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Author Topic: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal  (Read 3358 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« on: January 28, 2017, 03:18:45 PM »
Got a couple of Cameron* 19's from eBay.  Between them there's enough parts to build one good engine.

It has a full-height cylinder block, as with modern practice, but I can't get the liner out with the usual technique of using a block of wood in the exhaust port and cranking the piston up.  At least part of this is because the prop drive isn't positive -- the end of the crank is tapered, as is the inside of the prop drive, so the torque to the crank is severely limited.  Also, I have no idea what the fit is between the case and the liner.

I haven't yet used heat beyond what's comfortable to hold in my hand -- that's next on my list, but I have some work to do in front of this computer, so I figured I'd yelp for help now.

So I'm looking for suggestions on how to get this out.  Are there other techniques I should be considering?  How else might I safely remove a liner from an engine, without using the piston and crank as a press?

Thanks.

* If you haven't heard of them please send me a PM and I'll start another thread -- I really, really want this one to be focused on how to get the d****d liner out.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 08:53:11 PM »
Never mind -- I answered my own question.

I had thought that the sleeve was stepped, as are the OS and Fox engines that I've had apart.  Instead, it's a constant OD and it's located by a step in the bottom of the crankcase.  There's a big square land for the head that's part of the case -- I had thought that was the sleeve, so when the actual sleeve moved by a little bit I didn't notice it and despaired unnecessarily.  Here's a picture with the sleeve more obviously out.

So, it was just a simple case of me outsmarting myself.  Now I need to figure out how to get the sleeve out of the other case when there's no piston in there.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2017, 09:23:28 PM »
Hah.  Done.  All the good bits are in the top picture, all the bad bits on the bottom. 

All the good bits are in the crock pot now, and the bad bits are assembled and tossed in my random old engine bucket.

I may have a nifty vintage engine out of this!

AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2017, 07:37:18 AM »
Congrats on your success at outsmarting the Cameron, Tim.  ;)
They come up for auction fairly often and there was a time I hankered after one just 'cause it wasn't a familiar name.
Looks to maybe be a shaker, with that tiny counterweight.
Good luck with it.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2017, 09:08:06 AM »
Congrats on your success at outsmarting the Cameron, Tim.  ;)
They come up for auction fairly often and there was a time I hankered after one just 'cause it wasn't a familiar name.
Looks to maybe be a shaker, with that tiny counterweight.
Good luck with it.

Hmm.  Could be -- I'm not good at eyeballing counterweight sizes.  I ended up with it by, well, outsmarting myself -- I bought the first one off of eBay because it was $11, without noticing that it was missing the piston & rod (it was clear in the pictures). 

Then I almost didn't buy the second one, because the crankcase has been butchered -- I think by someone trying to turn it into an RC engine.  I was about to get off of eBay when I realized that what I was seeing wasn't a butchered-up engine, but very possibly a good piston & rod.

It looks like it's going to be a fairly high performer, at least for it's time -- there's a lot of venturi area, and someone cared enough to put significant deSaxe offset into the crankcase.  I'll put up a run report when I get it assembled.

There's not a lot of information about them on the web -- it looks like they were mostly into car engines, and just did the model aviation stuff as an offshoot.  I certainly never heard of them, but I didn't start lusting after engines in earnest until the mid '70's.  They strike me as the Studebaker of model engines.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 09:36:17 AM »
While not of the .19, http://sceptreflight.com/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Index.html has tests of smaller Camerons.
I've not owned one (Musssst........resiiiiiiiiiist.........the URRRRRGE!!!!) but I have read (maybe in those tests) that they're well designed and well made engines.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 09:49:01 AM »
blank
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 09:36:19 AM by Motorman »

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 10:04:36 AM »
FWIW, there're 1/2 doz of different sizes and types on the 'bay right now.
Following on MM's recommendations, I always treat a newly reassembled (for whatever reason) iron/steel engine to a quasi-rebreak-in for the first 1/2 hr or so of running.
But then, I enjoy bench running engines anyhoo.  #^
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 03:04:32 PM »
Check your fits and clearances when building an engine from different engine parts. I would lap the top and bottom of that sleeve. Sleeves like that sometimes have some kind or sealer between the case and sleeve.

MM

Thanks for the tips.

I saw no sign of sealer -- both sleeves pushed out without a problem, without anything stuck to them that said anything other than "castor residue" to me.  Is there anything that I might have missed?

What end would the lapping serve?  Not trying to be a smartass -- I just want to know what I'm trying to achieve, so I don't achieve a great big mess.  I'm not sure I have the tools or the touch to improve things with lapping at any rate.

The crank seems to fit nicely into the case, I haven't checked the sleeve yet, but the 'bad' sleeve went into the 'bad' case with a very good feel to it, and of course the 'good' piston, sleeve and rod traveled as a set.

I really doubt that this is going to be an everyday engine for me.  I have a design in mind from 1954 or so; I'm thinking of building a plane just to show off the engine (by putting it in a full cowling -- hmm).  I'd probably fly it a few times, then fill it full of after-run oil and hang it on the wall.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 08:49:30 PM »
blank
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 09:35:11 AM by Motorman »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 09:47:37 PM »
So, on cleaning the thing up, I found out that the head gasket is fiber.  The liner sits down into the case a bit, making a recess, and the head has a groove that's maybe .01" deep (I'm not sure exactly how much -- it's distinctly there from a foot away).  It looks like the thing is designed so that the head will be aluminum-to-aluminum with the case, with the head gasket compressed hard between the sleeve and the head.

What in heck should I use for a head gasket?  Is there some place to get fiber gasket material that's around 20mil thick?  Where would I even start looking?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2017, 04:41:12 PM »
Try a transmission shop for the gasket.  It seems that a tranny kit includes assorted unneeded gaskets.  I have some odd ones that mike .01 but no .02.  If you want a few email me your address. 
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2017, 10:28:13 PM »
Unlike typical eBay baffle piston engines, which often come with the cylinder rotated...perhaps also the piston and head...but not always. Tim now needs to get the cylinder installed with the exhaust port on the correct side and also the cylinder installed with the bottom down and the top up. Hmmmm...

As for the head gasket, a bit of work with a real depth mike should give an idea of how thick it should be. I'd use aluminum or copper, but even brass would probably be ok if annealed, and you know how to do that.  D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2017, 09:38:42 AM »
Unlike typical eBay baffle piston engines, which often come with the cylinder rotated...perhaps also the piston and head...but not always. Tim now needs to get the cylinder installed with the exhaust port on the correct side and also the cylinder installed with the bottom down and the top up. Hmmmm...

As for the head gasket, a bit of work with a real depth mike should give an idea of how thick it should be. I'd use aluminum or copper, but even brass would probably be ok if annealed, and you know how to do that.  D>K Steve

The sleeve is indexed so that you can't put it in upside down or backwards -- it's very boring that way.

I'm not sure that the head is smooth enough for a metal gasket -- but I'll take a look.  It certainly looks like the original design intent was for the head to seat metal-to-metal on the case at the same time that the gasket sealed the sleeve to the head.  I don't know why Cameron wanted it this way, so I don't know how wise it is to change their methods.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Gerald Arana

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2017, 12:54:26 PM »
Hmm.  Could be -- I'm not good at eyeballing counterweight sizes.  I ended up with it by, well, outsmarting myself -- I bought the first one off of eBay because it was $11, without noticing that it was missing the piston & rod (it was clear in the pictures). 

Then I almost didn't buy the second one, because the crankcase has been butchered -- I think by someone trying to turn it into an RC engine.  I was about to get off of eBay when I realized that what I was seeing wasn't a butchered-up engine, but very possibly a good piston & rod.




Tim, I'm 23 years older than you.............(I know, BFD) and I remember these engines very well. At that time I couldn't afford one. Then I got married (Big mistake) and couldn't afford a sheet of balsa!

Somebody else will have the history of what happened to them, I don't.

Let us know (and post a photo of it running) what happened. It'll be interesting to know what your opinion of this "old" is.

Cheers, Jerry

It looks like it's going to be a fairly high performer, at least for it's time -- there's a lot of venturi area, and someone cared enough to put significant deSaxe offset into the crankcase.  I'll put up a run report when I get it assembled.

There's not a lot of information about them on the web -- it looks like they were mostly into car engines, and just did the model aviation stuff as an offshoot.  I certainly never heard of them, but I didn't start lusting after engines in earnest until the mid '70's.  They strike me as the Studebaker of model engines.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2017, 02:22:32 PM »
Did a web search, found less than the last time I did a web search (I hate that).  http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Cameron%20.15.html
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 01:07:39 PM »
Send Larry Fernandez an email about them. Tell him I sent you.  LL~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 09:15:45 AM »
Tim, did you ever get it to run?
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2017, 09:55:30 AM »
Tim, did you ever get it to run?

Been stalled.  Work.  I'm thinking of seeing if anyone wants to try laser-cutting the gaskets -- at least with my unsteady hand, it's either getting someone to laser cut, or making a die for just one.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline tom brightbill

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2017, 07:58:43 PM »
Ask Scott (Riese), he makes gaskets all the time.
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Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Cameron 19 (or other early 1950's engine) P&L Removal
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2017, 08:35:39 PM »
I should have thought of him first thing.  Of course!!
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border


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