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Author Topic: Saito 56 FS CL conversion  (Read 4672 times)

Offline Neil Roshier

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Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« on: May 18, 2014, 05:53:02 AM »
The Saito 56 in the ebay link below seems to have a conversion on it for CL use. How well do these conversions work?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/331198257536?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2014, 09:36:44 AM »
If it is a Steve moon conversion or the Bob Reeves system then it is excellent. If it is a genuine Saito control line engine, then it is no where near as good. Look up Saito 56 on the furum search function and you will see the Bob reeves system and probably Steve Moon's conversion.

Regards,

Andrew.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 11:21:50 AM by Andrew Tinsley »
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2014, 12:21:51 PM »
That's the UHP intake, if you get it, ask Doug Moon or his brother about getting the different size insert set. You will need them to tune it to the prop and airplane and didn't see where they came with the engine in the listing.

Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 03:16:19 PM »
If it is a Steve moon conversion or the Bob Reeves system then it is excellent. If it is a genuine Saito control line engine, then it is no where near as good. [snip]

Regards,

Andrew.

I respectfully disagree.  I'm on the my 6th year of flying Saito 4-strokes, mostly stock Saito CL versions, and they work very, very well.  Nothing against Steve's or Bob's custom conversions, I hear they work well too, but the Saito stock product is not deficient in any way.  If you have evidence to the contrary, please state when and how they failed to perform.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 06:24:53 PM »
The difference is with a fixed intake you have to find the exact prop that works with that choke area and airplane. Most fall into the trap of if it's flying too fast drop down in pitch, that doesn't work very well on a 4 stroke.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 06:32:43 PM »
thanks for this info, Bob. I'm finding this out now. my engine was in a happy RPM and changing props did not help lap speeds.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 05:35:43 AM »
Mike,
Just try running a C/L Saito in, following the Saito instructions. It simply doesn't work! You either need to block off part of the venture with the thumb or use an R/C carb for the break in.
If your stock Saito C/L engine is running well, then fine, that is what it is all about! Using the stock system, you need to know exactly what you are doing to get good results or just maybe you get lucky and it works first time!
The beauty of Bob's conversion is that it makes setting "up a plane prop rev equation" and solving it relative child's play. Just follow his instructions and you are there.
I have tried both setups (plus the R/C carb option). There is no doubt that Bob's conversion is by far the easiest to deal with. Nothing is wrong with the stock C/L Saito as such, provided it is set up correctly, but getting a stock system set up is nowhere as easy as the Bob Reeves conversion.  Simple as that.

Andrew.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2014, 09:03:14 AM »
Have a little bit of time to kill, what I can do is tell the story about my first hand experience with a certain yellow T-6 that Don Hutchinson built and gave to Joe Gilbert to play with.

When Joe first received the T-6 from Don it was set up for a Magnum-36, Joe flat wore out one 36 and was on the way to clapping out a second one when one of the club members suggested he try a Saito 40. He had to run the 36 really hard to make it work on the T-6 and the engine wasn't able to take it. Joe bought a CL Saito 40 and soon discovered to our surprise the Saito bolted right up to the Magnum mounting holes.

We spent about a month first trying to find a prop that would work and playing with the stock CL intake then trying to choke the intake down with a nylon screw drilled and taped into the side of the intake. The screw was installed on the flat part where it bolts to the engine case. We also discovered the hole in the spray bar was not big enough to allow enough fuel to get to the engine. Installing the choke screw and drilling out the hole in the spray bar really helped but we just weren't quite where we needed to be on run consistency.

One weekend Joe brought the T-6 out and was having all kinds of weird run issues. It wasn't the same from one flight to the next and after messing with it for several flights, I said Joe, pull the carb off that engine and give it to me. Went back to my shop and did my mod to the CL intake, new barrel with OS needle and 10-32 nylon screw right at the needle. This thread shows a photo of what I do to the CL intake.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,13536.0.html

Since then the airplane hasn't been beat in Profile Expert and Joe has flown the heck out that airplane, I would say it has had hundreds of flights and that little Saito isn't showing any signs of wear. I asked him the other day if he had checked the valve clearance lately and he told me he had checked it several months ago and it was fine.

This is why I don't feel the stock CL intake is the best way to run a Saito. It will work if you are not too picky about how it runs and are not depending on it to battle it out with electrics and pipes in any conditions at the Advanced and Expert level.

The next step for Joe's 40 is to ditch the CL intake all together and install a modified RC carb. This will eliminate the leaky OS needle and make setting the needle more precise. For lack of a better way to describe it, the Saito needle has finer clicks than the OS.

Edit: Please understand I am not soliciting business, I have done several mods for others but to be honest I would rather you do it yourself and actually wish someone else would take over doing Saito Carb Mods.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 05:55:56 PM by Bob Reeves »

Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 01:59:30 PM »
[snip]
If your stock Saito C/L engine is running well, then fine, that is what it is all about! Using the stock system, you need to know exactly what you are doing to get good results or just maybe you get lucky and it works first time!
[snip]
Andrew.

Andrew (and others reading this), (1) luck should have nothing to do with achieving success, and (2) technically speaking, YES, one SHOULD always know what they are doing - whether it applies to 4-strokes, 2-strokes, electrics, boats, helicopters, their 401(k) investment allocation, or that new propane grill on the back patio.  Such knowledge is gained by first studying the principles of operation of whatever system is being worked on, then applying that knowledge in practice (along with MEASUREMENTS or at least observations), recording and analyzing those measurements or observations, making corrections, discussing findings with others, etc. etc.  That's what this forum is for.

Let me share the basics of Control Line 4-strokes as I understand them, and why some people have been able to achieve good performance with those.
The 4-strokes have a completely different gas (fuel+air mixture) dynamics from 2-stroke engines, and therefore cannot be tuned the same way traditional stunt 2-strokes operate (2-4 break through port timing and mixture control, etc).  Stunt 4-strokes are set about 200-300 RPM on the rich side of peak (ground) RPM.  The key to steady stunt run and to preventing run-away is operating 4-strokes at the peak of a NARROW, "steep" torque curve.  The 4-stroke torque curve changes depending on the air intake (venturi) opening. The larger the intake, the more peak power can be obtained - but at the price of broader, shallower torque curve, which accommodates a wide range of RPM and will therefore allow your engine to "unwind" when prop is unloaded (like during consecutive loops downwind).  And conversely, the smaller the venturi, the smaller the peak power - but with a narrower "happy" RPM range.
Saito torque curves have been published, both by Saito / Horizon Hobby and by individuals (simply Google: Saito 56 torque curve). All Saito's in the .56-.72 range peak in the 8000-8500 RPM range...  which is where most people recommend running them.
Here's where people get into an argument (where there is nothing to argue about): how to get the Saito's to run at that RPM.  The Bob Reeves' approach says: pick a 6"-7"-pitch prop and keep closing the intake until you get to the desired RPMs, then set the mixture and fly.  My approach (similar to that originally described by Brad Walker in his 4-stroke article) is to leave the stock CL carb (venturi?) intact (I always leave the supplied insert in) and simply LOAD the engine with the appropriate SIZE prop until the desired RPM range is achieved, then fine tune airplane lap speed with prop pitch variations and fuel nitro content.  Just as an example, I had to use a 15"x6" prop (yes, 15 inch diameter) on my new Saito 72 to get it to run at 8500 RPM - but guess what, it pulls like a freight train, and hauls a 70 oz. Strega ARF on full 70' lines at 5.0" lap on 10% nitro fuel with power to spare!
If you re-read the above, you will understand that there is really nothing radically different in these two approaches.  No one advocates running the Saito's in the high-RPM (10,000+) low-pitch (4") regime; no one has succeeded with the use of the R/C carburetors.  Bob's approach is actually more convenient, because there is no need to have a wide range of props.  I was lucky enough to find stock props that do the job (for the benefit of others: Saito 56 = APC 13x6, Saito 62 = Master Airscrew 12x6 3-blade, Saito 72 = APC 15x6). I simply don't have either the equipment or the skills to machine custom parts.
The only point where we (Bob Reeves/Steve Moon/Brad Walker and I) differ is whether to feed the Saito's from a conventional suction tank or a uniflow....  But I will not be kicking this horse again, as it is already dead. 

The only thing I ask is please, PLEASE do not make the 4-strokes seem more complicated than they are.  After struggling for over 20 years with various 2-strokes, I can confidently say that the Saito range of control-line 4-strokes (especially the .56 and .62) is one of the best, most reliable combustion power trains for CL stunt available to the public.

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2014, 02:41:13 PM »
<snip> I can confidently say that the Saito range of control-line 4-strokes (especially the .56 and .62) is one of the best, most reliable combustion power trains for CL stunt available to the public.

However you get there, this is one statement we totally agree on.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Saito 56 FS CL conversion
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 04:51:13 PM »
Hello Mike,
I am sorry you took offence at some of my statements. Unfortunately people DO get lucky and hit on a set up that works well. It actually doesn't do them any good as they assume setting up a 4 stroke is child's play. I knew nothing about 4 strokes when I purchased my first C/L Saito 56. I DID however take the time to thoroughly read Bob's take on 4 strokes . They made total sense, so I went on from there and things worked very well.
  I cannot see for the life of me why anyone should buy a fistful of different props to find one that will load the engine to the correct revs. Bob's system is far easier, faster and cheaper to accomplish the desired loading. I would not consider anything else.

Regards,

Andrew.
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