTP.

    Brett

[Trostle]

It would dilute the Nats.  I guess Orestes or Richard Kornmeier might be satisfied to come and compete in a separate-but-equal Expert event, although I kinda doubt it.  If they do, who would be the Nats winner? 

Now you big-picture guys need to get some drone to figure out the details and do the tabulating. 

Howard,

What is the so called "separate-but-equal Expert event"?  The proposed, now approved Expert event at the Nats is its own event, just like Advanced and Open.  Neither is "equal" to anything else.  Each will be a separate contest, but I know you already know that.  But your question about "who would be the Nats winner?" maybe shows you yet do not understand what has been proposed AND APPROVED by PAMPA to have the Expert event at the Nats.  So who would be the Nats winner?  Well there will be a Nats Advanced winner, just like there is now.  There would be a Nats Expert winner, and there would be a Nats Open winner.  That Open winner will go on to compete for the Walker Cup against the Jr and Sr Champions for the National Stunt Championship.  So I guess the answer to your question about who would be the Nats winner would be the the National Stunt Champion who wins the Walker Cup.  And behold, that is sort of the way it is now.  I am sure you know that, but you asked the silly question.

Your last comment about needing to find a "drone" leaves me a bit bewildered.  Does that mean the current drone is going to pick up his marbles and go home because he does not like the idea of figuring out how to set up a program that adds an Expert category that, in turn, handles the scores for qualifying and flying in the flyoffs just like is currently done with the Advanced category.  For a moderately capable drone, which I am not, it does not seem that it would be too complicated other than the current drone does not like the idea.

with respect,
Keith

[Trostle]

So .. will you have a Top 20 Open 20 Expert and 20 Advanced ??

Currently Its Top 20 Advanced and Open over 4 circles ( 2 in each ) - I'm interested to know how this works.

 

PJ,

I think it has been explained that the current plan would be that there would still be 20 semi-finalists selected from the Open circles.  But instead of 20 finalists from the Advanced circles, there would be 10 Advanced finalists and 10 Expert finalists.  Rankings of those below the 10 qualifiers in each of the Advanced and Expert categories would still be determined just as the rankings are now determined by the non finalists in Advanced and Open.  With the entry levels experienced at the last several Nats, those numbers of finalists from the Advanced and Expert qualifying circles appears right.  As planning gets more refined, those numbers might be adjusted.

Keith

[PJ Rowland]

Thanks Keith - that makes sense, I apologise for not seeing anything previous.

[Doug Knoyle]

Just to be sure - no one pilot can fly more then one class ...correct (Beg, Int, Adv, Exp, Jr, Sr, Open) ?

[Bruce Perry]

I think that there is a distinct possibility that finally adding the expert class will not cause the sky to fall. Open will remain the premier event to which we will all aspire, including the chance to compete for the Walker cup, an internationally respected prize in stunt.  

Expert as it is flown regionally is the premier event that open Nats fliers compete in, I know many expert fliers that I believe would enjoy a Nats expert class where they could fly their BOM legal airplanes.  These pilots likely wouldn't want to fly advanced at the Nats as that would appear to be sandbagging but flying open is just allowing yourself to be judging fodder.  Expert catagory fixes the problem, the expert pilot is judged by the same judges as open allowing him to see how he stacks up.

Once the expert flier is ready, the step to open will be much more comfortable.  The very best way to see if this works is try it and support it.  I will encourage as many as I can to come to the Nats and enter the category best suited to their goals. Once they've Been to the Mecca and we can make their experience a positive one we will have new blood in our diminishing ranks.

Let's all encourage fliers to attend, let's ncourage them to build and fly, to put the Walker Cup on their goal list just like Doug did!

Or maybe the sky really is falling.....

Bruce

[Trostle]

(Clip)

 ...the expert pilot is judged by the same judges as open allowing him to see how he stacks up.

(Clip)

Bruce

Actually, the current plan is that The Expert event will be run at the same time as the Advanced category.  The judges for Expert WILL NOT be the same judges as the Open event.  The Expert categoy will be a different contest from the Open event.  Different contest, different circles, different judges. 

The Open event will remain the same as it is now where there are two days of qualification rounds, 20 pilots are picked for the semi final rounds from which 5 pilots go on to a finals round.  The Open Champion then goes on to the Walker Cup flyoff against the Junior and Senior Champions. 

The Expert event will be run similar to the current Advanced event where there will be two days of qualifying from which 10 (as now planned) pilots from each category (Expert and Advanced) will continue to the finals rounds for each category (Expert and Advanced).

And to answer another just asked question----.  Just as it is not allowed now to enter Open and Advanced, it will not be allowed for someone to enter more than one event when the Expert category is added to the Nats schedule.

Keith

[Bruce Perry]

Keith

To be clear by different contest I read that to mean different category like advanced.  We are on the same page.

Different circles though, expert will be on the l pad, to me that is the same.

Different judges, there were four advanced circles and four open circles this year,  does the judging corps change as the class changes?  It would seem to be a pain for the judges if they needed to form new groups for each class they judge.  I didn't notice it happening last year but I wasn't looking either. 

Regardless, the point I hoped to convey was the new expert class would or could offer a reference even to a small degree for the evolving pilot.

Respectfully.

Bruce

[Trostle]

Bruce,

I think you understand the direction this is going.  Indeed, the Open competitors will have their own contest on their two circles with a specific combinations of judges being used during the qualifications, semi-finals throgh to the finals, just as it is done now.  The Open event does not change.

The Expert and Advanced will be flown on the same days, the same circles, and separate from the Open competition, just as the Advanced category is now also flown separate from the Open event.  Actually, the Advanced event will not change except there may be fewer qualifiers to the Advanced final rounds.  And the Expert event will be similar to the Advanced event, only with a separate score board.

Keith

[Derek Barry]

My opinion is that Open should still be flown on all 4 circles where the top 5 from each can move on to the top 20. I would then put Advanced on two of the 4 circles and Expert on the other two.

 Just my .02

Derek

[Howard Rush]

It will be now at the US NATs, it is a done deal Howard, rather than so much sour grapes why don't you try to come up with ideas that will help improve the numbers we have lost, if nothing is done ,nothing will improve

I was just refuting your argument that this would be the same Expert that's been run all over the country for decades.  Expert is the highest class in those other contests.  It's where you, Dave Fitzgerald, and people who want to see how they stack up against you fly.  That will be how some people perceive it at the Nats.   It will be more inclusive, more "open" than open.  People with $4K store-bought airplanes can participate.  Kids can participate.  So who's the real National Champion?

[RC Storick]

Why does this seem so complicated? Nothing changes. Not the flight orders, Not the judges, Not the time involved,Just the advaced class is separated into truly what it is a expert class. Ask any advanced NATS winner in the last 10 years what class he flies at his local contest? I bet 20.00 he says expert!

[Tom Niebuhr]

Due to finances, I haven't been to a Nats in about 10 years. While adding Expert sounds good at first glance, I feel that this has been railroaded in. It sounds like the event is being watered down. It is also the start of the end of appearance points going out the back door.

The Nats is very special having a wonderful display of beautiful airplanes in one place at one time. I hope that I am wrong, but this could be start of the end for this. People have argued about appearance to the point that we are sick, but Brett has been correct in saying that the Nats is about crowning a National Champion and should demand the TOTAL package.

Many will say that you will still have Concours. The reality is that if you don't have appearance points in "Expert", how many people will really present their airplanes in one hall, if they don't feel they will be considered for Concours?  5 or 10 at best?

That wonderful display of airplanes will be gone.