Official Event

[john e. holliday]

You state in one of the posts that the N-30 is now an official event per the PAMPA executive council.   DOes this mean they make an official event without consulting the membership?  Don't get me wrong as I like the idea of it and the way it can be incorporated into a contest schedule.  DOC Holliday

[RandySmith]

You state in one of the posts that the N-30 is now an official event per the PAMPA executive council.   DOes this mean they make an official event without consulting the membership?  Don't get me wrong as I like the idea of it and the way it can be incorporated into a contest schedule.  DOC Holliday

Hi Doc

It was done the same way all the others were, by a vote of your PAMPA Representative, along with every other districts rep. It was presented and discussed for going on 2 months before being accepted and voted as an event.

Regards
Randy

[John Miller]

All the elements of N-30 have been discussed many times on the forums. The rules as approved are identical to the elements discussed, and were most acceptable to those on the forums.

I've no issues with the rules. They seem reasonable, and fair. They are easy to implement, and do not displace any other event, no additional personnel, and only require an additional set of awards.

Pretty much a no brainer to me my friends.

I won't hold my breath for seeing this event at VSC. It is, after all, about the Classic Era, but, if they decided to include it, it would fit in very easily. I'm not advocating they include it, just noting how seamlessly adding this event to an existing Classic contest could be. 

[Matt Colan]

The way Nostalgia 30 seems like it would run, it wouldn't make sense to hold it at VSC, because there are already 80-90 contestants flying in classic, then each of them had their choice of flying in Nostalgia 30 or in classic.  I would think at someplace like VSC, make it a separate event, but then if it takes three days for three rounds of classic, two days for Old Time, and then if you had two days of Nostalgia 30, that be 7 days.  I would think that would be kind of long.

Just thinking out loud here

[RandySmith]

Hi Matt

N-30 lends itself to any of these contests and Events very well, VSC included, It is setup to run together or separate, deliberate so if there is any circle or time or personel problem it makes that doable very easyily

Regards
Randy

[L0U CRANE]

Randy, to your reply #1 to DOC...

I agree, at least in part, with his question... My District rep IS my District VP, and he did not - to my knowledge - ask around, after spreading the wording of the proposal. Did the proposal even exist before the Nats?  Who originated it, and where did it go, with Alice Cotton-Royer having recently stepped down from the Rules honcho positiion?

I'm not opposed to the wording, or the idea, but there are some phrasings that come off as ambiguous. Does separating the events at the scoreboard, and having the entrant 'declare' which event he's entered, mean that Nos-30 models MUST be from AFTER the Classic era, and no more recent than 30 years ago? Or are Classic era models allowed to be "declared" as Nos-30 entries?  Or even OTS eligible models? The proposal doesn't clarify...

It would serve us more richly to have these questions, and perhaps a few others, settled more clearly. That there is interest and support for something along these lines, apparently, is well-established. The more built-in sources of """discussion""" we can settle beforehand, the less rancor, the greater enjoyment for the greater number of us.

[RandySmith]

Randy, to your reply #1 to DOC...

I agree, at least in part, with his question... My District rep IS my District VP, and he did not - to my knowledge - ask around, after spreading the wording of the proposal. Did the proposal even exist before the Nats?  Who originated it, and where did it go, with Alice Cotton-Royer having recently stepped down from the Rules honcho positiion?

I'm not opposed to the wording, or the idea, but there are some phrasings that come off as ambiguous. Does separating the events at the scoreboard, and having the entrant 'declare' which event he's entered, mean that Nos-30 models MUST be from AFTER the Classic era, and no more recent than 30 years ago? Or are Classic era models allowed to be "declared" as Nos-30 entries?  Or even OTS eligible models? The proposal doesn't clarify...

It would serve us more richly to have these questions, and perhaps a few others, settled more clearly. That there is interest and support for something along these lines, apparently, is well-established. The more built-in sources of """discussion""" we can settle beforehand, the less rancor, the greater enjoyment for the greater number of us.

Hi Lou

I am sorry I cannot see how this is not clear, but I will try to clarify the points you are asking about,

N-30 is flown by ...any..plane that is 30 years old or older, Say that Club A is holding a N-30 contest only, you can use a Barnstormer, a Stiletto, Nobler, or anything you personally care to fly in the contest. The rules state the model must be at least 30 years old,.. period..there is no other criteria.
Just like you can fly a Barnstormer now in Classic, you could fly it in N-30

To your next question, If Club A wants to have a Contest with Old Time Classic, and N-30, you will have 3 separate score sheets, and I assume separate sign up sheets, If you want to enter your Nobler in N-30, you would sign up and fly it in that event, If the events are ran on the same circle, with the same judges you would only be allowed to enter Either Classic or N-30..NOT...Both.
 The flyer has the option of flying the event that he wants. The flyer can use any plane that is 30 years old or older in N-30, N-30 planes do not fly or compete against Classic planes.N-30 is a separate event, even if it is flown on the same circle as Classic.

If the Contest has enough manpower,judges,circles to run the events as separate events, then you can enter and fly Both Classic and N-30, in both cases you will have separate sheets posted for ..all..the events that you are running.
You can in this case use your Jamison for N-30, Classic, and Old time, or you Nobler for all 3 events, If you only brought a Caprice you can fly both Classic and N-30, If you only brought a Stiletto  you can only fly  N-30.

In..NO..case can you ever use a N-30 plane(from later than Dec 31 1969) to compete in Classic, however you can fly your Nobler or Barnstormer, in all events.

If people are worried about someone flying N-30 instead of Classic because they maybe can get an easy trophy..that is a non issue, this sort of thing happens on occasion and always has, probably alway will on a tiny scale, All of these Events are NOT about trophies, they are about presevring by building ,showing,flying, these historic models.

The proposal existed months before the NATs...I am not sure how that question has anything to do with anything??? Maybe you can clarify ?

The proposal went to the proper people...The PAMPA EC, the EC disussed my proposal for going on 2 months before voting on it. It was approved before the NATs

The rules change person at PAMPA has nothing to do with a new proposed event..only rules changes for existing events (by the way I thought the same before I checked on it)

As to your question about who originated the proposal, that would be Randy Smith

PAMPA EC members are elected to make decisions on just such matters.

I posted the proposal below as it is in the tagged thread above.

Regards
Randy

Nostalgia 30

 

  Nostalgia 30 is in the same spirit as Old Time and Classic, which both, are events that were conceived to provide venues that promote the construction and flying of Historic designs from by gone eras.

Both have been extremely successful as evidenced by continued growth since their inception, Further, they both have benefitted from continued adjustments to the rules that proved to stimulate participation in both events by encouraging more modelers to build,show,and fly these historic planes.

  This proposal provides for the addition of a new series of designs by establishing a new event that has a 30 year rolling cutoff, That is, any plane that is 30 or more years old from the current year will be eligible for competition.

Discussion

 1. This event is about recreating the past, as Old time and Classic have been the focal point of stimulating construction of the older designs, This event will do much the same for this class of older designs. Without this format, in all likelihood, many of these designs will slowly disappear and be lost forever as the data, or designers pass from the scene.

 
2. For the past few years, many contests have been hosting unofficial events they are similar to this proposal, i.e.: " Nostalgia 79", "Classic 84",etc. This demonstrates there is both the enthusiasm for the inclusion of a new set of designs, but also the necessity for  a standard set of supplementary rules.

 
3. Nostalgia 30 will utilize the same rules as the current Classic Event with the exception of the eligibility of newer designs that meet the 30 year or more criteria. Due to lack of time, circles, and manpower at weekend contest, this event is designed to be run in conjunction with Classic, and administratively separated with a separate set of awards.

It can also be flown as a separate event, whichever is the most convenient for the contest management. If ran with Classic which has designs over 30 years old, Contestants would be required to declare for either Nostalgia 30 or Classic, but not both.

 
4. These events should always be inclusive, not exclusive, and should always,within the rules, strive to include new flyers and new planes, remember what is a Nostalgic period to one person, can be a  different era for another.

 

Regards

Randy Smith

[L0U CRANE]

... On thinking it over, and with Matt's comments about Nos-30 possibly at a VSC or similar quite large meet, this may be where I felt there was a slight "gap."

As Matt cited, we usually have 80 to 90+ Classic entries at VSC. Classic is run as a separate event, of course. The pretty-traditional approach is maintained: OTS and Classic eligible (by the event rules and traditions) models can fly Classic. Few OT models do, but there are some every year.

With Nos-30, as you say, open to all models 30 or more years "old," I'd expect to see most if not all of the Classic models back again in the Nos-30 rounds. I don't expect there to be a stampede to build, finish and dial-in new models in addition to the OTs and Classics, when there's no need. The Classic models are already there, and can get another event's flying in, merely by declaring entry in Nos-30.

Classic, originally sliding 25-year cut-off Nostalgia, per Mike Keville, gradually morphed into the end-of-1969 cut-off rules. I think a reason for that was to preserve interest in models from what had become the "Classic" era, rather than to let many of them disappear as later tech and designs clobbered them on the scoreboards.

Of course, contest organizers can make and announce variations on AMA Rules for their meets, if safety is not compromised. OTS, Classic and Nos-30 are not AMA Rules, but the same principle applies. When VSCs draw 12 or so sparkers, 50 to 80 OT entries, and 80 to 90+ Classic entries, that's a lot of flying, judging, tabulating, posting, pull-testing, and daily set-up and cleanup. Nos-30, added on top of that, I expect would get 50 or more of the Classic models back up again. VSC went to 3 rounds per event this year, didn't it? (I was unable to make it, my first miss ever.)

For the VSC situation in Arizona, I think I'd prefer to see a Nos-30 or Super-70 event that was NOT open to OT or Classic eligible models. It would stimulate interest in 30+ year old designs too recent to be Classic eligible, and it would encourage actually buiilding them, more - at least - than bringing just one double- or triple-threat model.

For local meets, where the entry field is unlikely to be overwhelming in numbers, sure, allow anything over 30, but limit the entrant to flying only one side of the combined Clas/Nos event time.

Well, hey, even the AMA CLPA Nats have to make at least a few adaptations from strict rulebook wording...

[RandySmith]

Hi Lou

I will try to address your concerns, However remember this WILL add more flyers and more airplanes to our event, It is also good to remeber this is TOY Airplanes. I have been more than happy to see all the emails ,phone calls ,etc.from people who are excited to build these models, and from ones who are pulling old ones off the wall and getting them back into flying shape

“”With Nos-30, as you say, open to all models 30 or more years "old," I'd expect to see most if not all of the Classic models back again in the Nos-30 rounds. I don't expect there to be a stampede to build, finish and dial-in new models in addition to the OTs and Classics, when there's no need. The Classic models are already there, and can get another event's flying in, merely by declaring entry in Nos-30.””

Hi Lou That is your opinion,and that is OK you are certainly welcome to share yours, I however do not share that opinion, and the number of people that I have spoke with that ARE excited about building new models seem to agree with me, and will make it a moot point.
I have a Sig Super Chipmunk hanging on the wall I can fly NOW.
 I think there maybe many other Chipmunks around Too, as well as many other 70s Ships.
 I personaly know of over 2 or 3 dozens that people have told me they have to fly now.

“I think a reason for that was to preserve interest in models from what had become the "Classic" era, rather than to let many of them disappear as later tech and designs clobbered them on the scoreboards.”

Again ,that is your opinion, there is no proof of that, and I have never seen that happen.
I would also add that the 70s era planes are deserving of preserving also, every bit as much as the 60s are.
The 1969 USA-1 is about as good as planes from 2009,if your worried about Classic planes being clobbered, maybe it needs to be outlawed?
If it is the Hi Tech equipment part of it your worried about, this has nothing to do with N-30 as I have seen at VSC and many other places, Hi tech computer boards, EL motors, programmed flight boxes, AAC, ABC, ABN, Plasma engine parts etc in pre 1952 planes. Forget about the tons of other stuff like super light wheels  cnc  mufflers spinner and the like, handmade CF props, computer designed props, CF control system, the list goes forever.


”Of course, contest organizers can make and announce variations on AMA Rules for their meets, if safety is not compromised. OTS, Classic and Nos-30 are not AMA Rules, but the same principle applies. When VSCs draw 12 or so sparkers, 50 to 80 OT entries, and 80 to 90+ Classic entries, that's a lot of flying, judging, tabulating, posting, pull-testing, and daily set-up and cleanup. Nos-30, added on top of that, I expect would get 50 or more of the Classic models back up again. VSC went to 3 rounds per event this year, didn't it? (I was unable to make it, my first miss ever.)”

So you would expect to see no N-30 models, but you would like to hold a Super 70s contest and you do expect to see them?


”For the VSC situation in Arizona, I think I'd prefer to see a Nos-30 or Super-70 event that was NOT open to OT or Classic eligible models. It would stimulate interest in 30+ year old designs too recent to be Classic eligible, and it would encourage actually building them, more - at least - than bringing just one double- or triple-threat model.”

I guess you missed the entire point of creating N-30, It was created to encourage the building, showing, preserving, and flying, this class of models, as many are doing as we speak, It was also done to get a nationwide set of rules so we can not have umpteen dozen different rules and dates

“When VSCs draw 12 or so sparkers, 50 to 80 OT entries, and 80 to 90+ Classic entries, that's a lot of flying, judging, tabulating, posting, pull-testing, and daily set-up and cleanup. Nos-30, added on top of that, I expect would get 50 or more of the Classic models back up again”

If you feel that you guys would be completely overwhelmed by N-30 at VSC, then don’t have it, however it is foolish in my mind not to support the event,
 You could also make a proposal to STOP those OTS planes from ever flying Classic also.
I think the fact that you were wanting to have a SS70s contest but say that it would be a burden to have N-30 is just an excuse to Not support N-30, which is yours and you clubs right to do so. As I stated previously run your contest as you see fit. There is not anything wrong with that.
There have been Contest over the past years flying with planes up to 1984 in Classic, goes over very well for the clubs holding them. The problem is the lack of a standard in rules so you can be consistent from contest to Contest

“For local meets, where the entry field is unlikely to be overwhelming in numbers, sure, allow anything over 30, but limit the entrant to flying only one side of the combined Clas/Nos event time.”

The rules are  already take care of that, If you are overwhelmed by too many flights or not enough judges, or not enough circles, N-30 is ran together with Classic, Then there is ZERO problems with double entries, you must declare if you are flying Classic or N-30. You cannot fly both.

The bottom line is, we have a new event, It should be supported. Classic does not need to be protected from N-30, It will not cause the event to die,N-30 will not obsolete Classic airplanes, nor will it stagnate the event.  You can try to poke all the holes in it you want, try to stop it from growing , or you can build fly and have a whole lot of fun and enjoyment flying Nostalgia 30

Regards
Randy

[RandySmith]

"No offense intended. I tried to indicate that much of my comments reflect personal opinion."

Lou, I take no offense at all to your post


""So, yes, personally, in a way, I'd rather see Nos-30/S-70 entries from the 1970's, than including perviously defined, specified cut-off date, class models. Opening the "1970's included" event to 'legacy" models may encourage inflated entry totals, without making clear whether the interest is in the 1970's era's models, or just in getting another event to fly an existing model in./""

So you would be in favor of a rules change proposal to stop OTS planes from flying in Classic???
The two are exactly the same thing


"""Some local areas may even prefer to discard the separate Classic event, since it could be considered part of the "1970's included" event"""

Lou ,that is not going to happen, this is just more"gloom and doom" talk , the best way is to try the N-30, see how many people build ships for the ..new..event, not to try  to scare people that it will kill off Classic. You can speculate all you want, but you will not know until you try it.

N30 has met with great enthusiasm across the country, many people are building now for it, others are getting old ships back in shape to fly, and Clubs have already planning Nostalgia-30 contest

Randy

[RandySmith]

"With Nos-30, as you say, open to all models 30 or more years "old," I'd expect to see most if not all of the Classic models back again in the Nos-30 rounds. I don't expect there to be a stampede to build, finish and dial-in new models in addition to the OTs and Classics, when there's no need. The Classic models are already there, and can get another event's flying in, merely by declaring entry in Nos-30."

Hi Lou,  The solution to that, if you are so afraid of what may happen ,is to only let them fly one or the other...very simple


"Classic, originally sliding 25-year cut-off Nostalgia, per Mike Keville, gradually morphed into the end-of-1969 cut-off rules."

That was Ted Fancher's wonderful idea, and was one of the BEST features of the original Classic, many many people still hate that it was changed

Regards
Randy

[L0U CRANE]

DOC, will you allow me a rant?

Sorry to jump back in so late. I'd become tired of a semantic argument, where two of us seem to have different dictionaries.

Yes, I'd have been glad to offer my thoughts in advance of the diktat that there is - suddenly - a new PAMPA event. That was not made available to me. Or to people like Trostle and Tiahrt, who have been involved in many CLPA-wide decisions over the many past years. I believe you've been a PAMPA VP (i.e., your District's EC member) - did you have any advance info on this proposal? Did any members of your District offer their thoughts? If so, what percentage of the total in your District? How did that fall out in ayes and nays?

I recall the days when, according to PAMPA's publication, the New Joisey "machine" was all there was in CLPA, despite being smaller than the present Southeastern US 'majority.' ...And some of the hard feelings that followed the "nationalization" of PAMPA...

It may have been according to the PAMPA wording, as it is, but something that affects all parts of CLPA in the USA, and indirectly in the entire world, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, might have had a bit more openness to discussion. ...In advance of a closed door meeting, and a surprise announcement. (Neither Tiahrt nor Trostle had ANY word of the 'new official PAMPA rules proposal' before I showed them the post that started this thread, at our August Cholla Choppers meeting.)

I think it IS a good idea. It may well have won through in its present form after more widespread discussion. Personally, I differ only - in detail - on the open-ness to the general CLPA community (PAMPA or otherwise.) That includes the idea of pre-empting other approaches in areas where 1970's era models have not been urgent concerns. I still have a set of Tru-Flite GENESIS wings, AND plans for the 35 GENESIS: I"m not protecting my own toes from being stomped.

So, the Southeastern US likes the idea. Fine. Still, about 40%, likely more, of CLPA fliers within our country live in just the West Coast Area. OK, we were outvoted, apparently. But, we were also not invited to vote, discuss or participate, except that we COULD have, if we traveled 2500+ miles to the Nationals, and were allowed into the PAMPA EC discussion.

A good rule does not need to be imposed this way. This method might just inspire civil unrest - TEA parties, anyone (TEA meaning Taxed Enough Already, according to their activists)? The good in it may be lost in the way it was created.

As I've said in many posts, in almost all the forums (fora?) I've been part of since the earliest CL area on Modelnet (1982-1983, at 20 cents a minute connect charges), THIS IS A HOBBY, SOMETHING WE DO BECAUSE WE LIKE TO DO IT. IF SOMETHING OR SOMEONE CHANGES IT SO MUCH THAT WE NO LONGER LIKE DOING IT, THERE ARE ALWAYS TENNIS, GOLF, AND OPPOSING ANYTHING TO DO WITH MODEL AVIATION TO KEEP US BUSY.

I repeat: There is a great positive value in promoting the preservation and honoring of the models of the 1970's, and I hope to see a generally desirable way to get this done. I feel we - the rest of the CLPA community - have been somewhat disserviced by the way Nos-30 was created. That OT and Classic have been blended since Nostalgia/Classic was created does not demand that a new era of "nostalgic" models must also be blended in the same way. This is new. Why force it to preserve the old, out of its era? Sure, event entries would increase, but split between 4 or 5 70's models among 20 Classic+70's entries? ...And with Classic-eligibles also able to enter a separate Classic event? Or do we ban separate Classic events, and run ONLY Classic+70's events? Could work... How would the entrants like it, though? It could raise a 90 entry Classic event to over a hundred if there are 10 or more 70's models (Thinking same circle, same time block...)

Randy, I respect your opinions and your freedom to offer them. I do feel a bit excluded from the same consideration in this matter. The idea is good and has considerable merit. Considerable - which means worthy of consideration... Maybe that hangs me up? The other 60% or 80% of PAMPA members and ex-members - well over 1,000 people - were not involved in the dicsussion. Sure, a few dozen have mentioned eagerness to build and fly 1970's models, and I am tempted myself. Will it actually happen, though? 

I hope so, but (doom and gloom here, if you wish to condemn it as such) I am not as positive and proud that "it has already happened". What if it does turn into merely another round of Classic? Without much interest in 1970's designs? Do we then eliminate Classic except as part of a combined Classic+70's/or sliding 30 event? Oh, yeah, sorry, I forgot, that is not a threat to the currently popular Classic event...

In any event, it will have little effect on contests this year, or possibly early next year, since +30 and 1979 cover the same era.

[RandySmith]

Hi Lou

You post is full of inaccurate and false statements, All PAMPA bylaws and procedures were followed in the creation of the event, and ALL parts of the country discussed this with ALL PAMPA Reps being involved, and the entire country voted this event to be created.
You vote on a PAMPA Rep to represent you on ALL of these type matter, He did and your district was represented and your district got a vote, just like every district in the entire nation got a vote. This is how the bylaws are setup to start/create items such as this.

You still seem to think this was a rules change proposal, it was not. This  Nostalgia 30  event  went thru  the  exact same  process that OTS and Classic went thru to become events

You are trying to insinuate that there was a secret closed door meeting at the NATs that no one was allowed to attend and out sprang N-30..
.THIS IS NOT SO..
This proposal WAS disccussed by all the PAMPA reps of  ALL  parts of the country and many many PAMPA members for 2 months before it was voted on.
The proposal was NOT discussed and voted on at the NATs PAMPA general meeting, it was just announced there.

You state you had NO representation in this, YOU DID, your rep voted to form this event, THIS IS  NOT a Southeast vs. The rest of the country deal, ALL OF THE COUNTRY discussed and voted on the new event not just part of it.
I am curious why you brought up the New Jersey thing?? are you trying to start friction between the east coast west coast and trying to turn this into something that is is not ? This was NOT a southeastern decision, this was not an us vs them scenario,ALL of PAMPA from EVERY district was involved.

The rest of your post sounds like your just intent upon trying to invent a scenario to proclaim how Nostalgia will either hurt or kill off other events, this is simply not true.
The bottom line is, we have a new event, It should be supported. Classic does not need to be protected from N-30, It will not cause the event to die,N-30 will not obsolete Classic airplanes, nor will it stagnate the event.  You can try to poke all the holes in it you want, try to stop it from growing , or you can build fly and have a whole lot of fun and enjoyment flying Nostalgia 30


Regards
Randy

[Bill Little]

HI Lou,

As a PAMPA District Trustee for a few years, I can tell you that PAMPA EC business is now conducted through a email list between all the Board of Directors.  It is the District Trustee's duty to advise the members in his area as to what needs discussion, etc..  That is the primary reason I finally did not run for re-election.  I felt i could not communicate with enough members on a regular basis.  It is difficult ion some areas to contact a lot of members when something is going on.

The Trustees are elected to vote on issues as the By-Laws state.  The membership, as a whole, is not always aware of everything that is discussed and voted on.  In the case of the Nostalgia 30 Event, it was an EC matter.  Now, it should have been discussed with individual Trustees and their constituents, I believe, but i was not a Trustee when this took place.

Not flaming or blaming anyone, just pointing out what I saw as a Trustee.  I never saw a Regional thing occurring, mostly it was just an *individual thing*.  Of course, some Trustees hold more value than others.  Sorta like Senate majority leaders and Senior Members, etc..  A long time member who is a NATS winner in some category, etc., carries more voice.  So, I cannot believe this was a shove through deal from one region.

I see the event as promoting stunt, since i have desired an event of this nature for years, but never pursued it.  I love the *Classic* planes, do most of my building for that era, but I also want to build a plane or two from the '70s like the Macaluso Crusader or a Stiletto.  I could have done that and flown in PAMPA classes but it now has more of a *purpose* to do it.  At least I have a choice now as to what plane I want to build for a class.  I do not see this event hurting Classic anymore than Classic hurt Old Time.  I see no down side.

Thanks!
Bill <><