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Author Topic: Options light muffler LA 25  (Read 12447 times)

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2016, 04:43:07 PM »
Thanks Brett!

It looked like it was reading a band of frequencies during the video, and the low end of that band was 11,000 rpm. I'll see if it has a sensitivity adjustment.

Bill

  It will likely pick up a wide variety of harmonics of the real running frequency. I have no idea how the program actually works, but if *I* was doing it I would take the input sound wave, calculate the power spectral density of the signal, knock off anything below 2000 rpm, and find frequency of the resulting highest peak. In this case I would guess a combination of the direct noise of the prop (which will have a large component a 22,000 for an 11,000 running RPM) and the first harmonic of the engine noise (2x 11,1000 = 22000) adding together to create more energy at 22000 than at the principle exhaust frequency of 11,000.

   Also, if it was me, I would include an anti-aliasing filter, sample at far higher than necessary, then have the user set a "range" variable that guesses the range of the RPM and chops off everything above there with a bandpass filter.

    Brett
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 07:15:59 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2016, 06:16:21 PM »
That's right on the money!

My range (and it warned me at turn on) was far too broad. Low end was set at 1500, and high end at 35,000. Some of my engines are R/C engines and can idle even lower!

Changed the range for 10000 to 15000 rpm, and ran the video again. RPM just prior to release was 10800, and unloaded was 11,300+. Still got a few harmonics, but the average was pretty steady.

If you have been to our field (NW Fireballs in Portland OR), you may remember we are very close to the I-5 Freeway, and I did have problems checking in-flight rpm there. Bench readings were good, but much closer to the engine.

Appreciate the help Brett!

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2016, 06:21:19 PM »
What prop?  If that's with a 9-4 then something weird is going on.

You made the venturi -- what is the diameter of the hole in the venturi, and what are you using for a spraybar?  I'm wondering if maybe you've made something with an opening that's just too small.  Note that more than just the inner diameter is important -- the effective area is what's left of the inner diameter after you go shove that spraybar in there.

If the engine is used there's also a chance that it's sick for some reason.  Does it have plenty of compression?  Does it have a good crankcase seal?  Does it show signs that it's ever been apart?  Look at the head screws -- if they've been replaced by hex head screws or if the JIS heads are munged up then someone's been at it?
10-4 my venturi ended up being .262, spraybar is a FP 20-40 same one in my .46, Omega 10% with a cup of added castor, it's used,  don't look like it's been messed with but I think you guys hit the nail on the head. I'd say the compression is lacking some. Definitely doesn't have the compression my .46 has.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2016, 06:26:55 PM »
   No, that's not correct. It might be double-counting, which would mean 11,000. The engine sounds wrong, and very tired, although I wouldn't make any rash judgements on recorded sound.

   Brett
How do you tell the difference between the latest version and the old?
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2016, 01:02:24 PM »
Video sound's not accurate. You're run is fine. Engine keeps power in maneuvers, breaks, doesn't sag. Go fly.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2016, 01:07:48 PM »
You're near an optimum zone for that model. Needs to fly a bit fast.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2016, 01:16:11 PM »
A club member discussed LA 25s with OS. OS stated porting was the same. No old no new model. Different assembly line engines will show variations in performance. Especially during wear in. Tolerances differ. Bushed engines can have tighter and looser crankshaft fit. Same with P/L. A combat flyer pointed that out to me as I puzzled over the performance of a breaking in Tower 40. Tight crank took a while to loosen. Engine was a bit down on power first 20 flights. Metals worked their way into a better fit.


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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2016, 03:49:22 PM »
A club member discussed LA 25s with OS. OS stated porting was the same. No old no new model. Different assembly line engines will show variations in performance.

    Except for the consistent 1500-2000+ rpm difference starting about 6 years ago, that is.

    This is not a tolerance stackup issue.

    Brett

     

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2016, 03:57:48 PM »
    Except for the consistent 1500-2000+ rpm difference starting about 6 years ago, that is.

    This is not a tolerance stackup issue.

    Brett

     


That being said, I have setup many dozen of the 25s, even the  earliest ones will  4 cycle that prop at over 11,000 RPMs
so something is amiss  there.
However he could still use it with a 4.5 to 5.0 pitch prop if need be. I would check the  liner really well and look at the internals, recheck the NVA diameter and the venturie diameter, not to mention I have seen 2 of these that had 4 shims under the  head, should be 1 or 2 at the most.
They also like  10 percent nitro..even 15 in the summer's  hot weather

Randy

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2016, 03:58:19 PM »
Talk to OS.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2016, 04:02:11 PM »
4 cycle an LA 25 that's interesting. The engine in the video pulls the plane at an appropriate speed. There's a slight break at the top of the vertical. Similar speed upright and inverted. No sag. Even run. Go fly.


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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2016, 04:09:43 PM »
4 cycle an LA 25 that's interesting. The engine in the video pulls the plane at an appropriate speed. There's a slight break at the top of the vertical. Similar speed upright and inverted. No sag. Even run. Go fly.


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A standard procedure I do when testing engines, it is a part of the info plotted, especially the RPM difference between the fastest 4 it will run and the peaked 2 cycle. My statement had  ZERO  to do with how  to run it on the Airplane.
However it can , and has been , ran in a 4/2 , but a 2 cycle will put out more thrust, and is easier  to setup

Randy

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2016, 04:15:00 PM »
Liner. You're flying at the right speed for that plane. You're doing round maneuvers that look round your square maneuvers are close to what you get with a sport/stunt plane of that era. You're bottoms are coming down. Plane stays out on the lines. No obvious anomalies. Actually you look pretty confident. Learn the pattern. Practice.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2016, 04:21:47 PM »
Oh. Randy. You're making an academic point.


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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2016, 06:59:18 PM »
Video sound's not accurate. You're run is fine. Engine keeps power in maneuvers, breaks, doesn't sag. Go fly.


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Just curious but what is a "break"? I've been lost every time I see that.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2016, 07:28:28 PM »
Just curious but what is a "break"? I've been lost every time I see that.

When it goes from four-stroke to two, or back.  It sounds like the motor suddenly speeding up or slowing down.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2016, 07:42:12 PM »
Near the top of the verticals engine sounds a tad leaner. There doesn't appear to be a sag in power. Engine never hits an over lean condition.Which means engine generates a bit more power where it is useful because the plane slows down as it climbs.  After plane goes over the top engine goes back to original note quickly. Needle is set right. Level laps upright and inverted appear steady at baseline power setting. Looks and sounds that way to me. There is of course a doppler effect as plane moves toward and away from sound recording.

Engine is not 4 stroking. It is going from a slightly richer to a slightly leaner 2-stroke. A functional and consistent way to use engines like an LA25.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 01:03:18 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2016, 08:05:00 PM »
Liner's engine run is well matched to his model.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2016, 05:01:27 PM »
That being said, I have setup many dozen of the 25s, even the  earliest ones will  4 cycle that prop at over 11,000 RPMs
so something is amiss  there.
However he could still use it with a 4.5 to 5.0 pitch prop if need be. I would check the  liner really well and look at the internals, recheck the NVA diameter and the venturie diameter, not to mention I have seen 2 of these that had 4 shims under the  head, should be 1 or 2 at the most.
They also like  10 percent nitro..even 15 in the summer's  hot weather

     It has no problem with Cox Racing fuel, even at sea level, but no one makes a prop with low enough pitch for that. With 10% and a 9-4 APC at normal sea-level air, the static 4-2 break RPM on mine is around 13,300-13.400. With the old version, the same point is about 11,000 to 11100.

      Since everyone started telling me I was a moron over the topic, I did some static testing out in the local park and in the parking lot (possible because I *was* using the stock muffler)  to convince myself it was real. Granted, hours of careful ground and extensive flight testing in many different conditions hardly matches Dennis having heard something somewhere, but still, it's enough for a casual modeler like myself.

       I agree, overall, the airplane seems to be flying OK despite the engine not sounding right or putting out the expected power. More pitch would probably make it happier, because it has the potato in the exhaust sort of sound to it now. It certainly won't take a real hot 25 to fly a Tomahawk - I would be tempted to use the old baffle-piston 25. The last airplane I flew with the old 25S was about 400 square inches and a much fatter airfoil. If it was running like the stocker, it would certainly be far too much.

    I suspect that this is either the earlier version, or someone has "improved" this particular engine, and I might even have a guess who did it based on the sound alone.

     Brett

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2016, 05:33:13 PM »
I got this thing on ebay cause I wanted a more reliable motor on this airplane. I saw you guys rave about the LA25. So I figured hey a 25 would probably be great size for this thing. But now I find out is more like 40 or however you want to compare it.  So now I'm wondering what to do with the NIB one I have acquired. I guess something Skyray size? I will rip the head off this other LA after I get the aluminum backplate to satisfy the curiosity with this engine. Anyway do any of the LA25's that you guys have that are worn with lower compression run incorrect like this one? Also does anyone have a video of a proper sounding 25 with the stock muffler I'm curious as to what it should sound like?
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2016, 05:34:39 PM »
     It has no problem with Cox Racing fuel, even at sea level, but no one makes a prop with low enough pitch for that. With 10% and a 9-4 APC at normal sea-level air, the static 4-2 break RPM on mine is around 13,300-13.400. With the old version, the same point is about 11,000 to 11100.

      Since everyone started telling me I was a moron over the topic, I did some static testing out in the local park and in the parking lot (possible because I *was* using the stock muffler)  to convince myself it was real. Granted, hours of careful ground and extensive flight testing in many different conditions hardly matches Dennis having heard something somewhere, but still, it's enough for a casual modeler like myself.

       I agree, overall, the airplane seems to be flying OK despite the engine not sounding right or putting out the expected power. More pitch would probably make it happier, because it has the potato in the exhaust sort of sound to it now. It certainly won't take a real hot 25 to fly a Tomahawk - I would be tempted to use the old baffle-piston 25. The last airplane I flew with the old 25S was about 400 square inches and a much fatter airfoil. If it was running like the stocker, it would certainly be far too much.

    I suspect that this is either the earlier version, or someone has "improved" this particular engine, and I might even have a guess who did it based on the sound alone.

     Brett
Just curious but what engine would you use on a Tomahawk?
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2016, 06:04:12 PM »
Just curious but what engine would you use on a Tomahawk?

You can use the  25LA  on a Tomahawk, it is easy  to lower power, less nitro and 9.5 to 10 in diameter prop
You can also use an Enya 25
Fox 35
Brodak 25
Thunder Tiger 25
Magnum 25
Brat 28
Webra 32
etc...

Randy

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2016, 06:11:38 PM »
You can use the  25LA  on a Tomahawk, it is easy  to lower power, less nitro and 9.5 to 10 in diameter prop
You can also use an Enya 25
Fox 35
Brodak 25
Thunder Tiger 25
Magnum 25
Brat 28
Webra 32
etc...

Randy
I'm running a 10-4 on this questionable LA 25
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2016, 10:09:26 PM »
Just curious but what engine would you use on a Tomahawk?

  I would use something like a McCoy 19, OS 20or 25S (old baffle piston version), a 15FP, or something similar.

    The 25LA is a stellar stunt engine but in general (running correctly) it needs to be on a larger airplane, like a Skyray 35, Flite Streak, Banshee, and airplanes like that, up to about a Nobler. And not the "Junior" versions, the regular full-size airplanes.

    Part of your frustration is that the manufacturers are still listing airplane like the Tomahawk for "19-35 engines", which is what it was designed for - 60 years ago!   The difference between a "19" in 1956 and a "20" in 2016 is massive, and there is absolutely no distinction made between a McCoy or OS 19 Pet and a Picco 21, or to a lesser extent, a 20FP. Even a cheapie RC sport engine like a 25FP or the "new" 25LA  is plenty of power to replace a Fox or McCoy35 with a massive improvement in performance in almost all the old "35-sized" airplanes from the 50's. So, what it amounts to is that you can't really specify the engine by the displacement for a particular airplane without also specifying which specific engine you have.

   There has been a very large, massive, voluminous, whatever you want to call it, discussion over the merits of these small engines, primarily as replacement for the old baffle-piston 35s, the dismal 40FP-S, and the many modified schneurle 40's that are even worse. The intent was to find an engine that would work properly on profile airplanes, as the Fox 35 doesn't, and *not require modifications*.   This has been since there has been an internet in the current form starting in about 1993-94 when I did a series of experiments using all the small engines available at the time. As it turned out, they all worked pretty well and they all ran better than a Fox, as long as you ran them like other modern stunt engines (i.e. 4" of pitch) and not like "How I won the Podunk Internats and Chili Cookoff in 1954" type advice that tried to make them run with a 4-2 break at low revs.

     The standout from that experiment, however, was the 20FP. You can take it straight out of the box, no modifications at all, bolt on an APC 9-4, and bolt it to a Flite Streak and have nearly a perfect run right off the bat without having to know almost anything about it, other than how to set the needle (peak out, then back off 5-6 clicks). It has a nearly perfect power change in the maneuvers and has the magic "slow motion" predictable feel even when it's going 4.5 second laps. It was a better runner than the 25FP, although it had less power, and a better runner than the "old" 25LA, which was a little down on power WRT the 20, and didn't run as nicely, although it would fly the same sort of airplanes mostly OK. It sounds and tachs very much like yours. That makes it workable (because the airplane is really small), but don't expect it to fly larger airplane or relate very well to the existing "new" 25LA.

    Of course they discontinued the 20FP about 15 years ago, so I have been periodically suggesting that other people (who know what they are doing and are objective) take up the torch and repeat the same experiments with engines you could still get. I didn't do much of anything until Clint Ormosen invented the Stunt 25 event. I then got a couple of 25LAs, the "new" version, just to see what it would do. It, too, works perfectly straight out of the box with *no* modifications at all, and runs even better than the 20FP with even more power. Even the Skyray and Flite Streak are marginally too small for it, but close enough to make it OK with careful needling. At this point I have done a lot of testing on the ground and in the air

    All you need to know about this topic, and about 10x more, can be found by searching for "brett 25la" and "brett 20FP" both here and on SSW (where a lot of this was discussed long after the fact, when the old RCO forum went away). Somewhere there is a 30-something page article by "Dirty" Dan Rutherford explaining exactly how to set up the 20 and most of it applies to the 25LA as well. Said setup being an APC 9-4 and the engine *exactly as it comes out of the box with no changes to any part in any way*.


    Brett
     

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2016, 10:55:04 PM »
What a joke talking about the quality of engine sound on an Internet video. Potato in the exhaust. Liner you sound like an intelligent guy. Your set up works. You do the maneuvers. Randy says you can use an LA25 on a Tomahawk. Speed looks about right for a plane of that era. Go fly.


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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2016, 10:59:49 PM »
I'm running a 10-4 on this questionable LA 25


A 10 x  4 will still work fine, try a wood Pro Z  or wide blade BYO  with 5% nitro fuel
The engine will not be hard to tune to the plane, if absolutly needed you can add a head shim or use 62 ft lines
I had a couple of Tomahawks  with an Enya 35  on one and a ST 35 ball bearing on the other,  The 25 is NOT going to overpower the plane if you pay a little attention to proper setup

Randy

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2016, 11:33:24 PM »
Using my Iphone stop watch I timed 4.88 per lap. You might try a tad slower or go to longer lines as Randy advised. Tomahawks are smaller than Original Flite Streaks. Somewhat. I bet Arf Streaks are very similar. You can even try running the engine a hair slower. In any case your speed is in the ball park for a plane of this vintage. They work best when flown bit fast.

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2016, 05:42:55 AM »
Liner you sound like an intelligent guy. Your set up works. You do the maneuvers. Randy says you can use an LA25 on a Tomahawk. Speed looks about right for a plane of that era. Go fly.


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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #78 on: May 25, 2016, 06:34:55 AM »
What a joke talking about the quality of engine sound on an Internet video.

You know precisely nothing about this, but I am sure that will not stop you from adding your sage comments.

     Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #79 on: May 25, 2016, 07:29:24 AM »
Yeah right. 10 years fixated on the same  dumb one size fits all setup. Everyday at our field we get all kinds of stuff running well that gives the lie to your grandiosity. Internet sound is @#$% poor lops off highs and lows plus frequent drop outs. Find a place for the potato.


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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2016, 07:42:01 AM »
Ok ok lets play nice fellas!  n1
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2016, 07:43:10 AM »
Also stop messing with people's heads who are asking in good faith for advice. They don't need commentary from a joker who got something to run decently once. Then insists that way is the only way. Come off it. Realize there are other folks who get engines to work well taking approaches different than your own. A wee bit of objectivity would help. You are well aware of Foxes for instance that folks in my club have set up that win in National contests. For instance. And on and on.


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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2016, 08:10:37 AM »
Also stop messing with people's heads who are asking in good faith for advice. They don't need commentary from a joker who got something to run decently once. Then insists that way is the only way. Come off it. Validate your ego in a different playground. Or for once. Realize there are other folks who get engines to work well taking approaches different than your own. A wee bit of objectivity would help. You are well aware of Foxes for instance that folks in my club have set up that win in National contests. For instance. And on and on.


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Dennis, I know Brett doesnt need me to "defend him" and I am not, ,but I hope you are having a bad day, yoru posts are full of venom and thats just not appropriate
Brett is sharing his experience ( as he does willingly over and over again) He DOES know what he speaks of, I have seen many people who have done just what he says and it works first time every time.
He is sharing fact, just because you can get an engine to run doesnt make it a good quality run, When you win the nats, or make top 5 consistantly, then start strutting your stuff but until then how about you share your opinion,, and let it be without trying to belittle others who are here to help
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Options light muffler LA 25
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2016, 02:08:08 PM »
Brett is trying to give me a bad day. He's been trying to do that for some time. So I'm giving it back.

I am tired of him telling me and my friends we don't know what we're talking about. Brett has been saying this for years. We fly these engines all the time. FPs, Fox 35s, LAs. Our club members do well with them at contests. We fly stock Fox 35s, nothing jammed in the port. Dan Banjock's Galloping Comedian, that appeared on the cover of Stuntnews, is powered by a Fox 35 configured with stock porting. He has placed as high as 3rd or 2nd at the NATs, not in Old Time, he placed that high in Classic. Mark, I saw you at the NATs, you know the quality of those Classic planes. Flapped. Way better aerodynamics than the flapless Old Time Bird. Big buck power of different kinds. The Galloping Comedian does just fine with a stock port Fox 35. Dan runs FP40s in profile. I run those engines, Mike Palko runs those engines, on and on, most of our club members run those engines. They work well when tuned appropriately. As far as LA25s, no biggy to get one to perform well with a chip muffler. In fact Randy Smith sells chip mufflers for them.

Liner is flying a typical late 50s UC design. Wing area nearly identical to a Sterling Warbird. He's flying at a speed appropriate to those planes. The engine provides plenty of power to do the maneuvers. It has a light break where appropriate. If you fly that plane slower it will start coming in on the lines be weird up top. He has matched his power to the model. Go fly. Brett observes inadequate power. Not by looking at the flight characteristics of the plane on the video. No. He determines the engine is down on power because of the sound. Please. Please again. Internet sound quality is low quality. What you hear on the internet is not what you will hear live. Telling Liner his engine is down on power because of how it sounds on the internet is confusing and non productive. Liner has figured out, on his own, how to get an engine to perform well on a profile. Not easy.

Brett's attitude is his way is the only way. I have reasoned with him for years. Speaking from my experience and the experience of the people I fly with all the time. I have talked honestly. Friends have talked honestly. Apparently reasoning does not reach him. So I decided to communicate with him in another way.


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