Author Topic: New Twin well under way (Read 11188 times)

Bob Hunt · « **on:** February 28, 2010, 08:42:35 PM »

Hi all:

Just thought I'd give a progress report on my new twin electric design. I'm working on it quite a bit and hope to have it at the Nats.

It will be powered by either two E-Flite Park 480 motors or two E-Flite Power 10 motors. Provisions will be made to mount either set. The projected weight - with battery on board - is 59 ounces and... it has retracts!

Attached are a few photos of the model under construction.

Later - Bob Hunt

wwwarbird · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:53:38 PM »

Lookin' good!

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2010, 10:05:06 PM »

Hi Bob, That looks stunning so far. I love the wing. Can you let us have the weight of the wing as it is so far in the pic with the carbon veil? By the way.....where is the pic with the rudder fin??

Keith R

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2010, 06:32:06 AM »

Hi Keith:

The wing - ready to install - with flaps, tips, leadout guide, tip weight box, controls and carbon weighed 9.9 ounces. The fuselage with all the molded shells ready to install weighed 2.7 ounces. Yes, I'm using up a good portion of my best wood on this project. I just realized that I am now 62 and really should start using that stuff!

I'm planning on using the new Hyperion batteries in this one. They are reputed to be able to be charged at a C5 rate. Not sure that I will go that far, but maybe i'll give C3 a try. Should be able to cut back just a bit on how many batteries I need to take to the field. The 4S2P 4000 mAh pack they have is priced around $100.00. That's far less than the Thunder Power 3850 V2 extremes that I'm using now. They are getting a great reputation with the RC Ducted Fan guys...

I'm not sure if I'm going to use the tail assembly pictured. It is light for its size at 2.5 ounces with horn and hinges, but it may be just a bit twisty. I'll have to carbon it and see how stiff it gets before I make a final decision.

Again, the projected all-up weight is 59 to 60 ounces with battery on board. That equates to a 53 to 54 ounce glow ship without 6 ounces of fuel on board...

This is a project that I've had in mind even before electric power became viable. I have been sketching twins for 50-plus years, but just never took the leap. I've spoken with Gordan Delaney - the recognized twin expert in the glow world - on several occasions and picked his brain on the technical aspects of designing one. It was, however, our moderator, Dean Pappas who finally convinced me that this is the time to try one. There are so many advantages to an electric twin. You can counter rotate the props and try them in both opposing directions. There were several full-size twins in which the props rotated outward on either side of the fuselage. The P-38 is a good example of this. I'll try them both ways and the beauty of this setup is that I can try that experiment right at the field. It is no big deal to reverse the rotation of the motors and just switch the props. Also, the spiral airflow problems ahould cancel out. I'll get 22 inches of "wetted" area of air blast due to the 11 inch props I intend to use. This disk area comes without the attendant problems of spiral airflow and prop ground clearance issues.

All in all this is a project that is keeping my interest peaked!

Later - Bob Hunt

P.S. Attached are a few more photos. I needed to get the wire harness for the motors and the retracts out to the nacelles. I rolled a balasa tube araound a dowel and than used that dowel wrapped with sandpaper to make a perfect radius in the nose of each of the cuffed area's ribs to accept the tube. It is now actually an additional spar! The "cuffed" area was employed to put the wire harness tunnel well ahead of the bellcrank and leadout so there would be no interference issues. Besides, it looks cool! - Bob

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #4 on:** March 01, 2010, 11:37:23 AM »

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info. That wing is certainly very light. It sure looks light, so that's why I asked. This is a marvellous project, and something in true "Bob Hunt" tradition. I can't wait to see how it looks when its put together. I've also drawn plans for twins, but that's as far as it goes. I spoke to Gilbert Beringer at the 2004 world champs in Muncie, and although his twin 4-banger was beautifully built and very innovative, it did not fly very well in my humble opinion. Gilbert is a top-notch pilot, and the model certainly did not perform to his usual standard. Maybe his design was just too close to being a scale model.

What I would also like to know is how you calculate the required power. If you would normally use a .60, do you simply divide by 2 and use two .30's? Is there some basic formula that you use? If I think about Paul Walker's famous B-17 that I saw in France in 2000, the four .15 engines sure looked more powerful than a .60. I'm pretty sure that a single .60 wold not fly the bomber like that.

The last twin that I drew, was a twin boom style twin with a push-pull arrangement like the Cessna Skymaster. The nice thing about this, is that you can use a standard tractor prop running backwards in the rear. Pusher props cost more and the range is also limited, so this made some sense to me. Anyway, your project will maybe inspire me to actually have a go at this. I'm sure that you will keep us posted. Thanks for sharing.

Keith R

Matt Colan · « **Reply #5 on:** March 01, 2010, 12:29:41 PM »

Very cool Bob!!! Looking foward to seeing the finished product, especially a twin with retracts!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #6 on:** March 01, 2010, 03:53:17 PM »

WAAAAAY cool! Guess we'll find out just what all this cool stuff CAN do

Howard Rush · « **Reply #7 on:** March 01, 2010, 08:31:33 PM »

Very cool, Bob.

Quote from: Bob Hunt on March 01, 2010, 06:32:06 AM

I just realized that I am now 62 and really should start using that stuff!

I'll be 64 in a couple weeks. Send me the rest of the good balsa.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #8 on:** March 01, 2010, 08:34:16 PM »

Like I said, I'm 62 and getting very absent minded and forgetful. Just who exactly is this Howard person and what makes him think I'd give him any balsa...

Bob Hunt

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #9 on:** March 01, 2010, 08:53:54 PM »

Bob and Keith:

The C-337 layout sounds like the "Two Bits" stunter from a few decades ago, that looks like a good electric planform. But what do you all think about a D0-335 type twin layout, with one tractor and one pusher in the tail, maybe different size motors and props? Less overall drag and centerline thrust. I know a semi-scale 335 has been flown, but I am envisioning a clean sheet of paper type twin, not a semi scale anything.

Since I too am 62 and have been hoarding good wood for ages I better use it while I still can hold a hobby knife steady. Sort of.

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #10 on:** March 01, 2010, 09:55:31 PM »

Hi Mike,

The DO-335 is interesting, but the rear motor so far from the C of G would maybe cause a few problems like Len Neuman's "barbell-effect". The tail end would also have to be beefed up as well. You could of course, stick the motor further forward and use a long shaft to the rear prop, but I think that would be too much like hard work. I also prefer the looks of the C-337 layout. I would still like to know about how to work out the power needed and prop size on twins.

BTW.......I turn 60 in August, and then I'll start feeling like Bob and Howard..........I just don't have hoards of good balsa!

Keith R

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2010, 07:02:52 AM »

Hi Keith:

You asked the following in a previous post:

"What I would also like to know is how you calculate the required power. If you would normally use a .60, do you simply divide by 2 and use two .30's? Is there some basic formula that you use?"

Well, it's confession time. I really have no clue about how to calculate that! However, our trepid (or is that "tepid"...?) moderator, Dean Pappas should be able to spew out a bunch of brackets and symbols and equations and satisfy your inquiry. Every time Dean comes over I have to sweep up a bunch of mathmatical symbols that are left lying on the floor...

Bob

Here are a few more - earlier - photos of the twin under construction.

Bob

Matt Colan · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2010, 07:19:05 AM »

Bob, is this plane based on a full-sized airplane, or just your own design? I can't wait to see the finished product!

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2010, 07:40:54 AM »

Hi Matt:

I guess nothing is "totally original." This one is my interpretation and blending of many things I've liked about twins that I've seen over the years. You are far too young to remember the twin engine designs that were modified by the Army and Air Force in the 1960s. They, and a few dedicated twin designs, were dubbed "Coin Fighters" (Short for: Counter Insurgency Fighters). I was going to do this one in an aggressive pseudo military scheme and call it, "Coin Return." Alas when I bounced that name off of some friends - who were around in the 1960s - even they didn't get the connection and so that name was scrubbed.

By the way, your Oriental Plus is looking great! Just don't put on too much paint...

Bob

Mike Anderson · « **Reply #14 on:** March 02, 2010, 09:15:11 AM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on March 02, 2010, 07:02:52 AM

Hi Keith:

Every time Dean comes over I have to sweep up a bunch of mathmatical symbols that are left lying on the floor...

Bob

If you leave a couple of blank spreadsheets lying around, most of that stuff will stick to them - then just delete them ....

Howard Rush · « **Reply #15 on:** March 02, 2010, 06:49:34 PM »

Put the symbols in the box with the balsa and send them out. I'll put them to good use.

Bob, you are causing a little family friction here at the Rush household. My wife has been using you as an achievement example, e.g. that I haven't won the World Champs or had my own spy plane business, or the relative effort between your Lost Foam method of making slanty ribs and my Lost Time method. Just this morning she said, "Have you seen how clean Bob Hunt's shop is?" Slow down.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #16 on:** March 02, 2010, 07:43:27 PM »

He, he, he, now I have you where I want you Howard...

Show your wife these photos:

Bob

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #17 on:** March 02, 2010, 09:11:02 PM »

You guys should have seen that shop just a week before.

signed,
the troublemaker

Keith Renecle · « **Reply #18 on:** March 02, 2010, 09:59:24 PM »

Yeah......it's amazing what you can do with Photoshop these days!

Jealous

So Dean...........how do we work out what size motors and props for twins??

Keith R

John Witt · « **Reply #19 on:** March 03, 2010, 07:29:32 AM »

A clean shop is a sign of a sick mind

John W

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #20 on:** March 03, 2010, 07:48:39 AM »

John:

You have a tremendous grasp of the obvious.... My friends will vouch for that! $:-\$

Bob

Kim Doherty · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2010, 08:14:56 AM »

To see Bob clean up the shop ............ amazing!

To have Howard by the short and curly's ............. Priceless!!!

Kim.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2010, 01:42:11 PM »

Hi Kim:

Yeah, but I'm worried... It's not like Howard to offer up a soft ball like that. I fear he's just setting me up for a big one...

By the way, your "indoor Saturn" is very, very cool indeed!

On the Subject of Saturns, I'm now working on a dedicated electric Saturn design that will be similar to my old Saturn, but with a few new twists. Stay tuned for more news on that as I get a bit further along with it. The twin is taking up all my "free" time right now.

Later - Bob

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2010, 02:44:09 PM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on March 02, 2010, 07:40:54 AM

Hi Matt:

I guess nothing is "totally original." This one is my interpretation and blending of many things I've liked about twins that I've seen over the years. You are far too young to remember the twin engine designs that were modified by the Army and Air Force in the 1960s. They, and a few dedicated twin designs, were dubbed "Coin Fighters" (Short for: Counter Insurgency Fighters). I was going to do this one in an aggressive pseudo military scheme and call it, "Coin Return." Alas when I bounced that name off of some friends - who were around in the 1960s - even they didn't get the connection and so that name was scrubbed.

By the way, your Oriental Plus is looking great! Just don't put on too much paint...

Bob

What goes around comes around. Aviation Week had some recent articles about the COIN aircraft being brought back again to help in Afghanistan...

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2010, 12:06:35 PM »

Here is an early drawing of the side view of the twin. I've made a few subtle changes since this was drawn. I'll save those as a surprise for the Nats. Just imagine this design with an agressive military-like paint scheme...

Later - Bob

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:10:32 PM »

now that is just SICK!!! Awesome looking twin - LOVE IT!!!

Matt Colan · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2010, 03:10:39 PM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on March 04, 2010, 12:06:35 PM

Here is an early drawing of the side view of the twin. I've made a few subtle changes since this was drawn. I'll save those as a surprise for the Nats. Just imagine this design with an agressive military-like paint scheme...

Later - Bob

That is an INSANE twin!!!!!! Very slick, and cool looking

Edit: What airfoil is that Bob?

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #27 on:** March 05, 2010, 05:36:04 PM »

Hi Matt:

Thanks! The airfoil? Well, believe it or not that airfoil is a derivative of the one we used on Robby's Europa. I widened the center section "cuff" and it got a bit thicker at the root than the Europa. The Europa foil was a derivative of the original Genesis 35, so there is nothing really new here in that regard.

Bob

ptg · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2010, 06:02:11 PM »

In this photo I see you've put the Foam Brick(s) to use. Great idea.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #29 on:** March 05, 2010, 06:43:04 PM »

Hey PT! Welcome aboard!

Yup, I've found dozens of uses for the "Foam Bricks" in the shop.

Last night I installed the battery plate into the nose of the twin. A photo is attached. If you look closely you can see the balsa tube through which the wiring harness will pass to go to the inboard nacelle. I cut clearance in the side of the battery plate to allow the Deans Ultra connector to fir into the tube. Obviously the opposite side of the fuselage has the same treatment, but you can't see it in this photo. I'm trying to get something major accomplished each day. It's like eating an elephant - you do it one bite at a time... Later tonight i'll install the front retract mount.

I might be pestering you for some of them custom graphics for which you are famous...

Bob

John Sunderland · « **Reply #30 on:** March 06, 2010, 01:18:41 AM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on March 01, 2010, 06:32:06 AM

Hi Keith:

The wing - ready to install - with flaps, tips, leadout guide, tip weight box, controls and carbon weighed 9.9 ounces. The fuselage with all the molded shells ready to install weighed 2.7 ounces. Yes, I'm using up a good portion of my best wood on this project. I just realized that I am now 62 and really should start using that stuff!

I'm planning on using the new Hyperion batteries in this one. They are reputed to be able to be charged at a C5 rate. Not sure that I will go that far, but maybe i'll give C3 a try. Should be able to cut back just a bit on how many batteries I need to take to the field. The 4S2P 4000 mAh pack they have is priced around $100.00. That's far less than the Thunder Power 3850 V2 extremes that I'm using now. They are getting a great reputation with the RC Ducted Fan guys...

I'm not sure if I'm going to use the tail assembly pictured. It is light for its size at 2.5 ounces with horn and hinges, but it may be just a bit twisty. I'll have to carbon it and see how stiff it gets before I make a final decision.

Again, the projected all-up weight is 59 to 60 ounces with battery on board. That equates to a 53 to 54 ounce glow ship without 6 ounces of fuel on board...

This is a project that I've had in mind even before electric power became viable. I have been sketching twins for 50-plus years, but just never took the leap. I've spoken with Gordan Delaney - the recognized twin expert in the glow world - on several occasions and picked his brain on the technical aspects of designing one. It was, however, our moderator, Dean Pappas who finally convinced me that this is the time to try one. There are so many advantages to an electric twin. You can counter rotate the props and try them in both opposing directions. There were several full-size twins in which the props rotated outward on either side of the fuselage. The P-38 is a good example of this. I'll try them both ways and the beauty of this setup is that I can try that experiment right at the field. It is no big deal to reverse the rotation of the motors and just switch the props. Also, the spiral airflow problems ahould cancel out. I'll get 22 inches of "wetted" area of air blast due to the 11 inch props I intend to use. This disk area comes without the attendant problems of spiral airflow and prop ground clearance issues.

All in all this is a project that is keeping my interest peaked!

Later - Bob Hunt

P.S. Attached are a few more photos. I needed to get the wire harness for the motors and the retracts out to the nacelles. I rolled a balasa tube araound a dowel and than used that dowel wrapped with sandpaper to make a perfect radius in the nose of each of the cuffed area's ribs to accept the tube. It is now actually an additional spar! The "cuffed" area was employed to put the wire harness tunnel well ahead of the bellcrank and leadout so there would be no interference issues. Besides, it looks cool! - Bob

So, are you running that retract battery out to the tip or is it part of the motors power supply? By the way...I have been waiting a few years on you to come back to this project! I must assume it was an on going research saga during the lapse?

I see that you have a flat stab platform for a tapered stab. Are you making this removeable?
I am using an airfoiled stab/ el assy. also. Got the wings skinned you sent and will be getting some pics together of this build and down load to a disk...based on the request you sent

Hey one more thing, I see you are not using geodetic construction in the fuse...or atleast not yet.....?

Lookin' sweet Bob!

John Sunderland · « **Reply #31 on:** March 06, 2010, 01:45:17 AM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on March 04, 2010, 12:06:35 PM

Here is an early drawing of the side view of the twin. I've made a few subtle changes since this was drawn. I'll save those as a surprise for the Nats. Just imagine this design with an agressive military-like paint scheme...

Later - Bob

This reminds me of a cross between a Phoenix V and VI...Dave Browns stuff.....slick ship!

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #32 on:** March 06, 2010, 08:23:16 AM »

John Sunderland wrote:

"So, are you running that retract battery out to the tip or is it part of the motors power supply? By the way...I have been waiting a few years on you to come back to this project! I must assume it was an on going research saga during the lapse?

"I see that you have a flat stab platform for a tapered stab. Are you making this removeable?
I am using an airfoiled stab/ el assy. also. Got the wings skinned you sent and will be getting some pics together of this build and down load to a disk...based on the request you sent

"Hey one more thing, I see you are not using geodetic construction in the fuse...or at least not yet.....?

"Lookin' sweet Bob!"

Hi John:

Thanks for the kudos!

The retracts will indeed run off of the main motor battery. The system pulls 4 mAh when operating, so I'm pretty sure I have plenty to spare. At least my electric Guru, Dean Pappas seems confident of that...

Yeah, I put this one aside for a while. Life and other projects got in the way. I'm committed to getting this one done quickly so I have a shot of flying it at the Nats.

The stab is carved from a beautiful piece of 3/8-inch thick, quarter grain balsa. I leave the center square so that it is easier to align when installing it into the fuselage. The jury is still out on this tail assembly. I love the way it looks and the weight - or lack thereof - but it might be just a bit twisty. I'm going to invest part of tomorrow and carbon the stab. The carbon will add a bunch of torsional stiffness, I'll make my decision when the dope on the carbon dries thouroughly. I may go to a built up and sheeted stab... It will not be removable.

I've found that the molded shells with formers installed in them that perfectly match up to the formers in the fuselage crutch impart so much torsional strength when glued together that the Warren Truss formers are not required. I guess they couldn't hurt either... Once the carbon goes on the outside of the completed fuselage it gets so stiff that I don't think I could bend or twist it. At least that's been my experience with my other planes. Since I've started carboning (is that a word?) the entire airframes of my ships they have flown much better in the wind. My Caprice is the best wind ship I've ever owned and it is amazingly stiff.

Okay, on to new stuff. Last night I made the mount for the nose gear retract unit. I designed it so that it drops in from the top. That means I only need one hatch in the fuselage. Through that hatch I can mount the battery and install the nose gear. I can also access and mount the speed controls and the sequencer.

Here are a few photos of last night's work...

Rob Smith · « **Reply #33 on:** March 06, 2010, 09:15:47 AM »

Your model looks terrific Bob! As usual your building techniques are very clean and well done. I'll be watching this project with great interest.

Rob

TDM · « **Reply #34 on:** March 06, 2010, 09:16:35 AM »

Bob super Shop but i have to one up you.
This is the new age foam cutting. This is a machine that i have designed from the ground up. The precision is 99.96% accuracy and it is CNC controlled.
Enjoy.

Dorin

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #35 on:** March 06, 2010, 09:22:10 AM »

Looks great, Dorin!

Bob

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #36 on:** March 06, 2010, 09:01:43 PM »

Dorin,
I am going to ask, even beg, you to start a thread in either the Engineering or Design fora on the CNC cutter, especially the software.
Thanks,
Dean

P.S. I will also start a new thread on extending the subject of motor/prop and battery selection to include twins, sometime soon. This next week is going to be way too crazy.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #37 on:** March 07, 2010, 08:24:23 PM »

Okay, I "ate another bite of the elephant" today. I carboned the tail assembly (no photos of this yet) and installed the bottom molded shell on the fuselage. I have some photos of that...

This project will be coming to a temporary stopping point while I attend VSC. I'm leaving on Thursday. I'll pick up and continue this project report when I return from the desert.

Later - Bob Hunt

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #38 on:** March 07, 2010, 09:09:53 PM »

Bob,

can you please describe your retract system - what gear/servos etc - I would be interested in how to do this also as I want o build a Jet with retracts

Thanks

wwwarbird · « **Reply #39 on:** March 07, 2010, 09:10:54 PM »

Quote from: Bob Hunt on March 04, 2010, 12:06:35 PM

Here is an early drawing of the side view of the twin. I've made a few subtle changes since this was drawn. I'll save those as a surprise for the Nats. Just imagine this design with an agressive military-like paint scheme...

Later - Bob

Apparently I'm not familiar Bob, what Military scheme uses white with copper and orange???

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #40 on:** March 08, 2010, 06:31:23 AM »

Okay, I'll answer these in order:

Wynn Robins wanted to know about the retracts I'm using. They are a new item from E-Flite (Horizon Hobbies). They are electric retracts and all you have to do to use them in electric applications is to install them, run the wiring harness from them to the second channel of your timer/sequencer, time or sequence them to go up 10 seconds or so after full power up and come down 5 seconds or so before full motor power down! No servos, no linkage! Almost cheating! They will run off of the system battery and pull 4 mAh when operating.

Now, as to the proposed military color scheme... No one in their right mind would ever combine white, copper and orange. That is a sickening combination! Yuk! Now, those with extremely discriminating taste will see the elegance of white, copper (Or bronze, or Firemist metallic brown with red flake in it) and red with black accents!

The jury is still way out on both colors and scheme. The military option was considered if I were to use the name "Coin Return." No one seems to remember Coin fighters, so don't bet on the military option for this one. On the other hand, don't count it completely out either...

Attached are a couple of photos of a model sporting the most elegant paint scheme ever devised.

Of course, Billy Werwage doesn't see it that way...

Later - Bob

John Sunderland · « **Reply #41 on:** March 09, 2010, 05:20:23 AM »

I got my hands on this " Bronze Dawg" a few years ago. No matter what you think of the paint scheme....this is a beautiful model and you will never know just how beautiful... until you fly it.

When the Genesis was first electrified, Bob stopped through Columbus to visit with my Pop on his way to Muncie. Naturally the ole Man got some shots under the hood. When I got my ride I was completely sold on E power, but had to much on my plate to do anything about it.
This year I can play a little......ahhhh...its going to be nice to hang with stunt gang again!

wwwarbird · « **Reply #42 on:** March 10, 2010, 12:19:14 AM »

What are the dimensional specs Bob?

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #43 on:** March 10, 2010, 11:40:09 AM »

Are you looking for the specs of the twin or the Genesis mentioned above?

Bob

Gordan Delaney · « **Reply #44 on:** March 10, 2010, 12:04:15 PM »

Bob,
How many sq.inches. is this twin? Hope to see you at VSC. I`m here now.

Gordy

PS. I brought my little twin down.So you can fly it. A Pair of 15teens on it.

Bob Hunt · « **Reply #45 on:** March 10, 2010, 01:16:11 PM »

Hi Gordy:

The twin has a 650 square inch wing.

I'll see you tomorrow. I'm flying out at 6:45 in the morning and Warren is going to pick me up at the Phoenix airport. We'll probably head right for the field.

See you soon - Bob

PS: Watch your suspenders

wwwarbird · « **Reply #46 on:** March 10, 2010, 07:10:58 PM »

The twin Bob. What's the wingspan?

wwwarbird · « **Reply #47 on:** April 01, 2010, 09:19:43 PM »

So Bob, VSC's over, let's get back to work on this twin!

...Oh yeah, CONGRATS too!

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #48 on:** April 02, 2010, 07:19:42 AM »

Quote from: wwwarbird on April 01, 2010, 09:19:43 PM

So Bob, VSC's over, let's get back to work on this twin!

...Oh yeah, CONGRATS too!

I'll bet he ain't writun cuz he's buildin!

Plus i'll bet he got a dose of twin-envy @ VSC...

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #49 on:** April 05, 2010, 08:23:41 AM »

Spot on, Dennis!
He's working on that twin-envy problem. Shop time is much better than couch time, right compadres?

Dean P.

Author Topic: New Twin well under way (Read 11188 times)

Kim Doherty