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Author Topic: Low RPM of modified Jett60  (Read 13185 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2016, 11:03:06 AM »
Like Brett wrote, I feel that we almost exhausted feasible changes and tests with no positive conclusion.

As I know now from Randy the torque for the head screws, I will run the engine tomorrow on the bench using the 0.004" shim.

If there is no improvement in the ground RPM, I will send this Jett to someone who is willing to troubleshoot it.

By the way: when the liner and piston were replaced in 2015, I asked Dub Jett to test run it and he refused. He said that he does this only for his new engines.

M





 

Offline frank williams

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2016, 06:17:26 PM »
Matt
How is the fit of the sleeve into the case.  Raise the sleeve out of the case about a quarter of an inch and rock it back and forth.  If it rocks at all, the sleeve to case fit is suspect.  The engine won't draw well if this looseness is present.  There will be crankcase leakage from transfer ports to exhaust.  The sleeve should be almost all the way out of the case before you can rock it at all.  Also check the blowdown timing.  Is there a measurable distance from when the exhaust opens and the intakes open.
Frank 

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2016, 07:58:39 PM »
Matt I have the same problem with a brodak 40, it has had the same fuel and prop as the other 40s I have. The only thing that I did different was to put a silicone exhaust deverter on this one. The cylinder looks the Sam as yours. I had this problem in rc, along with others. I tryed this thinking I would not be running the high rpm of rc. I only use Mac exhaust deverted. Mac said the silicone kills rpm and add heat. I looked at your pics, and I also see that you header muffler looks short, don't know if you cut it off or it came that way. Randy would know how long it should be. I look at my score and put the pa 40 m with header muffler that I got from randy and it would not fit, it is to long.

I wish I could get my pics up, but I cleaned clynder and piston of varnish. I going run this again to see if it runs hot again or its OK. I can let you know what happens but it would a be awhile. Maybe yours can be cleaned and bench run with open face and check temp and then add muffler and check again. Muffler restriction can add a lot of heat. If Jett will not test run, you will have to keep trying. If you find out later what was wrong let us known.

Steve

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2016, 11:30:41 PM »
If it jamming at TDC then perhaps the rod is in backwards?

(Grasping at straws here I know but I have had this happen before as it pushes the rod further back on the crankpin and that can rub internally against backplate or strike the internal arch of the casting.)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 03:01:59 AM by Chris Wilson »
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2016, 07:02:50 AM »
Frank,
The sleeve fits the cylinder bore very well. I would describe this fit as tighter sliding fit by ANSI definition.
The sleeve starts rocking a bit when only 1/4" of it is still inside the cylinder.

I would say the low RPM problem is not related to the sleeve-cylinder fit in this Jett.

Steve,
This Jett header has the original length - it has never been cut. I run this engine without the silicone exhaust deflector and did not notice nor measure any changes in RPM. By the way: I am using the largest silicone deflector that fits the header and, after checking the cross sectional areas of the entire exhaust duct, I know that there is no restriction imposed on the exhaust stream after the exhaust gases leave the exhaust port except of friction.

Chris,
The fit of the cold piston and the top of the cold sleeve is still a bit tight but there is no jamming of anything anywhere.
Jetts have a groove machined in the round part of the crankcase and this groove does not allow the piston rod to slide back from the pin of the shaft counterweight.

There is no sign of any damage to the rod, piston or/and crankcase inside the engine.

Like I wrote before, two front mounting lugs have been damaged in the Great White crash but I am using the clamp style mount and all four mounting screws are engaged properly.

I will run this engine with all the props tested before and a very thin shim (0.004") today in the afternoon and will report the results on this forum.

Regards,
M

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2016, 10:34:00 AM »


Like I wrote before, two front mounting lugs have been damaged in the Great White crash but I am using the clamp style mount and all four mounting screws are engaged properly.








I am of the opinion that the CC is bent since you had a crash unless it was running this way before the crash, then I don't know.  HB~>

I had a VECO 61 on an RC ship several years ago that crashed due to not enough rubber bands on the wing and it (the wing) departed when my student pilot was doing loops with it. Yes, I was quite embarrassed that I hadn't prepared the ship properly........
Anyway, my favorite engine got a bent CC (ever so slightly) and it had to replace.  Haven't flown the engine since, but have thought about converting it to CL.  y1

Jerry

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2016, 01:15:37 PM »
If it jamming at TDC then perhaps the rod is in backwards?


   Even after running the same engine almost exclusively for 9 years, I recently got mine stuck at TDC when I took the plug out and absent-mindedly turned it over and left it at the top of the travel. So I would expect that to happen on more-or-less any of them, in fact, it's not easy to get the engine to be at TDC for the necessary measurements because it wants to stick and will push the liner out of the case if you aren't careful.

    Brett

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2016, 04:34:09 PM »
Gerald,
Bending the crankcase that is aluminum cast will, in my opinion, cause the crankcase crack somewhere.
I do not see the indication of this as there is no weird leak anywhere.
I would see this leak as I was watching the engine from all angles while running it recently.

Everybody,
I got the ground RPM of 8,300 - 8,700 on 12x7 APC and my RToucan weights now 66 oz.
Is this ok? I mean these RPM on this prop for the plane weighting 66 oz. on 66' long lines?

Perhaps for THIS engine as it is now, on THIS prop and THESE lines I need 59 oz., 580 in^2 plane?

Maybe the plane weighting 66 oz. is simply too heavy for the engine as is?

What I am trying to avoid is three months of trying, erring, writing e-mails and swearing instead of one radical move, namely, using the lighter plane.

Well...




Online Brett Buck

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2016, 04:58:25 PM »
Maybe the plane weighting 66 oz. is simply too heavy for the engine as is?


  As is, maybe, but that is *nothing* for a properly running engine. And a 12-7 is a terrible stunt prop, particularly for a heavy airplane. You need to get conventional quality props and reserve the Zingers for stirring paint, scraping burnt-on crud out of your oven, driving through vampire hearts, etc.

   Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2016, 05:38:14 PM »
Maybe the plane weighting 66 oz. is simply too heavy for the engine as is?

What I am trying to avoid is three months of trying, erring, writing e-mails and swearing instead of one radical move, namely, using the lighter plane.

When Paul Walker strongly suggested that I put a 46LA on a 64 ounce airplane I privately thought he was crazy, and publicly said "yessir!"  (Because he's Paul).  I figured I'd try it and then put in something else if it didn't work.

It works splendidly.

No way is a Jett 60 too small for that sized plane.  I think the one radical move needs to be to send the engine to someone who can fix it, or declare it dead and keep it for parts.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2016, 07:01:00 PM »
Remember this is a 25 year old cast case George-Jett and will not run the same or have comparable power to a PA, RO-Jett BSE w/BB timing or run as fast as a 40 VF. Max RPM is not a good test for a stunt engine anyway and 12x7 is a terrible stunt prop as has been stated.

George engines are know for lower RPM and 4 or 4-2-4 cycle type runs.I wouldn't run it in a 2 cycle if it were my engine.  If it runs in the mid to high nines in a 4 cycle w/ a 12x4 or 12x5 prop it may be as good as it's going to get. I might even try a smaller prop (11.5x4 APC) just to see if it makes a difference.

It also may just not be a good plane/engine combo. Try the EVO, it should drop right in. Lap times too slow?, try shorter lines. 66" is longer than many use, big plane notwithstanding. I also did not see a glow plug to first baffle measurement when it was being run on a pipe. That can make a big difference on RPM See Randy's chart for details.8)
Pete Cunha
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2016, 07:16:11 PM »
Remember this is a 25 year old cast case George-Jett and will not run the same or have comparable power to a PA, RO-Jett BSE w/BB timing or run as fast as a 40 VF. Max RPM is not a good test for a stunt engine anyway and 12x7 is a terrible stunt prop as has been stated.

George engines are know for lower RPM and 4 or 4-2-4 cycle type runs.I wouldn't run it in a 2 cycle if it were my engine. 

   I think the idea is that most of the GMA stuff is removed. That is why Randy and I were attempting to check the head clearance, to see if it was still a GMA system, or the replacement parts (supposedly current RO-Jett parts). It appears that at least the head clearance is in the modern range like a conventional RO-Jett, compared to the GMA version (.030 vs anywhere up to .080-090 in the GMA). And the venturi also seems like a stock RO-Jett item as well - the ones with the GMA were usually massive, like .228 (#1) and even larger.

  I do know that having to run a 12-7 prop is like adding 2 pounds to the airplane in terms of performance.

   And, I might add, most of the performance problem with the original GMA-Jett is a function of the outlandish low compression. In many cases, we tightened up the compression to normal values (like this engine is, apparently), and the engine really came alive, to the point that the venturi (gigantic to go with the very low compression) was then FAR too big and it was difficult to get it to do anything but run dead lean at 13000 rpm.

   I wouldn't discourage anyone from continuing, but I have to pretty much punt at this point. Maybe if someone with experience had it in their hand it the problem would become obvious (and for goodness sake, DO NOT SEND IT TO ME), but with multiple rebuilds, a crash to the point the lungs broke off (which is one mighty whack indeed) and very bad baseline performance, it could be any one or more of a dozen issues and I think internet troubleshooting is unlikely to be a effective method to resolve it.

    Brett

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2016, 12:57:21 PM »
Everybody,
I run the engine today with the 0.004" and then 0.001" shims without any substantial change in performance.

While testing the 12x4 MAS prop as the third one ( immediately after 13x5 Zinger and 12.25x3.75 APC were tested with both shims), the vibration of the engine intensified to the point that the entire test stand started shaking. I stopped the engine immediately and checked if the prop was balanced.

It was.

It is very likely that something inside the engine, most likely one or both bearings, finally gave up and the dynamic imbalance generated such strong vibration.
Interestingly enough, I could not feel any extra resistance while turning the prop by hand. There was also no extra sound, like clicking, brushing or crunching, coming from the engine. Prop moved back and forth freely like nothing happened.

I have lost too much time and money trying to bring this Jett to reasonable level of performance and it goes to the "graveyard box" immediately.

Adios Jett60!

I will use new EVO60 NX modified for C/L and we will see.

Thank you for your thoughts, opinions and suggestions.

Regards,
Matt


Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2016, 05:53:36 AM »
A 0,003" change in a healthy .60's compression is so small that you propably won't notice much change. Also, amount of shims tells nothing as also in "better" engines the carter height tolerance can be quite wide. Especially engines from small production runs can have variations.
As I wrote earlier, you'd better measure the head volume with piston @ tdc and compare it with volume of another healthy engine, unless the difference is a clear, measurable one.
I don't know values for engines meant for nitro fuel, but when I do my experiments, I usually go in 0,1 cubic cm volumetric steps, with a typical 24mm bore of .60 engine that equals about 0,2mm (1/127") shim change, and then proceed to fine tuning.
But, most of many possible faults in engines cause low power. Without more accurate information all this speculation is quite useless. L

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2016, 07:32:10 AM »
Lauri,
If I had the tools needed to completely disassemble the engine, I would check the bearings.
This is the only major thing (with emphasis on major) that is left.

If the bearings baskets are bent or cracked in the crash last year, the way in which the bearings work under load is most likely different than when the prop is flipped by hand.

I will have a lot of time for further investigation when the winter arrives.

In the meantime, I will keep practicing the inverted loops and vertical eights with my Parrot and Toucan and perhaps will find the tools needed to completely disassemble the engine.
M

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Low RPM of modified Jett60
« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2016, 07:43:04 AM »
That is part of my point; to measure head volume you just need to revove the glow plug, then use a 2ml syringe with needle, and some fuel. No special tools needed.


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