Delta wing stunter - Delta Force.

[George in Cedar]

Hi folks.  I've been hanging around the forum for a few months now and I can say I've learned a lot.  Seems to be lots of information, experience, and good advice here.  I'm not new to modeling.  I was active in control line for a couple of decades, and tried a little RC too (without a lot of success, or fun.) But now I’m getting a bit more active and trying some new things. 

Most of my glow engines are worn out so I’m making the move from glow engines to electric motors.  Wow! Lots of new things to learn!!  I’m finding that there is a pretty steep learning curve when converting to electric.  The cost curve is pretty steep too!  But I’m really enthused about the technology. 

Over the years a fair number of stunt ships have gone across my building board.  Since I am trying new things I thought I’d try a different type of airplane too.  A delta wing design called the Delta Force, designed by Mike Pratt.  A very different airplane in my experience.  All wing, not a lot of fuselage, and no tail.  That’s different. 

I haven’t had it in the air yet.  There’s still six inches of snow on the ground here.  Two nights ago the temperature was -5 degrees, so model flying isn’t much fun just now.  Maybe in a couple of weeks --- . 

Anyway, I thought I’d share some photos of the finished product with you. 

[John Rist]

WOW!!  Looks fast!

 

[Dennis Adamisin]

First off George, WELCOME to SH & the Electric forum.

About the new bird, in a word WOW.  You need to post some of the particulars, like dimensions, weight, and power system.  Looks like a really slick battery hatch in the wing - can you post some pix about that too?


It was 45F here today, but forecasts is for up to a foot of snow tomorrow.......

[Crist Rigotti]

Wow, cool!  Nice job too.   

[Bob Hudak]

This is one slick looking bird ! I too would like to know some specifics on the power plant and battery hatch. Looks like the battery is in the wing.

[john e. holliday]

That is one gorgeous looking Delta.  Is there going to be plans showing the elctric set up?

[George in Cedar]

Hi again guys.  Thanks for your interest and comments.  I can supply some additional information. 

Wing span is 54 in.  Wing cord is 20 inches.  Area is 821 sq inches.  Weight is 55 oz all up. 
The power is an E-Flight Power 32 motor with a Castle ICE Lite 50 ESC.  I used a KR timer to run the show.  The battery is a Zippy Compact 3300 mha 35C from Hobby Kink.  I ordered that battery last December and it didn't arrive until February.  What I didn't know was that the battery had to come from China.  I paid $10 for air express rates.  That, apparently, didn't include bribes for customs.  Live and learn.  I just ordered another battery last week, but I made sure that it was stocked in the US warehouse. 

I've included some photos that show the battery and timer installation.  Also one of the photos shows that I placed the ESC on the bottom of the wing.  I had the idea that it would fit in the cheek cowl where the time is now, but it just wouldn't fit.  Plan ahead --- .  So I placed it where it's shown mostly to provide for good cooling, but also to take up some of the slack in all of the wiring.  As I said, I'm new to the electric thing so I wasn't sure which wires I could shorten and which one I couldn't.  It seems to me that wire management is going to be a problem for any profile airplane.  Also shown in that photo is the cooling outlet on the bottom of the wing for the battery compartment.  Further testing is needed to verify the battery cooling scheme.

A few other details:  The elevator is balanced at a point 1/2 inch back from the elevator leading edge.  I'm not sure why, but only that Mikey said so.  Makes it really interesting to assemble the elevator and support pieces.  The motor is front mounted using one of Bob Hunt's Hardnose Mount.  That's a really slick motor mount.  Have good tools when you machine it to fit.  I used a jigsaw to make it round and I had to use two blades to cut it.   Bob had got a good instruction sheet related to working the material.  The E-Flight motor fit the mount perfectly. 

I believe that Mike Pratt is planning to make plans, and perhaps a scratch-builder set (plans, booklet, and templates) available in the not-to-distant future. 

[Howard Rush]

Very cool looking airplane.

[MikeyPratt]

First off George, WELCOME to SH & the Electric forum.

About the new bird, in a word WOW.  You need to post some of the particulars, like dimensions, weight, and power system.  Looks like a really sick battery hatch in the wing - can you post some pixa about that too?


It was 45F here today, but forecasts is for up to a foot of snow tomorrow.......

George is being way too modest.  He is an excellent builder and craftsman. 

[Dean Pappas]

Welcome George!
Already I am dressing it up as a Cutlass in my head ... hmmmmm.
Mikey! Whazzup? You've been lurking here and I am very happy about that.

Regards,
 Dean

[MikeyPratt]

Welcome George!
Already I am dressing it up as a Cutlass in my head ... hmmmmm.
Mikey! Whazzup? You've been lurking here and I am very happy about that.

Regards,
 Dean

Hi Deno,  That would make a really good name for a new stunter!!!!   Whazzup sounds new and kind of edgy, can I use it?  Yea, a Navy Blue Cutlass would be way cool!  Even Keith T. wants to build one to look like a M.E. 163.  I'm back to designing and building again, and man I'm kind of pumped up with this whole electric thing.  Even though I've been fly electric R/C for years and know a lot about it, there is always more to learn.

Later,
Mikey

[Bill Little]

HI Mikey,

Last time we talked you were hinting that the plans might be available before long.  Are they ready yet? 

Thanks!
Bill

[Crist Rigotti]

Hi Mikey!

[Jim Hoffman]

Just to point out,  this is no sport ship.  It is a competitive Stunter. 

I had the pleasure of a few flights on the glo engine prototype of the Delta Force a few years ago.  I was most impressed and saw no reason it would not be competitive at Expert level competition.

Cheers,
Jim Hoffman

[MikeyPratt]

HI Mikey,

Last time we talked you were hinting that the plans might be available before long.  Are they ready yet? 

Thanks!
Bill

Hi Bill,
I need to do a few minor changes to the plan sheet, then draw a scratch builders sheet, then write the instruction book.  Then I can sell the plans (LOL).  I hope you are feeling well, it is really nice nice to hear from you again.

Later,
Mikey

 

[MikeyPratt]

Hi Mikey!

Hi Back Crist,

What's new old friend? 

[Bob Heywood]

Wild Bill would be pleased...

[Dean Pappas]

George,
There is no problem shortening any wires in the system.
Lengthening the wires from battery to ESC is generally a no-no.
lastly, it is best to route the signal wires, from timer to ESC, away from all the high-current wiring,
as fields from the high current wires could couple into the signal lead controlling the ESC.
This proximity doesn't often cause problems but when it does, they are sporadic and hard to nail down.
Dean

[Andrew Borgogna]

Mikey
When plans are available I would very much like to get a set.  It looks like a fun plane to have.
Andy

[George in Cedar]

Thanks you all for the nice comments.  Dean, thanks for the tip on shortening the wires in the system.  Given the short nose on the Delta Force, all of the extra wire length has to go somewhere.  That's one reason the ESC  is located so far back on the airplane.  Now I can trim the wires and get the ESC right under the battery compartment opening and reduce the wire bundle. 

[MikeyPratt]

Mikey
When plans are available I would very much like to get a set.  It looks like a fun plane to have.
Andy

Hi Andy,
I will post it on Stunt Hanger when they are ready to send out.  Hopefully this spring, but we need to fly the electric version first and make sure it flies as expected.  The glow version is almost identical with the exception of the maple motor mounts.  So it shouldn't be a real problem.

Later,
Mikey

[John Cralley]

Hi George,

Wow that is one neat model!!

Given that you are using the KR timer, you can use many other ESCs rather than the CC ICE 50. Some of those others (cheap ones too) might fit in the cheek cowl. You would have to give up the data recording but this is just something to think about. Another down side of this idea is that you would have to run the power lines from the wing to the cowl but that looks to be well within the nominal ten inch rule of thumb for battery to ESC connecting length (and could be a neat arrangement). You might also have to open a cooling vent through the cowl.

Just a thought.

[George in Cedar]

Hi John.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I picked the ICE 50 because I thought that it might fit into the cowl.  When I ordered it I hadn't built the fuselage yet, so I wasn't sure of the volume I'd have to work with in the cowl.  After I built the cowl I found that it was about three-quarters of an inch long to get it into the  cowl.  Also, getting the larger wires behind the motor was a problem with such a short nose on the airplane.  I like your suggestion for a less expensive ESC.  The CC ICE isn't a cheap item compared to other ESC's I've seen.  Lots of nice features to be sure, but I'm not smart enough yet to appreciate them all. 

I did use the data logging when I first powered it up.  The motor would pulse once and then, nothing.  I learned a lot about the ICE 50 because I thought I had a compatibility problem with the KR timer.  After going through EVERY possible settings combinations on the ICE 50, I decided to try the data logging.  Then I noticed that the 'burp' was very low amplitude (power) and it finally dawned on me that if I wait longer (patience, George) that could be the issue.  Of course it was the issue.   I forgot that the KR timer has a 25 second (factory set and adjustable) delay between the initial 'burp' and the actual start-up.  I 'knew' that, I read it in the documentation, but promptly forgot it.  Everything was good.  My friend from Germany would say in his german accent, "it purrrrrrs like a schicken".  I think he meant kitten, but I'm not so sure. 

As  for the cooling vent in the cowl, there is one there now (see one of the photos above with the cheek on the table top) but I don't believe it would be enough to cool an ESC.  The timer hasn't shown any signs of overheating yet. 

Test flight day is approaching.  Snow pack is down to about six inches now and the temps are getting close to 40F during the days.  Maybe June. 

George

[john e. holliday]

With most people saying they are having to add weight to the nose  of their electric ships, wouldn't it be feasable to lengthen the nose some?

And Mikey, how much for a set of plans  for the IC version?

[MikeyPratt]

Just to point out,  this is no sport ship.  It is a competitive Stunter. 

I had the pleasure of a few flights on the glo engine prototype of the Delta Force a few years ago.  I was most impressed and saw no reason it would not be competitive at Expert level competition.

Cheers,
Jim Hoffman

Well Jim was there from the first test flight with the way under powered 40 and the single wheel version.  Some of that wasn't good at all.  Once I used the proper engine and switched it to tricycle landing gear, things really started to improve and only got better from there.  Everything was changed from line lengths, many different props, trim tabs, lots of nose weight to no nose weight, tip weights and so on.  In the end, it turned out to be a very competitive model. 

Later,
Mikey

[wwwarbird]

 Here's a few pics of Mikey's from the 2009 Sig contest...

[MikeyPratt]

Here's a few pics of Mikey's from the 2009 Sig contest...

Hi Wayne,

Thanks for posting the photos of the 1st Delta Force.  She is still a DGA (Dam Good Airplane) and it hangs proudly in my shop.  When George flies the electric D/F, this one is going along for inspiration (LOL).

Later,
Mikey 

[wwwarbird]

 Would be great to see them both in Polk City.