Author Topic: Old Dog new ‘Trics; Fiorotti Timer Accelerometer Programming and Use (Read 25484 times)

Fred Underwood · « **on:** April 18, 2016, 01:30:32 PM »

The old dog in this thread may be the airplane or its owner. The airplane is one of the series that Dave Denison and I built and they are similar to each other in that they share wing templates and have similar parameters of nose and tail moments and wing and thrust lines. The basic difference is the fuselage look, and construction, at times, from profile to built up fuse. This one an attempt to look Similar 2 the 70’s fuselages as well. Profile because it works for me to fly on Saturdays with Church on Sundays.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #1 on:** April 18, 2016, 01:32:58 PM »

Similar 2 is two years old and has about 850 flights, all but the last 75 – 80 with a KR timer system. The owner is still trying to learn and keep up, and decided to try the new ‘trics and found the thread on the Rogerio Fiorotti timer. A Castle Edge Lite 50 ESC was acquired along with the Fiorotti Timer. It seems that there may be only 4 users in the US, all relatively new, so basic information included.

System shown here in reply 17 and 18

http://stunthanger.com/smf/timers-by-fiorotti/new-control-line-timer-by-fiorotti/

and more here on the Timer site

http://www.metaenergia.com.br/

That was about one month ago. Initially, it was a trial for a new build so the temporary home.

The bottom photo shows the timer moved from the back of the battery housing to the old switch position under the battery housing.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2016, 01:55:07 PM »

So how do you like it? Did you fly with it on Saturday?

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #3 on:** April 18, 2016, 02:19:09 PM »

Yes, I flew with it. I have used it for a month without anyone noticing. Better question is how did the judges like it - oh yeah, that was you. And thank you for your comments.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2016, 02:34:19 PM »

Install, set up and use to follow. Hopefully with enough help for those who might be interested.

I found it fairly easy to transition from KR as both use button and lights. If I had only known early on and used Edge lite ESCs, that expense would have been covered. A good transition for those already using Castle ESC's.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2016, 02:50:09 PM »

I've been OK with the Hubin timers.

And for any wondering, this plane is awesome. The pilot is pretty good, too.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2016, 07:58:16 PM »

Thank you Randy for the kind words about the dog, or dogs.

I don't have a good comparison as to the Hubin, not used one, but I use about 5 - 7% less battery than I did before. I am not sure how that will hold over the course of a season and wind conditions, but good so far, and I have tried some wind in practice with the same settings.

As I get time, I will post a few further pictures of the install, and then talk through the set up and thoughts on flying.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2016, 10:23:25 PM »

The Accelerometer pad is about 0.65" wide and the 4 prong plug from the sensor is about 0.4" wide. The allowable fuselage is 0.75" behind the wing TE, and most are 0.75" after the front section. A tunnel was made in the fuse by temporary removal of the bottom, and a housing box cut into the fuse side. If the opposing fuse side is thinned appropriately, then the 0.65" pad can sit inside the fuse with a box cover on one side. Photos demonstrate a method useful for installation in a profile fuse.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2016, 10:28:49 PM »

And then putting it back together in the following photos, and then to paint the cover white. Set up and use will follow now that it is housed.

Motorman · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2016, 11:54:37 AM »

Fred, did you have to move the sensor around to find the spot that worked. Looks like yours is much farther back than mine. I wonder how critical that is because I just stuck it on the balance point and it worked fine.

MM

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** April 19, 2016, 08:12:13 PM »

The Fiorotti Timer uses an Accelerometer to adjust power as needed. Functions include, in non-engineer terms and hopefully correct

1) Start delay in seconds
2) Time in minutes to be used with 3
3) Time in seconds
4) Sensitivity for "424" which is rpm gain or possible reduction based on "tilt" or angle of the sensor
5) Increased or decreased rpm sensitivity based on centripetal acceleration
6) Limit of rpm increase of 5
7) Limit of rpm decrease of 5

and base RPM adjustment.

Defaults are preset as a starting point.

In addition, sensor placement is a variable.

And finally, an ESC is required, Castle suggested, and some programming is needed and values are provided as starting points.

As MM found, the timer and sensor can be used essentially as sent. I tried a different approach as the rpm default in particular concerned me. A tachometer reading showed around 9600 rpm if I recall correctly, but that is not an exact set, but battery cell number/voltage, motor and Kv, and perhaps prop dependent. Before heading to the field, the rpm was adjusted as per the website video to about 10,300 - 10,400 rpm, the previously used value. That also provided a basic understanding of the programming sequence.

It is somewhat difficult to describe and understand the programming without having any demonstration, but the rpm video may be helpful. The rpm video shows the rapid sequence flashing that is encountered in setting rpm, and in entering function programming. Best observed to be understood, so if you are trying to understand, look at the video for rpm. Flying with all default settings is fine, but, the time for default was 3 minutes and 20 seconds. Specifically short to allow the user to figure lap times or rpm, and battery usage over 3 minutes and 20 seconds and then calculate what 5 minutes and your choice of seconds will bring. No use in killing a battery from too fast rpm for too long. I found that the best way to learn the function setting was to repeatedly set minutes until comfortable. Minutes because that was the only change along with rpm to get a basically good full pattern flight.

Setting rpm requires holding the start button in until you have observed two sequences of rapidly flashing lights. There is a several second delay between the two sequences, so expect that. That can be observed on the video. To enter the function section, hold the button through the first sequence and then release and then wait a few seconds. The timer will then self interrogate and show defaults. Function number is the number of long flashes and the actual setting is the number of short flashes following and the timer will continue self interrogation through the seven functions. My concern was function 3, minutes and the 3 long flashes was followed by 3 short or more rapid flashes. Once the timer cycled through a time or two, I begin to understand the sequence. It is then a matter of holding the button in at the start of the function/flashes that you wish to change. The long flashes and short will go as usual, button still in, and then release the button. After giving you the current setting, the short flash sequence then repeats and you press the button at the desired number of flashes. Let the timer continue briefly, then you can unplug to store the setting. I then re-interrogate to make sure that I have what I want. While very wordy and tedious to describe, it is easily done after first couple of times quickly and without difficulty at the field.

Hopefully this will help in addition to instructions on the site, written in Portuguese and then translated, Google or similar.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2016, 08:22:49 PM »

MM,
IIRC, the suggested sensor position was 30 - 40 mm behind the bellcrank pin. That did not happen to work well for me on the wing, but that may have been the issue. I will post more on sensor location over the next days. It may be the ideal position for you.

Great to see that you had a good experience.
Fred

Curare · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2016, 08:28:50 PM »

Fred, is that a pink foam core in that profile?

Is that full length?

Sorry for the off topic question

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2016, 08:32:46 PM »

IIRC, pink foam, 1.25 lb/cu foot, from trailing edge forward, too heavy for tail end when compared to triangulation of balsa.

Curare · « **Reply #14 on:** April 19, 2016, 09:40:29 PM »

Interesting, I'll have to try that one day.

I'm looking forward to reading flight reports of the new system!

Motorman · « **Reply #15 on:** April 19, 2016, 10:30:08 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on April 19, 2016, 08:12:13 PM

Setting rpm requires holding the start button in until you have observed two sequences of rapidly flashing lights. There is a several second delay between the two sequences. To enter the function section, hold the button through the first sequence and then release and then wait a few seconds.

The timer will then self interrogate the current settings. The function number is the number of long flashes and the actual setting is the number of short flashes following. The timer will continue self interrogation through the seven functions then repeat.

Once the timer cycled through a time or two, I begin to understand the sequence. It is then a matter of holding the button in at the start of the function/flashes that you wish to change. My concern was function #2, minutes. The 3 long flashes were followed by 3 short rapid flashes indicating 3 minutes.

The long flashes and short will go as usual, button still in, and then release the button. After giving you the current setting, the short flash sequence then repeats and you press the button at the desired number of flashes. Let the timer continue briefly, then you can unplug to store the setting.

I rearranged your post a little bit to help me understand, tell me if I got it right.

You had me until that last paragraph. Let me see if I understand. You push the button and hold it to choose a function and it keeps repeating the current setting of that function until you release the button. Then it keeps repeating the max number of flashes for that function so you can count out the number you want and press the button to choose?

MM

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #16 on:** April 20, 2016, 02:48:31 PM »

MM,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Hopefully the PM helped. After a few reads of what you wrote, I think that the question or difference is mostly in regard to how long to hold the button in. I release the start button after the long and first couple of short flashes for a function. If only 2 short flashes, such as with seconds, then it may be for the whole time. I believe that after the interrogation cycle, the flashes are then all short waiting for the user to chose the desired number. The full number will recycle if you don't chose. I have not tried and am not sure what happens if you continue to hold the button in. I am sure that you could try it without harm, as it could easily be done since one might not remember the current setting and still have the button in when you come to the end of the actual short flashes. As noted, I let off after a couple of short flashes. My guess is that you would be in the full range in flashes even with the button in, but not sure.
Fred

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #17 on:** April 20, 2016, 03:27:38 PM »

First flights were interesting as hearing the prop noise change and realizing that the timer/accelerometer is actually reassuring and a bit mesmerizing at first. As mentioned I did a few short flights to assess amperage usage and make adjustments, and then went to 5 minutes 20 seconds. I started with the sensor taped to the undersurface of the inboard wing because of easy access, and about 40 mm behind the bellcrank pin as suggested by Rogerio. The flight was a bit fast and the outside loops were definitely faster than inside. Inverted level seemed a little faster than upright. An early datalog from the Castle confirmed, see below.

If not familiar, the top line is rpm, and the pattern maneuvers are sequential across the graph. Under is ESC temperature, then amp usage. More data is available as a choice on the datalogger, and in particular, throttle response which demonstrates accelerometer/timer function, but then rpm is an adequate reflection. With a little imagination and a straight line through the center of the inverted flight section an rpm increase of about 100 - 150 over the initial upright laps is noted, also confirmed on an actual datalog with the cursor reading rpm at a given point. Much more apparent is the elevated line without much slowing in the outside loops versus insides.

Since the timer accelerometer does not have functions to adjust for that, sensor placement issues seemed likely. Again, the sensor was taped to the inboard wing bottom, smooth side up. Figure the tapers of a symmetrically tapered wing, the sensor was mounted with enough angle(s) to need adjustment. The wing high point is fairly close to that 30 - 40 mm suggested location and I thought that the calibration might tare that out so to speak, but not so. Without any rocket science or engineering skills, leveling the sensor to a wing center line seemed reasonable. In reality, leveling helped, but to get to even upright and inverted/inside and outside, the sensor ended up being a bit off level in the opposite directions. A couple of shims were tried until the desired results.

Also on the original datalog was an end amperage usage of 1.87 amp hours. RPM was higher than desired, faster lap time, so for future rpm was lowered with lower amp usage.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #18 on:** April 20, 2016, 03:54:41 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on April 20, 2016, 03:27:38 PM

Without any rocket science or engineering skills, leveling the sensor to a wing center line seemed reasonable. In reality, leveling helped, but to get to even upright and inverted/inside and outside, the sensor ended up being a bit off level in the opposite directions. A couple of shims were tried until the desired results.

Make sure that you're not compensating for your whole plane being tilted -- vertical CG or flap tweak could cause a general tilt one way or another, which would require the shimming you describe to overcome.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** April 20, 2016, 04:36:08 PM »

Good thought Tim. This particular plane has about 850 flights and hopefully enough observers to have seen that already. I believe that it is flying in correct attitudes (hopefully the old dog owner has the properly adjusted attitude as well).

I should add that there is a bit more information that I would have added later. The wing shim was about 3/32 higher at the high corner. Once the sensor was moved into the fuse on a carefully leveled slot, that shim is only 1/32 higher at the high corner, but noticeable if 1/32 different more up or down to flat.

The new datalog showed improvement, but still slightly high rpm on outsides, below

Motorman · « **Reply #20 on:** April 21, 2016, 07:16:44 AM »

Fiorotti told me the 40mm from the balance point was a max measurement not a starting point.

MM

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #21 on:** April 21, 2016, 10:47:02 AM »

MM,
I started at about 40 mm "from the bellcrank pivot point" as noted in the instructions, and the crank is already a bit behind the balance point. My crank is well behind the balance point/CG which has moved forward. When I initially had differential rpm as above, I tried a different point just to see if it made much difference, and it did not in my case. As described, there was some sensor tilt adjustment. Since it didn't make a problem having is back, I used that position as it made the internal mount into the fuse easier. The cheek/light ply mounts extend back as you can see in an early photo above. I believe that Rogerio has given safe well working reliable instructions. That location may balance well with the default settings and be most trouble free. If it all works well at 40 mm and is easily accessible, no reason to try to move. It may mean a change is sensitivity is necessary to balance the change in position.

How did setting changes go?
Fred

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #22 on:** April 21, 2016, 11:03:53 AM »

The Fiorotti Timer site at "com.br" has only been intermittently working in the last couple days. Hopefully quickly fixed, and will be moved in the future. If you need to contact Rogerio, PM through SH still seems to work.

Motorman · « **Reply #23 on:** April 21, 2016, 04:09:42 PM »

I successfully changed the flight time, now I need to change the flight speed.

MM

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #24 on:** April 21, 2016, 04:16:16 PM »

For me every time I accessed the site www.metaenergia.com.br worked properly, the site provider could not explain the problem reported by Fred, but hopefully stabilize.

Tomorrow will be doing video on changing the timer programming, so you're ready I notice everyone.

Rogerio Fiorotti

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #25 on:** April 21, 2016, 04:27:16 PM »

MM
If you changed the time, then you are in the functions and all should be fairly straight forward now. The instructions for rpm along with the video are fairly easy to follow. It will be interesting to hear further flight reports.

Rogerio,
After your post I got on the site again for the first time in 2 days. Perhaps something with my computer though all else seems ok. I mostly just wanted people to know how to contact you if they had problems with the site.

Fred

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2016, 05:06:35 PM »

After initial setup flights were done to try to tune the system for my preferences. This system is very flexible with adjustment of item #4 the "424" a graded rpm change with angle change and blended with #5 rpm change based on centripetal acceleration. The system is quite usable out of the box after adjustment of appropriate rpm and flight time, but curiosity prevailed about what could and could not be done.

If 4 is set very low or off, then angle changes are essentially eliminated and centripetal acceleration controls. Flown this way with advanced sensitivity of 5 and high limits of 6 and 7 were fun, but can get past practical. A significant rpm can be seen, felt, and heard in the corners to a point of becoming a little unsettling of the airplane. That can be blunted with limits mostly of 6. The decrease of rpm seems less pronounced and has less need for limit, or allows a numerically higher limit (larger decrease of rpm). Flying more off of 4 with 5 desensitized gives good rpm for up and flying high, but gives little decrease in rpm; 4 functions better to add rpm than decrease. And finally, the base rpm is a factor as to how much rpm gain is needed. All fun to experiment with, but time was getting short before the first contest.

I should note that the datalog graphs are not good to tell much about 4 and 5 changes, except to note rpm. You obviously don't get a feeling of timing of the power/rpm gain or decrease from the graph.

The datalogs below show first a lap time of about 5.25 with 4@5, 5@13, 6@8 and 7@10. Peak rpm got to 10,700 and level at about 10,100. The second datalog was the day before a contest when I somewhat foolishly changed settings late in the game with lap time to about 5.32 and base rpm about 9950, and 4@6, 5@12, 6@6 and 7@10 and peak rom got to 10,500 with less corner kick and a smooth flight. Fortunate late change for me.

Also note the throttle changes on the datalogs, changes by the accelerometer.

Using a blend of functions 4 and 5 with 5 limits (6 and 7), I feel that the rpm gain or decrease is well timed and easily controllable and helpful. Wind up is also manageable using 5 and a large number for 7 to allow a decrease in rpm.

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #27 on:** April 22, 2016, 09:29:11 AM »

Dear

Video timer programming mode, hope it helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GTiW7RjUlY&feature=youtu.be

http://www.metaenergia.com.br/crbst_2.html

Rogerio

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #28 on:** April 23, 2016, 12:06:43 PM »

If a picture is worth 1000 word, the video is worth much more. Programming was a bit difficult to describe. The programming video and rpm video make field changes very easy, thanks Rogerio.

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #29 on:** April 23, 2016, 12:54:13 PM »

At first I thought about doing something more advanced as using a box with display for programming, much easier to visualize but my challenge was to use one LED one Switch and lower cost.

I know that in the beginning is laborious adapt with LED flash but then is very practical.

Rogerio Fiorotti

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #30 on:** April 24, 2016, 02:29:30 PM »

It should be noted that a computer is not needed or desired, for most, at the field. In fact a computer may be needed only once to set the parameters in the ESC. The computer adapter is available from Castle for free with a purchase of a new ESC by emailing in a code, included in the package.

Datalogging was useful at the beginning, but mostly confirmed that my observations were correct. Most timer changes can be adjusted on the basis of observation and feel, to accommodate user desired feel and style of flying and the specifics of the airplane.

I fly with datalogging turned off. As annoying ticking was encountered and it seems to be a problem of the Castle ESC and some outrunner motors. An old reference to that was found in an old Castle FAQ section. A Castle rep initially stated that the problem was with the old Phoenix units, but it turned out to be still present with at least my particular combination of Castle Edge Lite 50 and Cobra 3520 14 motor. It does come and go with datalogging on and off. The Castle rep felt that it was not harmful, just nuisance. I am past much value from datalogging, so leave it and ticking off.

Motorman · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2016, 06:31:31 PM »

Make it so it works with the Hubin break out box and you're golden.

MM

John Tate · « **Reply #32 on:** April 24, 2016, 06:41:37 PM »

The RPM video that Rogerio did help me a great deal. At first the flight the lap times were too slow. I programmed the timer with one more "blink" and then the lap times were too fast. After watching the RPM video, the nose of the model was tilted down. I followed the instructions. On the next flight, the lap times were what I wanted. You just have to take you time and learn how to use this timer. Once you use it, you will enjoy it.

John Tate

Motorman · « **Reply #33 on:** April 24, 2016, 07:22:51 PM »

So the difference is when you change flight time you blink in a certain number then push but when you change speed you just push once to add or subtract speed depending if the nose is up or down?

The video is a little confusing because at first he raises the nose then lowers the nose. Do you have to do it this way or was he just showing nose up for increase and down for decrease?

If you push once to raise the speed then fly and you want to raise the speed again do you push once again or, do you push twice or, will pushing twice raise the speed twice as much as the first time?

Thanks,
MM

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #34 on:** April 24, 2016, 07:39:48 PM »

MM

In the video shows the operation of how to change the engine rpm, notice the LED lights in the positions up (increase rpm), down (lower rpm) and level (record).

In any position you must click START, eg to increase rpm put the nose up click START how many times you feel necessary, level the plane and click START to record.

If to decrease rpm nose down, and do not forget of leveling and START to record.

Rogerio.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #35 on:** April 25, 2016, 07:51:45 PM »

Today I flew in variable wind of about 0 - 10 and all directions except from the south, of course, not away from the sun. I decided that the lap time was a bit slow for comfort in all of the variability - about 5.35. After 2 flights with the lines still on the plane, a fresh battery was mounted, the timer held for the 2 rapid flash sequences, then the plane held nose up for one button push, then back on the ground and the ready light on. Button pushed for the rapid flash noting memory storage and battery disconnected. That was quicker and easier than my typing of the description.

Flight then confirmed lap time of 5.29, actually 52.94 for 10 laps.

For the MM question above, if more speed change is desired, the sequence and number of flashes starts over at the new level.

I have made changes to the functions numbers similarly, according to their instructions, with the plane on the lines and ready. A couple of practice runs relaxed at home made that easy. Rpm practice changes done and checked with a tach, and function changes done and confirmed by interrogating the functions.

John Tate · « **Reply #36 on:** May 10, 2016, 11:19:30 AM »

It is still kite flying weather here on the east coast of Virginia. The average wind here is around 10 MPH. I am having trouble with the model speeding up, (wind-up), while approaching the bottom of the loops. This really screws up my timing. On a few calm days that I have, the model flies fine in the loops. I only have 5 steps for programming the timer. I emailed Fred Underwood and found out he has 7 steps on his version. The newer version looks like it will limit the RPM and help prevent wind-up in the loops. Anyone having the same problem that I am having?

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #37 on:** May 10, 2016, 03:07:34 PM »

John

With this version only you and the winner of the draw.

If you want to send with the new version free of cost, we shall treat it by e_mail ok?

Rogerio

John Tate · « **Reply #38 on:** May 10, 2016, 06:00:35 PM »

I went out and flew a couple of times today in mild winds that were around 7 to 9 MPH. There was no wind-up in the loops in mild wind conditions. Now I really enjoy this timer/accelerometer setup. I just had to learn how to set it up. When you are used to doing things the old way, it is hard to learn something new. I can see why Fred titled this tread " Old Dog new Trics". For only having a wind-up problem in loops during high winds is a minor thing to me. Rogerio just sent me an email and is helping me out. We just need to get more control line modelers to try out this timer/accelerometer setup so there will be a large data base to learn from.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #39 on:** May 12, 2016, 05:12:01 PM »

The last few outings have had alternating weather, 10 - 12 mph wind and 0 - 4 mph wind. Fortunately the timer has performed well as I gain experience. When flying in the wind the plane will gain about 2 laps by the end of the flight with the non-wind setting. 2 laps is about 10.5 seconds and there are approximately 61 laps, or lap equivalents, in 320 seconds so the gain is about 0.15 seconds/lap. Knowing that a flash of rpm gives about half of that, 2 flashes of slowing mostly corrected the lap time and made the whole flight better. If the speed for a lap goes up, more so for the maneuver as the accelerometer adds. The other settings were left untouched. I might use a third flash for wind in the 15 mph range, but easy enough to tweak after the conditions are known.

The next day, I flew a flight with the "wind setting" and it was much too slow, could barely do overheads. 2 flashes of faster rpm solved it. Next windy outing I used 2 flashes of decreased rpm before even flying and that seemed perfect, and next slow day, corrected back with 2 flashes of added rpm.

I have seen others with different systems change props and make other adjustments, including IC. Adjusting the "needle" up or down seems an easy solution. Interesting that before the Fiorotti system, I also gained 2 laps in the wind but then without the addition of accelerometer input, I liked the added speed. That speed is not necessary of desirable with the accelerometer making adjustments.

Wind-up seems well controlled with this system once adjusted for speed. Some have said that flatter pitch and 3 blades props also help, but this seems ok with the 13 x4.5 F2B prop, slightly trimmed for prop clearance, running in the 10K range.

Motorman · « **Reply #40 on:** May 22, 2016, 10:50:38 AM »

How many times do you have to push the button to get an rpm increase of 1000 rpm? I'm trying to go from 8560 to 9560. From what I've been doing looks like an increase of 10 rpm for every push so, do I have to push it 100 times?

Next question. If I'm flying good at 9560 with the Hubin FM9 timer how much less rpm can I run with the Fiorotti timer.

Thanks,
MM

Howard Rush · « **Reply #41 on:** May 22, 2016, 01:22:06 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on May 12, 2016, 05:12:01 PM

...13 x4.5 F2B prop, slightly trimmed for prop clearance, running in the 10K range.

My system has an auto-prop-trim feature that works on takeoff. It works well with an APC. I hope not to use it on an Igor.

Motorman · « **Reply #42 on:** May 22, 2016, 02:38:06 PM »

I was able to get the rpm adjustment I needed. I just had to get a feel for how many times to push it for X rpm change.

I was winner of the draw and mine has 7 adjustments. The last 2 are min and max rpm which are still at factory default of 5 blinks. I haven't flown in high wind so I don't about the wind up. But I'll be playing with those settings next if it ever stops raining.

I can hear it power up at 45 degrees in a wing over and power down at 45 degrees on the down side. Pretty cool.

MM

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #43 on:** May 22, 2016, 03:25:09 PM »

A little trial and error is a fairly quick way to get the answer, and I see that you have.
An explanation then rather than an answer. The numeric rpm change/flash can vary based on several factors including base rpm, number of cells in pack, prop, base voltage and probably more than I am recalling right now. That said, what I recommend is that you stooge or tie the plane down on a bench and get a tach and get comfortable. Have batteries charged to flight level. Tach the current rpm and then raise a few flashes and recheck rpm. After you are at about normal flying rpm, then bump up or down a couple of flashes and tach, and get an approximate rpm/flash change. As an approximation, I am probably in the 75 - 100 rpm/flash range.

Be sure after doing the nose up or down flashes to have the system record the change, get the last rapid flash, not just unplug.

Always set rpm with a battery charged to the same point that you would for flying. Changing voltage, or using a partially spent battery will not give reliable results. This means that after you set and tach, use another fresh battery for the next rpm change.

Start with about the same rpm as you would usually use. You may already know how many laps you get after a normal pattern. That should be fairly consistent. If not already known, then take note for a starting point. For emphasis, start the first flights with the same rpm normally used until you are satisfied that the timer is roughly set for your feel. It will likely be too fast level, but better than too slow. Fly short flights until you get some data on lap time and battery usage. No reason to over use a battery trying to shorten the learning curve.

Now please be patient with the explanation. Once you are close, you don’t need a tach. Set by laptime, or just by flying style and feel, as follows.

320 seconds, a fairly normal flight time has about 320/laptime laps, or “lap equivalents.” Sorry for the made up term, but that is about 60 or 61 5.2 second intervals. If I change a lap time by about 0.1 seconds, I then gain or subtract just over 1 lap, 60 x 0.1 is 6 seconds. My plane flies well at about 4 – 6 laps after the clover. I can still manage at about 2 laps and from what I recall, that is about 5.4+ seconds and 6 laps left is in the 5.15 – 5.2 second laptime range.

If a lap is divided into 52 intervals of 0.1 seconds then 9600 rpm needs a change of 9600/52 to change 0.1 second. about 180 rpm is about 0.1 second lap time change.

Short version,
find the rpm/flash change
note the number of laps consistent after a full pattern
Appropriate number of flashes to add or subtract time based on laps remaining.

Real short version
slow about 150 – 300 rpm from previous flight
But don’t start there until you see how the plane is flying. A 5 minute flight too slow to do anything but survive is not fun.

And Howard, I also have the auto-prop-trim and have used it a few too many times. When I noted that I trimmed for prop clearance, I didn't note the method. Even the KR had that feature. But, do you also have auto-prop-balance?

Motorman · « **Reply #44 on:** May 22, 2016, 08:14:55 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on May 22, 2016, 03:25:09 PM

Always set rpm with a battery charged to the same point that you would for flying. Changing voltage, or using a partially spent battery will not give reliable results. This means that after you set and tach, use another fresh battery for the next rpm change.

Are you saying different voltages will give you different amounts of rpm change per number of pushes?

I just make my adjustment then check it with a tach after it re-sets. I can repeat several times with the same battery. If there's a difference from battery voltage in how many times you have to push the button to get X rpm it doesn't matter to me as long as I get the rpm I want.

MM

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #45 on:** May 22, 2016, 08:38:32 PM »

Number of flashes doesn't matter. If I run for tach settings I change the battery after each run. If not, I believe that you may get a difference from your test when you use a fresh battery at full voltage at the field. In addition, remember that the timer needs to calibrate at the new setting while flying level. If you run about 20ish seconds for tach run, it may think that is has calibrated, but that will be with no centripetal acceleration sitting on a stand. If you don't get a solid light for about 3 laps, it is not calibrating. You can force a calibration run by raising the rpm, or lowering, one flash and then flying. The calibration light is noticeably longer than "gear" light.

An example of above is that I charge to 4.17volts/cell, not 4.2. If I put a 4.2v charged pack, I get a different run, and not subtle. Similarly, if I start a flight with a pack after a 30 second tach run, then I could get a different rpm for that flight.

At the field, I may set the rpm up or down with appropriate flashes, then store and not check with a tach. Essentially no mah are used for setting, so the flight is normal, starting at normal voltage. I only used the tach to approximate the initial beginning rpm.

If you datalog, you will get a reasonable rpm reading from the log.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #46 on:** May 24, 2016, 07:59:05 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on May 22, 2016, 08:38:32 PM

An example of above is that I charge to 4.17volts/cell, not 4.2. If I put a 4.2v charged pack, I get a different run, and not subtle. Similarly, if I start a flight with a pack after a 30 second tach run, then I could get a different rpm for that flight.

Hi Fred,

Just wondering how much does the run varies in lap speed with your set up? (4.17V vs 4.2V)

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #47 on:** May 24, 2016, 09:17:43 PM »

Joe, I didn't quantify it that way. I was in a hurry to get the initial rough rpm setting and used mostly charged batteries, but not all equal. I could not make sense of the rpm numbers. The KR timer I had used read rpm from a sensing wire and it didn't seen to matter even if I set rpm with a flight used battery. I fortunately found out on the ground that consistent voltage is important in trying to establish an rpm. Just charge your batteries to your flight level, that will be to full charge for most, and then always the same. Since I would do a tach run for say 30 seconds or a bit more, I learned to change to a different topped battery each time. I have enough battery left that I could probably charge to 4.15 and then adjust back to lap time, but not motivated enough.

In practice, I set the rpm about 200 rpm less than with KR and after that adjusted to flight speed or lap time.

I discussed this with Rogerio who noted that he suggests to always use a full battery, and added that note to the Castle ESC settings file on his site. I find that batteries always charged to the same level work, even if not full.

Motorman · « **Reply #48 on:** May 25, 2016, 07:37:52 AM »

I went out yesterday with 3 fully charged batteries and made 3 adjustments for more rpm. Before adjustments flight speed was 5.60 previous day. 1st flight 4 pushes nose up then 5.40, 2nd flight 8 pushes nose up then 5.50, 3rd flight 10 pushes nose up then flight started at 5.60 then slowed to 5.80.

After 2-3 level laps there was no perceived increase in rpm and flight was timed every other lap on a 2 minute flight of level laps.

Today I'm checking the settings on the esc and cleaning all connections and will try again.

MM

Tania Uzunova · « **Reply #49 on:** May 25, 2016, 07:59:19 AM »

Dear Rogerio Fiorotti,
the fact that i am silent the last month's it doesn't mean that i don't read and notice about your post and webpages.
I would like very politely and delicate to warn you about your timer, advertisement, introduction, information, showing pictures (especially graphics)!
Active timer of Igor Burger has copy rights! As well information in max bee webpage and gee bee indoor webpage.
I would like to let you know that the fact, He (we) shared since many years information about our products and mostly here for stunt hanger community is for non commercials goals. But everything else which goes over that level and limit, it can happened so to underwear low and person who started it, it will be taken as formal responsibility person.
We understand your creativity and tries to represent something which cl stunt people can use, but i would like to be also well understand it - that i found your way for not the popper and correct one. Honestly some "copy paste" work for me is truly visible and i assumed that certainly the set up, which you represent as working - it doesn't!
At the end with very friendly feelings i would like to ask to be more kind and more polite in representing your ideas and especially adverds. as product!
Sincerely,
Tatyana Uzunova

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #50 on:** May 25, 2016, 08:17:01 AM »

Clarifying to all that my timer is proper development of both the hardware and the software so it is not any copy of Igor Burger system and that any similarity is purely coincidental.

I'm glad you're looking at my timer.

Rogerio Fiorotti

Joe Yau · « **Reply #51 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:10:25 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on May 24, 2016, 09:17:43 PM

Joe, I didn't quantify it that way. I was in a hurry to get the initial rough rpm setting and used mostly charged batteries, but not all equal. I could not make sense of the rpm numbers. The KR timer I had used read rpm from a sensing wire and it didn't seen to matter even if I set rpm with a flight used battery. I fortunately found out on the ground that consistent voltage is important in trying to establish an rpm. Just charge your batteries to your flight level, that will be to full charge for most, and then always the same. Since I would do a tach run for say 30 seconds or a bit more, I learned to change to a different topped battery each time. I have enough battery left that I could probably charge to 4.15 and then adjust back to lap time, but not motivated enough.

In practice, I set the rpm about 200 rpm less than with KR and after that adjusted to flight speed or lap time.

I discussed this with Rogerio who noted that he suggests to always use a full battery, and added that note to the Castle ESC settings file on his site. I find that batteries always charged to the same level work, even if not full.

Thanks for the insight.. I've tried using full battery, but it didn't help getting the rpm I need for the flight. The problem I'm having is I can't get the rpm up high enough for 5.2 lap. (mostly around 5.5 -5.8 ) well just once at (5.33), that when I put in a few hundred nose up clicks for the rpm.. but then the 4-2 function feature was totally dead.. both nose up & nose down!

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #52 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:21:32 PM »

Quote from: Joe Yau on May 25, 2016, 12:10:25 PM

Thanks for the insight.. I've tried using full battery, but it didn't help getting the rpm I need for the flight. The problem I'm having is I can't get the rpm up high enough for 5.2 lap. (mostly around 5.5 -5.8 ) well just once at (5.33), that when I put in a few hundred nose up clicks for the rpm.. but then the 4-2 function feature was totally dead.. both nose up & nose down!

I dont use this timer, bu ton an observational note, are you sure you have enough voltage available to allow the rpm ( based upon the KV of your motor)
also make sure your ESC is not inhibiting the rpm

Joe Yau · « **Reply #53 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:42:03 PM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on May 25, 2016, 12:21:32 PM

I dont use this timer, bu ton an observational note, are you sure you have enough voltage available to allow the rpm ( based upon the KV of your motor)
also make sure your ESC is not inhibiting the rpm

Hi Mark,

Yes, it was fine with the Hubin Timer.. was very stable, just that it didn't have the braking feature to hold the speed in the wind. (It is a 5 cell setup with the Cobra 3520-12, 820Kv.)

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #54 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:43:52 PM »

Good thought Mark. I assumed, not a great idea, that the power train combo was tested and used as probably Hubin, so the voltages/cell counts were adequate.

The only time that I had similar problems where I could not make sense of rpm changes of lack thereof was when I didn't have all batteries at the same charge, my flight charge so thet every setting was from a different voltage. Seems that both Joe and MM have eliminated that. And then I found that after the flashes of nose up for raising rpm, or down to decrease, that I occasionally for got to set the plane down, wait for the light to come on (usually it was back on almost immediately) and then push the button for rapid flashes to store. Especially at first, I forgot that step and then obviously the number of flashes didn't matter. For me, user error :)

Joe Yau · « **Reply #55 on:** May 25, 2016, 02:57:47 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on May 25, 2016, 12:43:52 PM

And then I found that after the flashes of nose up for raising rpm, or down to decrease, that I occasionally for got to set the plane down, wait for the light to come on (usually it was back on almost immediately) and then push the button for rapid flashes to store. Especially at first, I forgot that step and then obviously the number of flashes didn't matter. For me, user error

I do watch for the series of flashes after the rpm changes are made to confirmed it is recorded. at this point.. I think this timer might be more suited for the 4cell setup then 5 cells. where you could use larger diameter prop and slightly more pitch so it will work at lower rpm.

I also find that when it is near the top of the rpm limits, the 4-2 nose up speed increase feature gets less and less to eventually zero speed gain(regardless to settings), then leaving nose down speed decrease only. then if you keep increase the rpm more, the nose down will eventually be non functional as well. and if you want a little nose up speed increase feature to work.. you’ll have to reduce the rpm and likely to end up with too slow of a lap speed (with my setup 5.5 lap). I also notice the nose down speed decrease is not symmetrical at this stage, as it reduce speed about 3 times more on outside turn vs the insides. a little scary in the wind at times. and if you back off on the rpm setting (out of the near peak range).. everything will start to work more normal. but flys the plane way too slow.

Motorman · « **Reply #56 on:** May 25, 2016, 04:31:25 PM »

That makes allot of sense and explains what I've been experiencing. I have a prop that needs to turn 10,100 rpm to get a 5.1 lap time and once I got it there, the rpm change feature reduced dramatically. I think this system likes the higher pitched props like a 6 pitch would be good.

However, my max rpm setting is only on 5 out of 10, would raising it to 8 or 9 solve the problem?

Also, I found if you want to increase rpm, hold it nose up, then nose down, then nose up again then adjust. It helps the sensor get in the right position.

Keep the info coming.

MM

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #57 on:** May 25, 2016, 04:42:51 PM »

Even with 5 cells under load, you should have at least say 3.4v/cell, times 5 is 17v times 820kv is 13,940 rpm. Seems that you should get 10k easily. Again, just me being specific, but you did change the throttle to simple and stayed out of rpm settings in the ESC?

MM, I don't remember your motor kv, if I knew.

You can email or PM through SH and I will try to help.

Motorman · « **Reply #58 on:** May 25, 2016, 04:55:32 PM »

Thanks Fred, 950 Kv Eflight power 15 with edge lite 50 and 2500mah 4 cell. Prop is my own design fiberglass Giffy GX3 with 3 blades 11-4.5.

Joe, you won't see any series of flashes to confirm rpm change. You might be adjusting Max rpm? When you first plug in the battery and hold the button do you wait for the 2nd multi flash before releasing the button?

Also, you need a fully charged battery for EVERY rpm adjustment and then you need to take a flight so the system can calibrate. It looks like it's calibrating on the ground but it's not. Want to make another adjustment, you need another fully charged battery and take another flight. I set the flight time to 1 minute so I can re-charge the batteries real quick.

I'm still figuring this out too, thanks for sharing notes.

MM

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #59 on:** May 25, 2016, 05:05:38 PM »

Quote from: Motorman on May 25, 2016, 04:55:32 PM

Joe, you won't see any series of flashes to confirm rpm change. You might be adjusting Max rpm? When you first plug in the battery and hold the button do you wait for the 2nd multi flash before releasing the button?

Also, you need a fully charged battery for EVERY rpm adjustment and then you need to take a flight so the system can calibrate. It looks like it's calibrating on the ground but it's not. Want to make another adjustment, you need another fully charged battery and take another flight. I set the flight time to 1 minute so I can re-charge the batteries real quick.

MM

You will get a series of rapid flashes when you store the rpm setting. After setting, you push the button in when the plane is back to level and get the rapid sequence to store, then unplug. I ran a tach run, and then if needed, used a fresh battery and did another run, a few times if needed, without flying. When done and close enough to fly, and setting stored, then you can fly and calibrate. If your last tach run was long and you think that it falsely calibrated on the ground, do the sequence again with 1 flash or down of rpm, don't tach and fly to calibrate. Perhaps merely entering the set rpm mode but not changing will trigger a calibration, but I didn't do that and can't confirm.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #60 on:** May 25, 2016, 05:18:02 PM »

Quote from: Motorman on May 25, 2016, 04:55:32 PM

950 Kv Eflight power 15 with edge lite 50 and 2500mah 4 cell.

Joe, you won't see any series of flashes to confirm rpm change. You might be adjusting Max rpm? When you first plug in the battery and hold the button do you wait for the 2nd multi flash before releasing the button?

MM

Hi Motorman,

I'm just adjusting the rpm for the run only, not the max rpm or min for the accelerometer sensor. which I have to keep the button down till the second series of flashes. release, then wait for the solid led, then nose up for to increase the rpm, then put in the desire clicks, then hold plane level, I think the led comes on again as a indicator its ready to record, then click to record. then you'll see a series of flash, then remove arming plug.

Motorman · « **Reply #61 on:** May 25, 2016, 09:26:05 PM »

Joe, that is correct and yes you will get a multi flash when you store the setting. Funny you're not getting the rpm increase you put in. The setting might not take if the sensor doesn't fully cycle for nose up that's why I go nose down first then bring it up. At least it seemed to work for me or maybe I just got lucky lol.

Anyway, I flew this morning and after a great deal of settings/flying/recharging I was finally getting 5.2 sec/lap but no 4-2-4 rpm change as I was flying.

I came back out in the afternoon with fully charged battery and bumped up setting #4 (4-2-4 effect) from 7 to 10 and took a 2 minute flight, still not working and lap times dropped to 5.5 sec/lap so, I set #4 on 12 and took another 2 minute flight on the last of the battery still no 4-2-4 effect and laps time were even slower at 5.8 sec/lap. So, it's not holding the setting I had this morning and even changes flight to flight.

The only thing I can do at this point is start all over with a higher pitched prop and run less rpm because everything was working at lower rpm it just wasn't fast enough and more pitch should fix that.

MM

Joe Yau · « **Reply #62 on:** May 26, 2016, 09:52:52 AM »

Quote from: Motorman on May 25, 2016, 09:26:05 PM

Joe, that is correct and yes you will get a multi flash when you store the setting. Funny you're not getting the rpm increase you put in. The setting might not take if the sensor doesn't fully cycle for nose up that's why I go nose down first then bring it up. At least it seemed to work for me or maybe I just got lucky lol.

The rpm does increase. but then it slows back down in a later flight.

Quote

Anyway, I flew this morning and after a great deal of settings/flying/recharging I was finally getting 5.2 sec/lap but no 4-2-4 rpm change as I was flying.

I came back out in the afternoon with fully charged battery and bumped up setting #4 (4-2-4 effect) from 7 to 10 and took a 2 minute flight, still not working and lap times dropped to 5.5 sec/lap so, I set #4 on 12 and took another 2 minute flight on the last of the battery still no 4-2-4 effect and laps time were even slower at 5.8 sec/lap. So, it's not holding the setting I had this morning and even changes flight to flight.

That sounds familiar.. Its most likely the rpm setting is peaked out. If you back off about 25-30 clicks, it should start to work again.. I've done that a few times.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #63 on:** May 26, 2016, 11:35:36 AM »

Quote from: Motorman on May 25, 2016, 09:26:05 PM

I came back out in the afternoon with fully charged battery and bumped up setting #4 (4-2-4 effect) from 7 to 10 and took a 2 minute flight, still not working and lap times dropped to 5.5 sec/lap so, I set #4 on 12 and took another 2 minute flight on the last of the battery still no 4-2-4 effect and laps time were even slower at 5.8 sec/lap. So, it's not holding the setting I had this morning and even changes flight to flight.

MM

If I am reading this correctly, you took the second flight on the second half of the charge, not on a new battery. If so, what do you suppose your timer saw as a starting voltage to base the functions on. Start flights and rpm setting on a fresh charge :)

MM, email sent

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #64 on:** May 26, 2016, 03:17:56 PM »

Friends,

Some tips that you should follow so that the timer function properly.

Whenever you start a flight the battery should be fully charged, and you use more than one all should be with the same load to ensure the same basic RPM (target trotlle).

ESC programming has to be exactly as I mentioned using Castlelink and laptop with Field Link portable programmer not work;

Sensor installation must be correct close attention to connections.

Rogerio

Motorman · « **Reply #65 on:** May 27, 2016, 07:29:18 AM »

Re-charge the exact same battery for every flight?

Joe Yau · « **Reply #66 on:** May 27, 2016, 07:56:30 AM »

Quote from: Rogerio Fiorotti on May 26, 2016, 03:17:56 PM

Friends,

Some tips that you should follow so that the timer function properly.

Whenever you start a flight the battery should be fully charged, and you use more than one all should be with the same load to ensure the same basic RPM (target trotlle).

ESC programming has to be exactly as I mentioned using Castlelink and laptop with Field Link portable programmer not work;

Sensor installation must be correct close attention to connections.

Rogerio

I don't think that really address the issues we are having above.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #67 on:** May 31, 2016, 06:00:21 PM »

More of the blind leading the blind, me in both cases. I just had a contest in considerably more wind than I have much experience in. Practice day on Friday had wind, in the timeframe that I flew, of 9 mph and gusts to 17, or 12 with gusts to 18.5. Those numbers bracket my practice time slot, care of WeatherUnderground readings at the airport. The wind seemed more like the higher gust value with some drops to the lower. Saturday had a bit less wind and gusts, though there were a few moments.

The timer values started where I flew the first event noted above. I practiced some since the first event some with 4(tilt) and 6(high limit of centripetal acceleration) each one number higher, but elected to use the previous settings. After practice on Friday, 4 went back up one number and one flash of RPM added. That all proved still a bit slow with some softness of lines at times during the contest.

One observer commented that while he heard the timer function, that it didn’t seem to be doing much. It was still helping control windup reasonable well, though that, deceleration, was not so well heard.

Yesterday the wind at home was fairly comparable, wind of 9 starting and 11 – 12 mph, 5 flights later. Gusts much higher, 15 to start and 19 noted at the end, though those gust numbers were from a calibrated phone app, so may be suspect. It felt similar to what I had just been in.

First flight was a repeat of contest numbers and felt about the same, a little soft. Flights 2 and 3 were with a number up on high limit, a number that I wish I had stayed with from before. Flight 4 and 5 were yet a number higher on 6 limit, and better, and I didn’t press my luck further with the wind. The plane had better line tension the whole flight, and no slack overhead. I didn’t want to change number during a contest and without practice and evaluation. During my first flights learning the timer, I had not liked the higher limits and felt that the corners could get almost too fast, and a bit less smooth. It will now be interesting to see how those settings feel on a fairly calm day. It becomes apparent that flying an accelerometer has a different feel, and there is a learning curve even when all is working well.

No variation in the number of laps left at the end of the flights, so no variation of overall lap times, other than the change I made from practice by adding rpm, and perhaps a bit more lap with raising of the limit 6. Of course raising 6 would let the timer add more rpm when needed. It is quite easy to field adjust without tach or instructions once familiar. Again, blind me leading blind me, but I think that using the most aggressive settings that one can adapt to with consistency may prove to be better than using what first feels easy and helpful. Stress on the consistency part, but let the timer work.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #68 on:** June 01, 2016, 04:26:36 PM »

I was able to use the same settings with less wind, more like 3 - 6 mph, and the plane felt fine. Seems like I have gotten accustomed to the timer accelerating and decelerating and can use higher limits. Perhaps not yet optimal, a good reason to practice.

Joseph Daly · « **Reply #69 on:** June 01, 2016, 04:49:16 PM »

Fred,
What are your current setting on the timer?
Thanks
Joe

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #70 on:** June 01, 2016, 05:49:17 PM »

Joe, happy to share, but the values may not help much.

Cobra 3520-14 700kv
APC 13x4.5 F2B cut to 12.25
6 Cell 2700

Settings 4@6 5@12 6@8 7@10 and base rpm about 10,000

Settings also affected by the physical placement of the accelerometer as that can play into sensitivity. On the other hand, the relative values may be of use. I would start with 4@5,6,or 7 and not go overboard on 5 until you get an idea from flying, listening, and datalogging, how sensitive the accelerometer feedback is based on position.

Joseph Daly · « **Reply #71 on:** June 01, 2016, 05:55:39 PM »

Thanks Fred.
I have flown it with the programmed setting. I really like its performance. I wanted to try a more aggressive setting. I will give yours a try.

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #72 on:** June 01, 2016, 06:26:22 PM »

Hi Joe

What is your setup?

Rogerio.

Joseph Daly · « **Reply #73 on:** June 01, 2016, 06:48:25 PM »

Cobra 3515/14 950kv
4s 3650 HV Hyperion or 3700 zippys
Castle ice lite 50
Setting for timer
4@6
5@7
6@5
7@7
RPM about 10k
11x5.5 3 blade carbon prop (Alan's)
About 5.0 laps on 62ft lines
The Plane is a Bob Hunt Rounder

Joe Yau · « **Reply #74 on:** June 02, 2016, 06:53:49 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Daly on June 01, 2016, 06:48:25 PM

Cobra 3515/14 950kv
4s 3650 HV Hyperion or 3700 zippys
Castle ice lite 50
Setting for timer
4@6
5@7
6@5
7@7
RPM about 10k
11x5.5 3 blade carbon prop (Alan's)
About 5.0 laps on 62ft lines
The Plane is a Bob Hunt Rounder

Is the 62' eyelet to eyelet?

Joseph Daly · « **Reply #75 on:** June 03, 2016, 05:53:24 AM »

Motorman · « **Reply #76 on:** June 03, 2016, 07:43:07 PM »

Joe, what are the settings on your Ice Lite 50?

Thanks,
MM

Joseph Daly · « **Reply #77 on:** June 03, 2016, 08:21:53 PM »

It is set per the instructions from Rogerio.

Joe Yau · « **Reply #78 on:** June 04, 2016, 08:38:26 AM »

Quote from: Motorman on June 03, 2016, 07:43:07 PM

Joe, what are the settings on your Ice Lite 50?

Thanks,
MM

I believe the Rounder's Airframe is only 560 sq in, and its on 62' i>i lines.. my Saturn is 650 sq in, on 65' lines. also I'm running pretty much the same prop (11x5.5 3-blade). that could be why he is getting 5.0 sec lap, and I'm at 5.5 sec lap (with rpm peaked out on the timer)

Paul Walker · « **Reply #79 on:** June 04, 2016, 12:30:30 PM »

Quote from: Tania Uzunova on May 25, 2016, 07:59:19 AM

Dear Rogerio Fiorotti,
the fact that i am silent the last month's it doesn't mean that i don't read and notice about your post and webpages.
I would like very politely and delicate to warn you about your timer, advertisement, introduction, information, showing pictures (especially graphics)!
Active timer of Igor Burger has copy rights! As well information in max bee webpage and gee bee indoor webpage.
I would like to let you know that the fact, He (we) shared since many years information about our products and mostly here for stunt hanger community is for non commercials goals. But everything else which goes over that level and limit, it can happened so to underwear low and person who started it, it will be taken as formal responsibility person.
We understand your creativity and tries to represent something which cl stunt people can use, but i would like to be also well understand it - that i found your way for not the popper and correct one. Honestly some "copy paste" work for me is truly visible and i assumed that certainly the set up, which you represent as working - it doesn't!
At the end with very friendly feelings i would like to ask to be more kind and more polite in representing your ideas and especially adverds. as product!
Sincerely,
Tatyana Uzunova

His documentation of the "regulation curve" looks very familiar. Tanya has a good point here.

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #80 on:** June 07, 2016, 10:37:22 AM »

Quote from: Paul Walker on June 04, 2016, 12:30:30 PM

His documentation of the "regulation curve" looks very familiar. Tanya has a good point here.

As an engine seems to be the same as another, but it is not.

Rogerio.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #81 on:** June 30, 2016, 07:50:26 PM »

"Saved by the bell" might now be "saved by the light." I've been flying by charging to 4.17V and still using only about 75% battery. I wanted to have more RPM without affecting the headroom for acceleration, or actually increasing headroom, so upped the charge and started at a slightly voltage. That allowed 3 clicks lower rpm setting for the same lap time. I initially guessed on the rpm setting and didn't want a long flight that was too fast or slow, so set the timer minutes back to 2. The lap time was good, as well as overhead speed, so I placed that battery on charge and put in a new battery. Unfortunately, I forgot to reset the time, and started into the pattern. It was a bit unnerving to get into the outside square going down and inverted, and see the warning light come on. After the very brief first thought of timer failure came the reality of pilot failure. Fortunately there is about 10 seconds of solid light, from blinking, until power off. Lesson learned, and I will pay attention to the light.

Motorman · « **Reply #82 on:** June 30, 2016, 10:27:54 PM »

YES! I like the light warning system much better because, you don't lose rpm. Wish I could use mine. Any word on the Castle Creations fix?

MM

John Tate · « **Reply #83 on:** July 01, 2016, 12:30:31 PM »

I have been experimenting on getting consistent RPM settings on my Vector 40 with the Fiorotti timer. I started a little procedure of the following: Install a fully charged battery. Then install arming plug and press the START button. Place the tachometer on top of the fuselage just behind the prop. Wait for the max RPM and mentally record the reading (RPM reading should only last about 5 seconds). Then press the START button to stop the motor and remove the arming plug. I have found out that a static RPM of 9000 will give provide a lap time of a 5.2 seconds. The static RPM of 8900 will provide a lap time of 5.3 seconds. If the RPMs are within the 8900 to 9000, then I go ahead and fly. I just know that the Vector 40 needs a lap time of 5.2 to 5.3 seconds to have a nice flight.

I have three different brand of Lipo batteries and the RPMs are different for each one that is fully charged. If the RPMs are too high, then try the procedure again. Sometimes it takes 3 times to get the proper RPMs for the Vector 40. If the static RPM is too low, then try another battery.

I entered Advance PAMPA at Brodaks and did not have a chance to check the static RPM on the first round. I was listed number 3 in order to fly but, just when I was getting ready to do the static RPM check in the pit, the pit boss told me that I was next in the circle. The number two person inline did not show up. The first contestant was already in the circle flying. Anyway my air speed seem slow during take off. I timed the 4th lap. I looked at the watch and the lap time was 5.4 seconds. Way to slow for me. I flew the pattern anyway. The tops of the square maneuvers were soft. A low score showed that. The next day was round two. That made me the next to last to fly. At 8:30 AM the Vector 40 was place on John Brodaks driveway (nice and flat and level). A different fully charged battery was installed and the static RPM reading was jumping between 8900-9000. The START button was pressed and the arming plug was removed. At around 11:45 AM, I was on the circle and the arming plug was installed and then pressed the START button. The take off speed seemed to be fine. The 4th lap was timed at 5.22 seconds. A better score resulted. So now I do tachometer reading of the RPMs before each flight. Better safe than sorry.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #84 on:** July 01, 2016, 02:17:44 PM »

Why would the RPM change with different batteries? Aren't these things run in governor mode where the RPM should be same between batteries? Doesn't make any sense.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #85 on:** July 01, 2016, 05:04:00 PM »

Crist,
The ESC is used in the Control line throttle type and with simple governor. In that use RPM is set with a tach or by lap time. The RPM/head speed section is not used in the simple governor mode. The timer then controls RPM. My less than scientific understanding is that the base RPM and in flight accelerometer adjustments are controlled by pulse width. Starting voltage and pulse width then factor into RPM.

The timer algorithms are written for specific governor modes, simple was chosen.

Sorry of that doesn't adequately explain, but it is my user understanding, and stretching that limit.
Fred

And I see that Rogerio already clarified and finished the thought about voltages and batteries :)

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #86 on:** July 01, 2016, 05:28:02 PM »

The ESC Castle governor mode set to single rpm is defined by the width of the PWM and the battery voltage after 1.5 seconds from the beginning. The timer PWM is initially fixed but the battery is not fixed, with different battery internal resistance will also be different so different voltages.

To always keep the same RPM fly with equal batteries (characteristics and manufacturers).

Rogerio

John Tate · « **Reply #87 on:** July 01, 2016, 08:35:20 PM »

Crist.
The one thing that I notice is that the more expensive batteries have less internal resistance. Even thou the digital volt meter will read the same voltage for the three different brand of batteries that I have. The problem is that I am not reading the voltage while the battery is under a load.

As stated earlier; the Castle ESC is setup in the simple mode. The timer does handle the RPMs.

I am still learning this equipment by trail and error. I really like when the accelerometer notices when the airplane is pulling up into a maneuver. My club members pick on me by telling me that I have spent a long time trying to get away from a Fox 35 and now I am trying to get my electric powered airplane to act like it was powered by a Fox 35.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #88 on:** July 01, 2016, 08:37:44 PM »

Quote from: Rogerio Fiorotti on July 01, 2016, 05:28:02 PM

The ESC Castle governor mode set to single rpm is defined by the width of the PWM and the battery voltage after 1.5 seconds from the beginning. The timer PWM is initially fixed but the battery is not fixed, with different battery internal resistance will also be different so different voltages.

To always keep the same RPM fly with equal batteries (characteristics and manufacturers).

Rogerio

Hmmm...wow!

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #89 on:** October 10, 2016, 04:13:00 PM »

Just finished the last local contest of the season in the PNW. I actually learned to use the batteries to help control rpm. The "old" batteries (TP 2700's with about 75 cycles) give about a 0.05 - 0.08 second slower base lap time than the newer similar batteries. Both will show 4.2V/cell just off of the charger. After emails with Castle about the ESC and rereading here, I think the during the first 1.5 seconds that it takes the Castle ESC to determine the voltage, the old batteries drop slightly more under the load than the newer, so the same pulse width gives a bit lower rpm and corresponding lap time.

The older battery gave me a slower lap time for the different conditions, without changing the timer. Over the last month, I have learned to reliably use old or new battery for what I want. All of this will probably not be of much value to others as there is a new version of the timer becoming available. I finished the season with V3 just as V4.1 is being shipped and I was not eager to change - old dog owner in this case.

I also am using a second V3 in another plane with similar motor, prop and line length and similar results.