News:


  • April 26, 2024, 07:09:46 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: tank height in Gieseke Nobler  (Read 3201 times)

Offline Chris Belcher

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 242
tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« on: August 22, 2016, 08:21:59 PM »
I flew my Gieseke Nobler this weekend and must have really squirreled out on bench trim cuz I did a full pattern on the second flight. The plane flies really really well but goes rich inverted. The engine (Brodak 40) is on 1/8" aluminum bearers and the tank is a 5 oz metal uniflow sitting snug on the rails. So i need to lower the engine (plane upright) or raise the tank. I do not see how removing material from the rails is even possible without damaging the fuse and adding more shims under the motor ruins the spinner fit. Do I have any other options? The motor run is awesome but it does go rich inverted and feels softer on out side rounds. I don't notice it on squares as much but I know a huge part of proper trim is even upright/inverted runs...at least in feel if not lap times.

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 08:31:32 PM »
ve in the past built a custom tank with the pickup in the location I want it, so in other words an assymetrical tank. Move the pickup upand the wedge up on the tankas well.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4986
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 05:58:58 AM »
Some blokes in F M have stated moving the pick up & uni pipe ( together )  1/8 ( say ) up is the same as moving the tank 1/8 up , where your stuck for tank movement . inc. Mr Urtnowski ( who dosnt like tanks deeper than one inch ).

Think ive seen one where theyre fixed to a 1/16 wire thats soldered into the tank floor . Measure the protrusion with them at tank centre . Soften with soldering iron and push in 2 mm for 2 mm pipe shift , ad infiniteum .

picture showing vauge resemblance to the general idea , insides shown uncovered .

Offline Gerald Arana

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1535
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2016, 10:20:13 AM »

Think ive seen one where theyre fixed to a 1/16 wire thats soldered into the tank floor . Measure the protrusion with them at tank centre . Soften with soldering iron and push in 2 mm for 2 mm pipe shift , ad infiniteum .

picture showing vague resemblance to the general idea , insides shown uncovered .
[/quote]


What?! I don't know about other people, but I can't grasp your statement or the drawing....... ???

AFAIC, the best way is to take the back off, (Set it on the range until the solder melts) and proceed from there.

Good luck, Jerry

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 10:42:04 AM »
Taking the back off is a good method
 BUT
I totally got what Matt suggested and think it a very crafty method
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9941
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2016, 03:32:04 PM »
Taking the back off is a good method
 BUT
I totally got what Matt suggested and think it a very crafty method


Yes, I also understood, once I looked at the diaphragm (sic). I usually have little or no comprehension of Mr. Spencer's posts, so I'm somewhat flummoxed over this happenstance.   H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 03:46:28 PM »
Some blokes in F M have stated moving the pick up & uni pipe ( together )  1/8 ( say ) up is the same as moving the tank 1/8 up , where your stuck for tank movement . inc. Mr Urtnowski ( who dosnt like tanks deeper than one inch ).

    Windy didn't understand this at all until several of us explained it in various venues.  In fact, you don't have to move the pickup, just the uniflow.

    There's no reason to limit oneself to 1" tanks. The reason some people still do is because they also replicate the wedge angle used on the Veco T-21 style tank, and that wedge is not steep enough to ensure good running in a deeper tank. Steepen it up just a bit and you can run any depth tank you want. We get 8+ ounce tanks in a 6" long space.

     Brett

Offline Chris Belcher

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 242
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 08:12:51 PM »
push in 2mm for 2mm pipe shift....what? measure protrusion....what? Sorry but that's the most confusing thing I've ever read. Should I open the tank and bend the uniflow tube and solder it with piece of wire to the roof of the tank. Remember, I'm RAISING the "tank height".

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4986
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 10:10:24 PM »
Note Bretts remaks ,

But SAY you pulled the back ( and checked its clean ) soldered a 1/4 in dog leg across / along the the pipes - the uni pipe , way aft - and they WERNT soldered to the SIDE ( etc ) for two or three in Fwd of that ,
                                                                                                           ------   ^^^^           ----         ^^^^^
With the wire protruding from the bottom to get the vice grips on , you could SHIFT the pick up hight in situ , no removing the tank even.

The Bottom Hole for the Adj. Wire ( 16 G / .06 in. ) if put there with a center punch ( supporting the tank face on a stick in the vice ) so theres a bit of a flange , might get a reasonable seal with a bit of tygon or whatever.
For ' the field tests ' where you could refine the pick up hight to spot on .
( would save using say 5 minute epoxy and redoing Ea Adjustment .
A bit of chewing gum as Back Up . !  ;D

Once ' On The Mark , before you bump something  . - mark/measure/ cut a  matching THING , or for techno whizzess , a graduated scale on a tin elbow adjacent the protruding wire'd get a built in graduation .

This ones drawn at two pm,in one minute, not 2 am ( here ) in thirty seconds .

View From REAR , say with the back off . The tube through the floors supposed to represent a ' plastic/ rubber ' tubing temporary seal . BUT if it were 3/32 od brass tube soldered in ,
a short length of small tygon over THAT & THE WIRE - Outside - should seal it indefinately . Figure itd want ' locking ' ( the adjustment ) tho', for some reason . ;D

A wedge Tank might throw this , tho' the Uni Pipe only should be a go there !

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4986
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2016, 10:21:19 PM »
Say for only the Uniflow Pipe in a Wedge Tank . Should get easy enough travel iin there . nearenough 3/16 in Ea Way.

Of Course the feed would be soldered In the Wedge there . The Uni Pipe WOULD NOT be soldered to the FEED Pipe back there at all , just to a 1/4 in dog leg on the adjusting wire .
The Paranoid or owners of Fox 35s  :## Would BIND & SOLDER the wire to the Uni Pipe . or make it 1/2 + lap on the wire adjustor rod .  ;)


Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4986
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2016, 10:38:13 PM »

Yes, I also understood, once I looked at the diaphragm (sic). I usually have little or no comprehension of Mr. Spencer's posts, so I'm somewhat flummoxed over this happenstance.   H^^ Steve 

Its pretty hard to do juxtoposition with pictures . With Words it comes from having an endless series of smart assed school teachers . Government Employees ! .

Had one or two that if you got them going , they might spend the entire lesson remonissing on something that Actually WAS Reality , though .

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2016, 10:50:08 PM »
push in 2mm for 2mm pipe shift....what? measure protrusion....what? Sorry but that's the most confusing thing I've ever read. Should I open the tank and bend the uniflow tube and solder it with piece of wire to the roof of the tank. Remember, I'm RAISING the "tank height".

   Take the rear cover off the tank. Reach in and desolder the end of the uniflow vent tube from the side of the tank or whatever it is soldered to. Move it up (towards the bearers) about one tube width or 1/8" and solder it in place. It will probably end up right above the fuel pickup tube, so you can solder it to that.  Then reheat the solder where the uniflow vent tube comes out of the tank to relieve the stress from moving the tube.

      Brett

Offline Chris Belcher

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 242
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2016, 12:43:20 PM »
Thanks Brett

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2016, 02:10:30 PM »
Thanks Brett

  You are welcome. I *think* I get what Matt Spencer is attempting to do, and it's actually a kind of neat idea, but given that you only have to determine the correct position once ,and have it stay that way forever, soldering and desoldering is acceptable. Once you know where it needs to be, then you can make all the subsequent tanks with the same offset.

   BTW, if it is very far off, you can also make the tank with the wedge and pickup off-center. But if it's just a little bit, like 1/8", then it's OK to leave the rest of it centered.

     Brett

Online EddyR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2561
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2016, 02:26:49 PM »
I would not be surprised if the uniflow was in the wrong place when the tank was built.  Many commercial tanks are
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Chris Belcher

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 242
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2016, 03:38:04 PM »
I think I just got a grip on what Matt is talking about and it is interesting. I think he means you have an "adjustment wire" sticking out of the tank and you "loosen" the solder to raise or lower the tubes inside and resolder once in position, using a scale to mark where you are??? Is that it?

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9941
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2016, 06:12:25 PM »
I think I just got a grip on what Matt is talking about and it is interesting. I think he means you have an "adjustment wire" sticking out of the tank and you "loosen" the solder to raise or lower the tubes inside and resolder once in position, using a scale to mark where you are??? Is that it?

Well, we probably think that is what Mr. Spencer possibly meant.   ;)

The wire is more or less a gauge, but also a stabilizer strut (i.e., "head steady") for the Uniflow tube. I would move the wire the correct amount and then resolder the place where the uniflow tube exited the tank shell...but I would really prefer to solder the uniflow tube's end to the wall of the tank.

IDEALLY, I'd suggest making an asymetrical tank with the wedge point raised up about 1/4"...and the wedge angle made more acute. Our local expert IC guy, Pete Peterson will often make 2 to 4 tanks for each new plane to get the tank wedge at a height that will allow a bit of shimming to get inside/outside rpm the same, AND the volume correct...but also allowing removal of a bit of excess fuel to get the run time correct. One of the glorious features of IC power. The electron guys miss out on this joy!   LL~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4986
Re: tank height in Gieseke Nobler
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2016, 07:06:01 PM »
Was / Is more . . . thoughts ( derived from ) a set up on say a side mounted engine                   , with a built in tank .

Trying a variety of engines in the second Phantom , where the tanks not accessable . The Intake on the 21 series Super Tigres with the offset in the case are not on the centerline , like the OS 35 it was built for .

It was the 35C Flat Top , with intake on centerline that split the tank and shook the joints loose with its vibration , and was thirstyest . So it got a new nose and the FSR 25.

So . . . if you DID have a permanently installed tank with a sidewinder engine , and were worried about even speed upright/ inverted , having some set up so you could haul
the pipes around might ease your worried mind ! . :) :P

From Memory I think , the 21 40 was worst uneven & 21 35 ran dead even . 10 min on the 25 , 7 min on the 21 35 , 5 min on the C 35 Flat Top , on the same fuel .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Say a 10 mm hole with a 1/2 Sq Patch over it , back at the rear ; If you left the last inch of the pipes unsoldered , would let you get in easy to tweak them , on an accessable tank . A spur of the moment thought .

Bit like the guys soldering a tin lid with the threaded cap receptical on for clunk access in a tin tank . Also let you clean the thing out and VISUALLY check it .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We could have a thread for photos of the insides of rusted / gunked up TANKS . Mines Worse than Yours . With a Quaterly Winner .  ;D LL~


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here