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Author Topic: oriental ARF slow controls  (Read 8009 times)

Offline DanielGelinas

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oriental ARF slow controls
« on: June 02, 2012, 08:28:51 PM »
Hi Guys,

flew my brodak oriental arf for the first time yesterday. Nearly had a heart attack as the plane nearly crashed on its first loop....My gosh, is the plane going to loop or what...??

I have been reading posts about how slow the controls are on this plane due to the 4 inch bellcrank. D>K

Well I discovered this yesterday. I'm used to 3.5 inches of handle spacing on my superclown.  The superclown will loop on a dime... I am planning to try 4 inches of handle spacing for the oriental next time out.

One thing I was wondering however is where the pushrod goes in the elevator horn? I saw on the oriental plans that it goes in the furthest away hole. However, the KIT oriental has a 3 inch bellcrank, the arc has 4 inches. I am flying the ARC oriental. The elevator has very little travel compared to the flaps.

Should I go ahead and change the elevator horn position now or wait and see if the 4 inch handle spacing will help the SLOW controls? BTW, I have the Brodak .40 on the plane and really like its performance. 

Thanks! H^^

-Dan

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 09:52:25 PM »
            Hello Daniel,  I use the Brodak wood handle which is the "Hot Rock" copy which I believe is 3.94 inches. I would say that would be your 4" handle. I also witnessed guys flying the ARF with the giant EZ-Just. I'm not sure I would go that route myself. It just may be that your plane is still nose heavy even though you chose the Brodak .40 which is quite light. I had 3/4 oz. of tail weight on mine even with the Brodak.40. I was a using a Randy Smith tongue muffler so I imagine that stock muffler your using is a bit heavier as well. Are you using a spinner in addition to the stock muffler? Obviously this will make the noseheaviness greater.   Getting back into the Oriental isn't as hard as you would think. I cut out  the side of the fuse and made a door to access the clevis I installed. I made the door from lite ply. I also used this as an opportunity to glue some lead inside so it wasn't on the outside. I would certainly try adding a touch of tail weight.  Once you have the plane trimmed correctly, it really will perform quite well. I would certainly feel it out with your 4" handle and go from there before changing the horn. Just as an example, I'm now using a LA.40 and the plane needed almost 3 oz's of tail weight to balance. Ken

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2012, 07:37:16 AM »
My ARF Oriental had more flap movement than elevator, which I was always told was bad.   Had to play with the control system until I got more elevator than flap.  It was a good flying plane, better than the pilot.    H^^
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Offline DanielGelinas

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 08:16:08 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys!
I think the balance is pretty good.  I am using a brodak tongue muffler with NO spinner. I have a 3 inch brodak metal spinner that does not seem to like the threads on the b40....strange...I tried on several b40s I have and no-go.
Anyways, I will try the 4 inch handle spacing first. Then try adding a little weight on the tail and see if that helps. if controls are still slow, I will add a door to the rear and change the clevis position.
Thanks guys!
-Dan

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2012, 09:58:07 AM »
Dan, You need to have the flaps and elevators moving pretty much equaly, unless its really really heavy..

If your elevator is not moving as much as the flaps, then you will need to change the position on the elevator horn to make it fly right
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the plans or instructions for the ARC may show something incorrectly in the linkage, but I cannot find it right now..
that said,, I would recomend making sure that your flaps and elevators are moving 1 to 1
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2012, 07:01:39 PM »
            Dan, I originally had a Brodak spinner on mine. This is what I discovered, due to the APC prop having a fairly large hub thickness, there just wasn't enough threads from the crankshaft into the spinner nut. It screwed on but what happened was I noticed the prop was slipping on the backplate. This was happening on start up if the engine backfired. I kept repositioning the prop and would tighten it again. Eventually it stripped out entirely. I purchased another type of spinner nut that had a thinner washer at the base and has worked fine ever since. I can't remember what brand it was due to it being purchased several years ago. Ken

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 12:19:27 AM »

One thing I was wondering however is where the pushrod goes in the elevator horn? I saw on the oriental plans that it goes in the furthest away hole. However, the KIT oriental has a 3 inch bellcrank, the arc has 4 inches. I am flying the ARC oriental. The elevator has very little travel compared to the flaps.


   It doesn't matter what the plans say. It will need approximately equal travel between the flap and elevator, or if it is particularly light, more elevator than flap. Move the pushrod closer to the elevator until you get equal travel each way.

    On many competition planes the elevator horn has a "slider" that allows very fine adjustments of the flap/elevator ratio. It's an extremely sensitive adjustment and tiny changes make a huge difference in the results.

     Brett

Offline DanielGelinas

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 08:59:34 PM »
Alright,
I followed your recomendations fellows. Made a nice little screw on door with lite ply. Changed the horn position so that controls are one to one. added a tad 1/2  ounce tail weight.
Can't wait till the weekend to try it out!!
Thanks,
-Daniel H^^

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 11:03:41 PM »
well now that the controls are one to one,, you may want to rethink that weight in the tail,, or at least be prepared,, it may be a lot more sensitive than you are ready for,,
does the tail weight put the cg where the plans say?
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Offline DanielGelinas

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 07:49:26 PM »
Mark,

I think you have a good point. I 'll remove the tail weight until I see how the plane reacts to the change of controls. If need be, I'll add tail weight.
One change at a time...

-Dan H^^

Offline Jason Greer

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2012, 09:53:06 PM »
In addition to correcting the control geometry, I would also make sure to have a support at the mid point of the elevator pushrod to prevent it from flexing under load.  If it is setup anything like the Vector ARC, then it has a solid music wire elevator pushrod with no support at the mid point.  You can test if this is happening by pulling the up leadout and then try to push the elevator down.  You may have already fixed this on your model, but I thought I'd suggest it just in case.

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Offline DanielGelinas

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 08:11:22 AM »
Flew the plane yesterday!  ;D

First flight the needle setting was too rich.

Second flight, I adjusted the needle after changing the tongue muffler for the stock B40 muffler (not as noisy in the park).
Also added 3/4 oz in the tail.
The plane flew great! This plane flies much better than my super clown (crashed and repaired many times...). I'm really impressed with it's performance with the B40.

I did notice it takes much more time to get the plane in the air than with my super clown. I guess its a bigger heavier model.

Jason, unfortunately, I think the support you are talking about would mean I would have to open up the airframe. I don't think that's an option until I crash it. :'(

Thanks to all for your help in trimming!

-Dan

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 03:21:39 AM »
The plane flew great! This plane flies much better than my super clown (crashed and repaired many times...). I'm really impressed with it's performance with the B40.

   Excellent. Dee Rice designed it to fly just like a Nobler, and it does!

     Brett

Offline James C. Martin

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2014, 05:50:36 PM »
ive got an arf oriental with a os .40 la-s had to put 3 oz. of lead in the rear but it flys very smooth

Offline kiwibrit

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2014, 12:39:10 AM »
In addition to correcting the control geometry, I would also make sure to have a support at the mid point of the elevator pushrod to prevent it from flexing under load.  If it is setup anything like the Vector ARC, then it has a solid music wire elevator pushrod with no support at the mid point.  You can test if this is happening by pulling the up leadout and then try to push the elevator down.  You may have already fixed this on your model, but I thought I'd suggest it just in case.

Jason


I have been concerned about that on my Brodak ARF Smothie. I intend to bind a light carbon fibre rod along the length of the pushrod with thread and cyano.

Offline kiwibrit

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2014, 07:31:56 AM »
I have bound  a carbon fibre rod to the pushrod with polyester thread and cyano. 

Offline Jared Hays

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2014, 12:30:05 AM »
My ARF Oriental was a dog in "manures" too...about piled it in on the first loop as well.  It was too nose heavy...took 3 1/2 oz. of tail weight to CG correctly but then was so heavy it didn't fly well.  Did major surgery and cut the fuse made a 3 1/2" extension to the fuse and so it moved the stab back 3 1/2" from stock location as well then I was able to remove all the tail weight.  What a difference this plane will now fly the pattern very well and I think it looks a lot better too.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2014, 01:02:44 AM »
I'm building one right now. I was going to replace the pushrod with a CF tibe, but binding it to a rod is a much easier idea.
The plane was designed for a lighter engine than we're using, in my case a 40FP. I hadn't considered lengthening the tail. I knew it was going to come out nose heavy.
Rusty
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Offline Rob Duckering

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 12:55:00 PM »
Brodak 40 works well in the ARF or ARC Oriental.
Duck

Offline RknRusty

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2014, 03:16:12 PM »
Brodak 40 works well in the ARF or ARC Oriental.
So I hear. I've already drilled for a 40FP but someone I know suggested the holes may be the same as a B-40. Does anyone know for sure?
Rusty
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2014, 05:30:20 PM »
I'm building one right now. I was going to replace the pushrod with a CF tibe, but binding it to a rod is a much easier idea.

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Offline DanielGelinas

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2014, 10:42:01 AM »
Yes, the B40 fits exactly in the same holes as the os40. I know as i have tried both. The length to the prop is different, if i remember correctly.

The os35s, la40 also have the same mounting pattern. The plane flies very well without any mods with the B40.

Dan

Online Steve Helmick

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Re: oriental ARF slow controls
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2014, 11:13:29 PM »
Slow controls are WAY better than controls that are TOO QUICK. A wider spacing comes with no penalty, and in fact is a bonus, while narrow line spacing at the handle is a big negative...loss of precision.

Apparently, the QC at Brodak's isn't good at CG & pushrod attachment locations? There are few things that are more important. Some of Top Flite's ARFs also FAIL in this regard. How hard can it be, to get (at least) the critical info correct?  '' Steve
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