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Author Topic: Engines: Is new better than old?  (Read 2085 times)

Offline frank mccune

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Engines: Is new better than old?
« on: May 29, 2017, 10:30:58 AM »
       Hello All:

       Today, I did an A-B test with a ST G20/.23 vs. a Brodak .25 engine.  I used the same plug, fuel,5% nitro and 25% castor, and prop on both engines.  The test was done as fast as time permitted.  Here are a few findings:

      The Brodak required a few flips to get started and turned an 8x6 prop at 12000 rpm.  The ST was a one flip starter and turned the same prop at 14000 rpm. Both engines were permitted to reach operating temperatures and were adjusted for maximum revs. I think that the Brodak sells for $109.95 and a good used ST can be bought from the Bay for less than $30.00 including shipping.  One of the best ST .23 engines that I have was a swap meet one that cost me $5.00.

       I know that a small sample as the one that I did is not very valid, but it gives one food for thought.

       I have a few drawers full of old style engines that suit me very well for Sport and Stunt flying.  Among them are Fox .40 Stunt circa 1970,Fox .36, OS .30,.35 and .40 stunt engines, ST of many sizes a few Enyas, McCoys etc.  All provide great stunt runs!  Oh yes, I do have some more modern engines ABC, AAC etc. but what do I gain by using the latest technology!

        I guess that I am stuck in the 60's!  Lol

                                                                                                            Be well,

                                                                                                            Frank McCune

                                                                                                                           

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 11:25:53 AM »
I like engines that have good solid muffler mountings, ABC, AAC or ABN. I hate bench running engines, mostly because we don't have any place to do it except at the flying field...which we also don't have, currently. When at the flying field, I want to fly, not fiddle with engines. Absolutely don't want to fiddle with motors! ;)  With an ABC, AAC or ABN, I usually mount the engine in the plane, run a tankful on the ground, and if it seems "stable", I'll fly it a bit rich, maybe with a small-ish prop. Works ok.

The ST .23, being ringed, has that against it. They're a pretty zippy engine, and should be fine for sport, but would need less prop pitch, to keep the speed down. Probably 4" or less. Ringmaster or Flite Streak!
 

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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 01:36:34 PM »
     Hi Steve:

     The ST G20/.23 engine is not ringed.  It is a baffled engine with a steel cylinder and iron piston.

                                                                                                         Cheers,

                                                                                                         Frank McCune

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2017, 02:13:39 PM »
If you're going to compare anything to anything, you need to start by comparing apples to apples -- i.e., the most powerful to the most powerful, the easiest-handling sport engine to the easiest-handling sport engine, etc.  Particularly if you're talking about stunt, you also have to decide if you're going to take the level of knowledge into account (the LA 46 would have been considered a terrible engine in the days when only a 2-4-2 run was to be considered, yet it's a really nice, inexpensive engine with a great 2-2 run).

Just comparing one random "old" engine to one random "new" engine with one random criterion doesn't say much at all.
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Offline Brad LaPointe

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2017, 02:38:02 PM »
Give the Brodak a chance . They take a lot of running in before any performance is on tap . Straight castor is death to these engines !

 We use them for speed limit combat on 10% nitro and 20% synthetic oil , 80 mph is easy . 11/11 oil is OK for stunt . Don't over prop them and you will be much happier.

I have my oldest B. 25 on a Brodak racer ,even with the small intake it out runs the La 25's . During some engine swapping on a porky Skyray the original La 25 was replaced with that same B 25 ... the Brodak was a huge upgrade .

That said putting an Enya SS 30 on the same aircraft turned it into a combat plane want to be.

Brad

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2017, 10:07:59 PM »
I generally agree with the above observations. The ST G20/23 was a hot-rod, close kin to the most powerful 15s/2.5cc engines of the day, and legendary. The Brodak engine is a pretty inexpensive "throwback" engine.IF you want to compare apples to apples, try the STG20/23 to a NovaRossi 3.5, or even a FORA 15 FAI speed engine. But you know the answer already. Either the 25FP or new (another very low-ball sport engine once available for $49) or the "new" 25LA will likely eat the ST for breakfast. And in either case, raw RPM on 8-6 props has nothing to do with stunt performance.

    Note that your other engines do not provide "excellent stunt runs" where you define "excellent stunt run" in terms of the last 30 years. An "excellent stunt run" has generally been spinning a ~4" pitch prop at around 11,000-12,000 RPM with nearly infinite tunability, and at least a moderately effective muffler/pipe, usually with no "phase change", like a constant 4-stroke or a constant 2-stroke.  Your 40/50/60 STs and Foxes won't do that, I know, I used to use them too.

     If all you want to do is sport flying, then, maybe, but replacing a Fox 35 with a 20FP provides a drastic performance inprovement, in addition to being nice and quiet is dead-nuts reliable, has next to no vibration, and can be run on cheap fuel that you can get anywhere.

    You can do whatever you want, of course, and if you have serviceable engines, by all means use them. But don't let nostalgia cloud your perspective, a lot of this have been through that era and wound up where we are today for pretty good reasons.

     Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 01:40:21 PM »
Extremely  few  40 to 50  year old engines  that will even come close to the ones of today, the only ones close,  that comes to mind right now is the  HP40  ,  or  maybe  the  K&B  40

Randy

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 03:49:37 PM »
Ugo Rossi and Juares Garofalli have been in the engine bidness a long time.  Same-same OS.  The other engine-maker you named is a great business man, but not really an engine man.
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Engines: Is new better than old?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2017, 08:45:49 PM »
Ugo Rossi and Juares Garofalli have been in the engine bidness a long time.  Same-same OS.  The other engine-maker you named is a great business man, but not really an engine man.

And unfortunate but both have been dead for a while now ,ST was sold to the Chinese a long time back,  I see very little of  Rossi, ( their 15s  back in the  70s  were GREAT little motors ) While most mfg. were making  single by pass baffled engines  . In  the 1960s  HP   was making the first model of the .61  which had a bell type rear rotary valve and Schnuerle porting design, both were unheard features of in the 1960's. Soon the .61 evolved into a front intake version which proved to be more suitable for conventional model airplanes. The HP 40 soon followed, this was  the dawning of the modern  high performance model engines.
Garofalli did make inroads into more performance with his  " Air Foil " porting, but this proved to be  just a take on Dr Schnurle's loop charging arrangement, and I am sure  subject to challenge . You can see this on the  G-21 35 combat series engines, and  his popular  G-40 ABC  pylon engines. OS and most all others started making  loop charged  designs  soon after  HP showed  the way,  OS did this in 1973.   This technology, even as old as it was, is leading the field in high performance engines  Today

Randy


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