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Author Topic: Old Dog new ‘Trics; Fiorotti Timer Accelerometer Programming and Use  (Read 25437 times)

Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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Clarifying to all that my timer is proper development of both the hardware and the software so it is not any copy of Igor Burger system and that any similarity is purely coincidental.

I'm glad you're looking at my timer.


Rogerio Fiorotti

Offline Joe Yau

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Joe, I didn't quantify it that way.  I was in a hurry to get the initial rough rpm setting and used mostly charged batteries, but not all equal.  I could not make sense of the rpm numbers. The KR timer I had used read rpm from a sensing wire and it didn't seen to matter even if I set rpm with a flight used battery.  I fortunately found out on the ground that consistent voltage is important in trying to establish an rpm. Just charge your batteries to your flight level, that will be to full charge for most, and then always the same.  Since I would do a tach run for say 30 seconds or a bit more, I learned to change to a different topped battery each time.  I have enough battery left that I could probably charge to 4.15 and then adjust back to lap time, but not motivated enough.

In practice, I set the rpm about 200 rpm less than with KR and after that adjusted to flight speed or lap time.

I discussed this with Rogerio who noted that he suggests to always use a full battery, and added that note to the Castle ESC settings file on his site. I find that batteries always charged to the same level work, even if not full.

Thanks for the insight..  I've tried using full battery, but it didn't help getting the rpm I need for the flight.   The problem I'm having is I can't get the rpm up high enough for 5.2 lap.  (mostly around 5.5 -5.8 ) well just once at (5.33), that when I put in a few hundred nose up clicks for the rpm.. but then the 4-2 function feature was totally dead.. both nose up & nose down!    

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Thanks for the insight..  I've tried using full battery, but it didn't help getting the rpm I need for the flight.   The problem I'm having is I can't get the rpm up high enough for 5.2 lap.  (mostly around 5.5 -5.8 ) well just once at (5.33), that when I put in a few hundred nose up clicks for the rpm.. but then the 4-2 function feature was totally dead.. both nose up & nose down!    
I dont use this timer, bu ton an observational note, are you sure you have enough voltage available to allow the rpm ( based upon the KV of your motor)
also make sure your ESC is not inhibiting the rpm
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Joe Yau

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I dont use this timer, bu ton an observational note, are you sure you have enough voltage available to allow the rpm ( based upon the KV of your motor)
also make sure your ESC is not inhibiting the rpm

Hi Mark,

Yes, it was fine with the Hubin Timer..  was very stable, just that it didn't have the braking feature to hold the speed in the wind. (It is a 5 cell setup with the Cobra 3520-12, 820Kv.)

Offline Fred Underwood

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Good thought Mark.  I assumed, not a great idea, that the power train combo was tested and used as probably Hubin, so the voltages/cell counts were adequate.

The only time that I had similar problems where I could not make sense of rpm changes of lack thereof was when I didn't have all batteries at the same charge, my flight charge so thet every setting was from a different voltage.  Seems that both Joe and MM have eliminated that.  And then I found that after the flashes of nose up for raising rpm, or down to decrease, that I occasionally for got to set the plane down, wait for the light to come on (usually it was back on almost immediately) and then push the button for rapid flashes to store. Especially at first, I forgot that step and then obviously the number of flashes didn't matter.  For me, user error :)
Fred
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Offline Joe Yau

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And then I found that after the flashes of nose up for raising rpm, or down to decrease, that I occasionally for got to set the plane down, wait for the light to come on (usually it was back on almost immediately) and then push the button for rapid flashes to store. Especially at first, I forgot that step and then obviously the number of flashes didn't matter.  For me, user error :)

I do watch for the series of flashes after the rpm changes are made to confirmed it is recorded.  at this point.. I think this timer might be more suited for the 4cell setup then 5 cells.  where you could use larger diameter prop and slightly more pitch so it will work at lower rpm.

I also find that when it is near the top of the rpm limits, the 4-2 nose up speed increase feature gets less and less to eventually zero speed gain(regardless to settings), then leaving nose down speed decrease only.  then if you keep increase the rpm more, the nose down will eventually be non functional as well.  and if you want a little nose up speed increase feature to work.. you’ll have to reduce the rpm and likely to end up with too slow of a lap speed (with my setup 5.5 lap).  I also notice the nose down speed decrease is not symmetrical at this stage, as it reduce speed about 3 times more on outside turn vs the insides. a little scary in the wind at times.   and if you back off on the rpm setting (out of the near peak range).. everything will start to work more normal. but flys the plane way too slow.  

Offline Motorman

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That makes allot of sense and explains what I've been experiencing. I have a prop that needs to turn 10,100 rpm to get a 5.1 lap time and once I got it there, the rpm change feature reduced dramatically. I think this system likes the higher pitched props like a 6 pitch would be good.

However, my max rpm setting is only on 5 out of 10, would raising it to 8 or 9 solve the problem?

Also, I found if you want to increase rpm, hold it nose up, then nose down, then nose up again then adjust. It helps the sensor get in the right position.

Keep the info coming.

MM

Offline Fred Underwood

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Even with 5 cells under load, you should have at least say 3.4v/cell, times 5 is 17v times 820kv is 13,940 rpm.  Seems that you should get 10k easily.  Again, just me being specific, but you did change the throttle to simple and stayed out of rpm settings in the ESC?

MM, I don't remember your motor kv, if I knew. 

You can email or PM through SH and I will try to help.
Fred
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Offline Motorman

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Thanks Fred, 950 Kv  Eflight power 15 with edge lite 50 and 2500mah 4 cell. Prop is my own design fiberglass Giffy GX3 with 3 blades 11-4.5.

Joe, you won't see any series of flashes to confirm rpm change. You might be adjusting Max rpm? When you first plug in the battery and hold the button do you wait for the 2nd multi flash before releasing the button?

Also, you need a fully charged battery for EVERY rpm adjustment and then you need to take a flight so the system can calibrate. It looks like it's calibrating on the ground but it's not. Want to make another adjustment, you need another fully charged battery and take another flight. I set the flight time to 1 minute so I can re-charge the batteries real quick.

I'm still figuring this out too, thanks for sharing notes.

MM

« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 09:30:58 PM by Motorman »

Offline Fred Underwood

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Joe, you won't see any series of flashes to confirm rpm change. You might be adjusting Max rpm? When you first plug in the battery and hold the button do you wait for the 2nd multi flash before releasing the button?

Also, you need a fully charged battery for EVERY rpm adjustment and then you need to take a flight so the system can calibrate. It looks like it's calibrating on the ground but it's not. Want to make another adjustment, you need another fully charged battery and take another flight. I set the flight time to 1 minute so I can re-charge the batteries real quick.

MM

You will get a series of rapid flashes when you store the rpm setting.  After setting, you push the button in when the plane is back to level and get the rapid sequence to store, then unplug.  I ran a tach run, and then if needed, used a fresh battery and did another run, a few times if needed, without flying.  When done and close enough to fly, and setting stored, then you can fly and calibrate.  If your last tach run was long and you think that it falsely calibrated on the ground, do the sequence again with 1 flash or down of rpm, don't tach and fly to calibrate.  Perhaps merely entering the set rpm mode but not changing will  trigger a calibration, but I didn't do that and can't confirm.
Fred
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Offline Joe Yau

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950 Kv  Eflight power 15 with edge lite 50 and 2500mah 4 cell.

Joe, you won't see any series of flashes to confirm rpm change. You might be adjusting Max rpm? When you first plug in the battery and hold the button do you wait for the 2nd multi flash before releasing the button?


MM


Hi Motorman,

I'm just adjusting the rpm for the run only, not the max rpm or min for the accelerometer sensor. which I have to keep the button down till the second series of flashes. release, then wait for the solid led, then nose up for to increase the rpm, then put in the desire clicks,  then hold plane level, I think the led comes on again as a indicator its ready to record, then click to record. then you'll see a series of flash, then remove arming plug.

Offline Motorman

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Joe, that is correct and yes you will get a multi flash when you store the setting. Funny you're not getting the rpm increase you put in. The setting might not take if the sensor doesn't fully cycle for nose up that's why I go nose down first then bring it up. At least it seemed to work for me or maybe I just got lucky lol.

Anyway, I flew this morning and after a great deal of settings/flying/recharging I was finally getting 5.2 sec/lap but no 4-2-4 rpm change as I was flying.

I came back out in the afternoon with fully charged battery and bumped up setting #4 (4-2-4 effect) from 7 to 10 and took a 2 minute flight, still not working and lap times dropped to 5.5 sec/lap so, I set #4 on 12 and took another 2 minute flight on the last of the battery still no 4-2-4 effect and laps time were even slower at 5.8 sec/lap. So, it's not holding the setting I had this morning and even changes flight to flight.

The only thing I can do at this point is start all over with a higher pitched prop and run less rpm because everything was working at lower rpm it just wasn't fast enough and more pitch should fix that.

MM

Offline Joe Yau

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Joe, that is correct and yes you will get a multi flash when you store the setting. Funny you're not getting the rpm increase you put in. The setting might not take if the sensor doesn't fully cycle for nose up that's why I go nose down first then bring it up. At least it seemed to work for me or maybe I just got lucky lol.

The rpm does increase. but then it slows back down in a later flight.  

Quote
Anyway, I flew this morning and after a great deal of settings/flying/recharging I was finally getting 5.2 sec/lap but no 4-2-4 rpm change as I was flying.

I came back out in the afternoon with fully charged battery and bumped up setting #4 (4-2-4 effect) from 7 to 10 and took a 2 minute flight, still not working and lap times dropped to 5.5 sec/lap so, I set #4 on 12 and took another 2 minute flight on the last of the battery still no 4-2-4 effect and laps time were even slower at 5.8 sec/lap. So, it's not holding the setting I had this morning and even changes flight to flight.

That sounds familiar..  Its most likely the rpm setting is peaked out.  If you back off about 25-30 clicks, it should start to work again.. I've done that a few times.  

« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:22:06 AM by Joe Yau »

Offline Fred Underwood

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I came back out in the afternoon with fully charged battery and bumped up setting #4 (4-2-4 effect) from 7 to 10 and took a 2 minute flight, still not working and lap times dropped to 5.5 sec/lap so, I set #4 on 12 and took another 2 minute flight on the last of the battery still no 4-2-4 effect and laps time were even slower at 5.8 sec/lap. So, it's not holding the setting I had this morning and even changes flight to flight.

MM

If I am reading this correctly, you took the second flight on the second half of the charge, not on a new battery.  If so, what do you suppose your timer saw as a starting voltage to base the functions on.  Start flights and rpm setting on a fresh charge :)


MM, email sent
Fred
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Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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Friends,

Some tips that you should follow so that the timer function properly.

Whenever you start a flight the battery should be fully charged, and you use more than one all should be with the same load to ensure the same basic RPM (target trotlle).

ESC programming has to be exactly as I mentioned using Castlelink and laptop with Field Link portable programmer not work;

Sensor installation must be correct close attention to connections.


Rogerio

Offline Motorman

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Re-charge the exact same battery for every flight? 


Offline Joe Yau

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Friends,

Some tips that you should follow so that the timer function properly.

Whenever you start a flight the battery should be fully charged, and you use more than one all should be with the same load to ensure the same basic RPM (target trotlle).

ESC programming has to be exactly as I mentioned using Castlelink and laptop with Field Link portable programmer not work;

Sensor installation must be correct close attention to connections.


Rogerio



 I don't think that really address the issues we are having above.


« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 12:13:47 AM by Joe Yau »

Offline Fred Underwood

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More of the blind leading the blind, me in both cases.  I just had a contest in considerably more wind than I have much experience in.  Practice day on Friday had wind, in the timeframe that I flew, of 9 mph and gusts to 17, or 12 with gusts to 18.5.  Those numbers bracket my practice time slot, care of  WeatherUnderground readings at the airport.  The wind seemed more like the higher gust value with some drops to the lower.  Saturday had a bit less wind and gusts, though there were a few moments.
 
The timer values started where I flew the first event noted above.  I practiced some since the first event some with 4(tilt) and 6(high limit of centripetal acceleration) each one number higher, but elected to use the previous settings.  After practice on Friday, 4 went back up one number and one flash of RPM added.  That all proved still a bit slow with some softness of lines at times during the contest.
 
One observer commented that while he heard the timer function, that it didn’t seem to be doing much.  It was still helping control windup reasonable well, though that, deceleration, was not so well heard.
 
Yesterday the wind at home was fairly comparable, wind of 9 starting and 11 – 12 mph,  5 flights later.  Gusts much higher, 15 to start and 19 noted at the end, though those gust numbers were from a calibrated phone app, so may be suspect.  It felt similar to what I had just been in.
 
First flight was a repeat of contest numbers and felt about the same, a little soft.  Flights 2 and 3 were with a number up on high limit, a number that I wish I had stayed with from before. Flight 4 and 5 were yet a number higher on 6 limit, and better, and I didn’t press my luck further with the wind.  The plane had better line tension the whole flight, and no slack overhead. I didn’t want to change number during a contest and without practice and evaluation.  During my first flights learning the timer, I had not liked the higher limits and felt that the corners could get almost too fast, and a bit less smooth.  It will now be interesting to see how those settings feel on a fairly calm day.  It becomes apparent that flying an accelerometer has a different feel, and there is a learning curve even when all is working well.
 
No variation in the  number of laps left at the end of the flights, so no variation of overall lap times, other than the change I made from practice by adding rpm, and perhaps a bit more lap with raising of the limit 6.  Of course raising 6 would let the timer add more rpm when needed.  It is quite easy to field adjust without tach or instructions once familiar.  Again, blind me leading blind me, but I think that using the most aggressive settings that one can adapt to with consistency may prove to be better than using what first feels easy and helpful.  Stress on the consistency part, but let the timer work.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 04:23:00 PM by Fred Underwood »
Fred
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Offline Fred Underwood

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I was able to use the same settings with less wind, more like 3 - 6 mph, and the plane felt fine.  Seems like I have gotten accustomed to the timer accelerating and decelerating and can use higher limits.  Perhaps not yet optimal, a good reason to practice.
Fred
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Offline Joseph Daly

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Fred,
What are your current setting on the timer?
Thanks
Joe

Offline Fred Underwood

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Joe, happy to share, but the values may not help much. 

Cobra 3520-14 700kv
APC 13x4.5 F2B cut to 12.25
6 Cell 2700

Settings  4@6  5@12  6@8  7@10 and base rpm about 10,000

Settings also affected by the physical placement of the accelerometer as that can play into sensitivity.  On the other hand, the relative values may be of use.  I would start with 4@5,6,or 7 and not go overboard on 5 until you get an idea from flying, listening, and datalogging, how sensitive the accelerometer feedback is based on position.
Fred
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Offline Joseph Daly

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Thanks Fred.
I have flown it with the programmed setting. I really like its performance. I wanted to try a more aggressive setting. I will give yours a try.

Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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Hi Joe

What is your setup?


Rogerio.

Offline Joseph Daly

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Cobra 3515/14 950kv
4s 3650 HV Hyperion or 3700 zippys
Castle ice lite 50
Setting for timer
4@6
5@7
6@5
7@7
RPM about 10k
11x5.5 3 blade carbon prop (Alan's)
About 5.0 laps on 62ft lines
The Plane is a Bob Hunt Rounder

Offline Joe Yau

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Cobra 3515/14 950kv
4s 3650 HV Hyperion or 3700 zippys
Castle ice lite 50
Setting for timer
4@6
5@7
6@5
7@7
RPM about 10k
11x5.5 3 blade carbon prop (Alan's)
About 5.0 laps on 62ft lines
The Plane is a Bob Hunt Rounder


 Is the 62' eyelet to eyelet?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 09:51:19 PM by Joe Yau »

Offline Joseph Daly

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Yes

Offline Motorman

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Joe, what are the settings on your Ice Lite 50?


Thanks,
MM

Offline Joseph Daly

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It is set per the instructions from Rogerio.

Offline Joe Yau

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Joe, what are the settings on your Ice Lite 50?


Thanks,
MM

I believe the Rounder's Airframe is only 560 sq in, and its on 62' i>i lines..  my Saturn is 650 sq in, on 65' lines.  also I'm running pretty much the same prop (11x5.5 3-blade).  that could be why he is getting 5.0 sec lap, and I'm at 5.5 sec lap (with rpm peaked out on the timer)

Offline Paul Walker

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Dear Rogerio Fiorotti,
the fact that i am silent the last month's it doesn't mean that i don't read and notice about your post and webpages.
I would like very politely and delicate to warn you about your timer, advertisement, introduction, information, showing pictures (especially graphics)!
Active timer of Igor Burger has copy rights! As well information in max bee webpage and gee bee indoor webpage.
I would like to let you know that the fact, He (we) shared since many years information about our products and mostly here for stunt hanger community is for non commercials goals. But everything else which goes over that level and limit, it can happened so to underwear low and person who started it, it will be taken as formal responsibility person.
We understand your creativity and tries to represent something which cl stunt people can use, but i would like to be also well understand it - that i found your way for not the popper and correct one. Honestly some "copy paste" work for me is truly visible and i assumed that certainly the set up, which you represent as working - it doesn't!
At the end with very friendly feelings i would like to ask to be more kind and more polite in representing your ideas and especially adverds. as product!
Sincerely,
Tatyana Uzunova




His documentation of the "regulation curve" looks very familiar. Tanya has a good point here.

Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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His documentation of the "regulation curve" looks very familiar. Tanya has a good point here.


As an engine seems to be the same as another, but it is not.

Rogerio.

Offline Fred Underwood

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"Saved by the bell" might now be "saved by the light."  I've been flying by charging to 4.17V and still using only about 75% battery.  I wanted to have more RPM without affecting the headroom for acceleration, or actually increasing headroom, so upped the charge and started at a slightly voltage.  That allowed 3 clicks lower rpm setting for the same lap time.  I initially guessed on the rpm setting and didn't want a long flight that was too fast or slow, so set the timer minutes back to 2. The lap time was good, as well as overhead speed, so I placed that battery on charge and put in a new battery.  Unfortunately, I forgot to reset the time, and started into the pattern.  It was a bit unnerving to get into the outside square going down and inverted, and see the warning light come on.  After the very brief first thought of timer failure came the reality of pilot failure.  Fortunately there is about 10 seconds of solid light, from blinking, until power off. Lesson learned, and I will pay attention to the light.
Fred
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Offline Motorman

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YES! I like the light warning system much better because, you don't lose rpm. Wish I could use mine. Any word on the Castle Creations fix?


MM

Offline John Tate

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I have been experimenting on getting consistent RPM settings on my Vector 40 with the Fiorotti timer. I started a little procedure of the following: Install a fully charged battery. Then install arming plug and press the START button. Place the tachometer on top of the fuselage just behind the prop. Wait for the max RPM and mentally record the reading (RPM reading should only last about 5 seconds). Then  press the START button to stop the motor and remove the arming plug. I have found out that a static RPM of 9000 will give provide a lap time of  a 5.2 seconds. The static RPM of 8900 will provide a lap time of 5.3 seconds. If the RPMs are within the 8900 to 9000, then I go ahead and fly. I just know that the Vector 40 needs a lap time of 5.2 to 5.3 seconds to have a nice flight.
 
I have three different brand of Lipo batteries and the RPMs are different for each one that is fully charged. If the RPMs are too high, then try the procedure again. Sometimes it takes 3 times to get the proper RPMs for the Vector 40. If the static RPM is too low, then try another battery.

I entered Advance PAMPA at Brodaks and did not have a chance to check the static RPM on the first round. I was listed number 3 in order to fly but, just when I was getting ready to do the static RPM check in the pit, the pit boss told me that I was next in the circle. The number two person inline did not show up. The first contestant was already in the circle flying. Anyway my air speed seem slow during take off. I timed the 4th lap. I looked at the watch and the lap time was 5.4 seconds. Way to slow for me. I flew the pattern anyway. The tops of the square maneuvers were soft. A low score showed that. The next day was round two. That made me the next to last to fly. At 8:30 AM the Vector 40 was place on John Brodaks driveway (nice and flat and level). A different fully charged battery was installed and the static RPM reading was jumping between 8900-9000. The START button was pressed and the arming plug was removed. At around 11:45 AM, I was on the circle and the arming plug was installed and then pressed the START button. The take off speed seemed to be fine. The 4th lap was timed at 5.22 seconds. A better score resulted. So now I do tachometer reading of the RPMs before each flight. Better safe than sorry.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 10:29:59 PM by John Tate »

Offline Crist Rigotti

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Why would the RPM change with different batteries?  Aren't these things run in governor mode where the RPM should be same between batteries?  Doesn't make any sense.
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Crist,
The ESC is used in the Control line throttle type and with simple governor.  In that use RPM is set with a tach or by lap time.  The RPM/head speed section is not used in the simple governor mode.  The timer then controls RPM.  My less than scientific understanding is that the base RPM and in flight accelerometer adjustments are controlled by pulse width.  Starting voltage and pulse width then factor into RPM.

The timer algorithms are written for specific governor modes, simple was chosen.

Sorry of that doesn't adequately explain, but it is my user understanding, and stretching that limit.
Fred

And I see that Rogerio already clarified and finished the thought about voltages and batteries :)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:33:17 PM by Fred Underwood »
Fred
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Offline Rogerio Fiorotti

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The ESC Castle governor mode set to single rpm is defined by the width of the PWM and the battery voltage after 1.5 seconds from the beginning. The timer PWM is initially fixed but the battery is not fixed, with different battery internal resistance will also be different so different voltages.

To always keep the same RPM fly with equal batteries (characteristics and manufacturers).


Rogerio

Offline John Tate

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Crist.
The one thing that I notice is that the more expensive batteries have less internal resistance. Even thou the digital volt meter will read the same voltage for the three different brand of batteries that I have. The problem is that I am not reading the voltage while the battery is under a load.

As stated earlier; the Castle ESC is setup in the simple mode. The timer does handle the RPMs.

I am still learning this equipment by trail and error. I really like when the accelerometer notices when the airplane is pulling up into a maneuver. My club members pick on me by telling me that I have spent a long time trying to get away from a Fox 35 and now I am trying to get my electric powered airplane to act like it was powered by a Fox 35.

Offline Crist Rigotti

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The ESC Castle governor mode set to single rpm is defined by the width of the PWM and the battery voltage after 1.5 seconds from the beginning. The timer PWM is initially fixed but the battery is not fixed, with different battery internal resistance will also be different so different voltages.

To always keep the same RPM fly with equal batteries (characteristics and manufacturers).


Rogerio

Hmmm...wow!
Crist
AMA 482497
Waxahachie, TX
Electric - The Future of Old Time Stunt

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Old Dog new ‘Trics; Fiorotti Timer Accelerometer Programming and Use
« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2016, 04:13:00 PM »
Just finished the last local contest of the season in the PNW.  I actually learned to use the batteries to help control rpm.  The "old" batteries (TP 2700's with about 75 cycles) give about a 0.05 - 0.08 second slower base lap time than the newer similar batteries.  Both will show 4.2V/cell just off of the charger.  After emails with Castle about the ESC and rereading here, I think the during the first 1.5 seconds that it takes the Castle ESC to determine the voltage, the old batteries drop slightly more under the load than the newer, so the same pulse width gives a bit lower rpm and corresponding lap time.

The older battery gave me a slower lap time for the different conditions, without changing the timer.  Over the last month, I have learned to reliably use old or new battery for what I want.  All of this will probably not be of much value to others as there is a new version of the timer becoming available.  I finished the season with V3 just as V4.1 is being shipped and I was not eager to change - old dog owner in this case.

I also am using a second V3 in another plane with similar motor, prop and line length and similar results.
Fred
352575


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