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Author Topic: Super Satan  (Read 27275 times)

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2016, 02:56:27 PM »
Great story Andre, Although I don't remember the occasion quite as vividly, I transported a half dozen of those planes to the Nats that year. My first Nats. Larry was quite busy at the bike shop in those days so he flew out. Since I only flew one or two events, I had plenty of room. It was huge fun even though I didn't win, or even come close! Profile Carrier. Missed landings. Fox .36xrc, of course. My hand was shaking with excitement. Took a few years but I finally got there! I do remember getting to meet some of the 'real' combat guys at that session. Maybe I saw you fly but just can't recall........ahhh.   TS

PS   Tom L. has become the LS combat plane historian and achivist. His work really does justice to those designs. Actually, there are several fellows around here, who were the 'kids' in the Fighting UMAC'ers , that turn out some extraordinary airplanes. There may be more but I am thinking of Tom Luciano, Paul Riskala, Frank Imbriaco and, last but not least, Bob Hunt.

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2016, 09:41:15 PM »
Hi Tom! 

Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad you enjoyed my effort to type it!! (I'm getting lazier in my old age!)

Hi 'ya C.T.!

Well, a LOT happened at that Nats. I remember details about some of my experiences... and yet only remember other experiences vaguely. I shared the Duke/Larry/Me experience as best I can remember it. Perhaps you were one of those that walked up on us during that session?

Speaking of the '72 Nats being an epic adventure for me: I met and ate supper with Phil Granderson (he was a ton of fun), got to meet Howard Rush, "The Butcher", and I think I recall also meeting Dan Domino and Frank Imbriaco (though I'm a bit hazy on those two) along with several other "noted and famous" combat personalities that I've forgotten! LOL! Oh yes, met the Bush Brothers (they flew their "Dinosaur"), along with seeing/talking with many other combat personalities of the time: Dick Stubblefield, Carlton Buckstaff, Mike Wheeler... on and on.  It was a genuine "once in a lifetime" experience.

The frosting on the entire '72 Nats experience for me was Larry though, pure and simple. That was the beginning of a friendship that lasts to this day.

There are some great guys (and gals) in this hobby.

Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2016, 04:39:16 AM »
Wow! I do enjoy talking with Larry regarding his designs and always end up talking SS. I try to retain as much as possible.  Just found out on Sunday that Sterling approached Larry on kitting the SS but he said he was already committed to Goldberg and wouldn't walk away. 6 months later the winder came out. I will continue to ask questions as I really enjoy the conversation and history.

As far as the fighting UMACer kids, all I can say is thank you Tom! To be mentioned in the same sentence as those gentlemen is a true honor!


Thanks,
Tom
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Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2016, 06:38:48 AM »
And those are just the guys I know. I'm sure there are others out there who are still at it. One I forgot was Frank Pisz. He came east a couple of years ago. His models are also outstanding! A real gentleman. Maybe when he gets done with his REAL airplane he will have some time to build some more models.

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2016, 12:01:21 PM »
stunt/combat flier Joe Yau just sent me a picture of his new Blitz , he's getting ready for Combat G.....really fun old stuff.

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2016, 12:16:09 PM »
(fighting UMACer kids)
 I WAS GRABBING SOME HARDWARE WHEN I WAS 13. y1
AL
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 12:34:46 PM by Al Ferraro »

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2016, 11:48:48 AM »
I have ordered a couple of parts packs for the SS.  I want to have them for the Nostalgia combat class in Tucson in January.   Sounds like it would be a fun event, and an excuse to push the builds on these!

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2016, 12:23:50 PM »
Blitz's are nice
satins are kin
use a Nemesis
if you want to win

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2016, 12:40:28 PM »
To add to Ken's note

I have one remaining never fired Nelson N36c 2014 vintage engine that will make a Pat Johnston supplied Nemesis short kit and Howard Rush recommended built notes...absolutely cork screw you into the ground with a NOS rev up wood 8x8....grin
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2016, 01:10:47 PM »
That would be more of a racer than combat model!

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2016, 03:01:39 PM »
Back to the silk for a moment.     Would this be the stuff?   

http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/silk/silk-habotai-5mm.html

Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2016, 04:42:14 AM »
Curious if anyone out there  has used the Lazerworks Super Satan short kit and how it stacks up ; accuracy wise.



Frank,

Walt Umland made 12 Super Satan kits along time ago. I still have mine. Interested?

Dennis

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2016, 12:32:47 PM »
To anyone that has built one of these.  What is the thickness and placement of any shim required to put under the trailing edge when framing the wing to account for the taper, and keep it straight?  The plans have no info on this.   Thanks.

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2016, 03:28:15 PM »
Hey Rich,

there should be a diagram of a wedge on the plan. It tapers on two planes. each one goes under the trailing edge at the rib location. I can pull the plan and post a picture later this evening if that will help.

Tom
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Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2016, 05:59:46 PM »
Thanks Tom.   My plan does not have a section showing this.  Unless I did not look in the right spot!   ;D

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2016, 06:35:15 PM »
1
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2016, 06:42:21 PM »
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2016, 06:43:10 PM »
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2016, 06:44:11 PM »
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2016, 06:45:11 PM »
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2016, 06:46:17 PM »
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2016, 06:47:06 PM »
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2016, 06:51:18 PM »
7

Rich,
  I made the wedge and hardened the rails with CA. Then placed a piece of wood in the wedge ,sanded to shape, then cut in increments labeling as shown.

I'll be glad to help further, if needed.

Tom
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2016, 07:02:25 PM »
"Back to the silk for a moment.     Would this be the stuff?   

http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/silk/silk-habotai-5mm.html"

that's the stuff. Ive had good luck with thai as mentioned previously.

Good Luck!
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Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2016, 09:13:32 PM »
Thanks for the pics of the plans.  Mine are certainly different.

Could you give me the dimensions of that wedge block that you made? (thickness at ends, length, width etc. )  That looks like a good idea making it one solid length.

Offline Bob Mears

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2016, 07:52:36 AM »

Frank,

Walt Umland made 12 Super Satan kits along time ago. I still have mine. Interested?

Dennis
How complete is the Umland kit?
Home of the control line combat museum.

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2016, 08:45:11 AM »
Rich,

I made my wedge/jig 12" long giving me shims that were (3/4")x (1-3/8")x (x-taper). you can make it any length you want that is divisible by 16. For instance, I have templates of my fathers from 1966 and a little package of shims. he made his shims 1/4" wide. I made it longer just thinking I would have more contact under the trailing edge. As you can see Larry suggests 4 or 8 inches. which yields a shim of either a 1/4 or 1/2 inch. Also, he states that the side rails can be both 3/32-0 with nil effect. I made mine the 64th different just because I was trying to be absolutely dead on.

Hope I'm making sense!!

Tom
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Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2016, 09:12:05 AM »
I guess I do not understand.  How much does it taper from root to tip?  I do not see anywhere where it tells you the thickness of the shims, at a certain location, to support the trailing edge at the right height.

 I have an idea of cutting a foam core, and then using the shuck to build the wings on.  I would fiberglass it, to protect it from glue.  Otherwise, I do not think I stand a chance at building this thing straight the way it was originally done.

 Interesting I did see in the notes that he had an idea of building in a slight warp to help at launch.  I am of the opinion that is not a good idea! 

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2016, 09:18:13 AM »
If you can get one of Walter Umlands kits, go for it.  The Sweet Sweep was easy build following his instructions.  I would imagine the Super Satin would be like wise. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2016, 11:19:24 AM »
Rich,

1.  lets make the thing I called Super Satan wedge/jig. This is just a tool to make the shims.
  A. take a piece of 1/8" lite ply cut 2x12 inches .
  B. mount 2 rail pieces of 3/32" sq.x12"   mount them 1-3/8" apart
  C. Block sand the rails so one end is 3/32 from ply and the other is flush with plywood. In other words you have a constant slope from 3/32 to zero on 12 inches.
  D. seal/harden the rail so you can use it as a guide rail to sand a piece of 3/32


 2. making the shim blank
   A. tack a piece of 3/32 x 1-3/8 x 12 piece a balsa to the jig you just made.
   B. Block Sand to a wedge shape using the guide rails.
  C. pop off the piece of balsa. you now have a piece of wood 1-3/8x12 piece of wood that is 3/32 on one end and 0 at the other.
  D. take a pen and make lines every 3/4". you should end up with 16 shims.
  E.  label them as noted  O 12 I12 O11 I11...... O for outboard, I for Inboard.
  F. Now cut your 3/4" lines and you will end up with 16 perfectly tapered shims.
  G. Place each shim under the trailing edge sheeting at the corresponding rib.

It sounds like a lot but you could do this in under a half hour.

Yes, that is also an idea of making a lost foam fixture. Bob Hunt and I have been discussing making one.
He has made numerous killer cradles already.
my Blitz and Straight wing Satan were made in them. Actually they were completely framed less tail booms and pacifier pod with never pulling them out of the cradle. Definitely a faster way to go, if you were to mass produce these planes.

Hope this helped!

Tom

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Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2016, 11:56:40 AM »
Ok Tom,  I got it now!   Thanks a bunch.

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2016, 09:10:43 AM »
Color going on it now.

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2016, 01:01:59 PM »
  Nice job.
Yellow  paint coming? (lol.)
Don't think I ever saw a different color...
The L.S influence on the East coast, ya know ?
 IMO, the SS is arguably  the nastiest looking combat ship of all time.

Good Luck and be on your toes when you fly it.

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2016, 02:08:04 PM »
 It is gonna be red.  With a black devils tail like the Jr.     What in particular would I need to look out for when flying?   I am gonna start with a choked down speed limit set up, then open it up later and add faster prop. 

 The thing is so small, it has to be fast.  Especially with this Fox mk IV I have installed!

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2016, 06:22:45 PM »
Oh, no bad habits.
Plenty stable.  In the M.A.N. Super Satan article , Scarinzi penned that when maneuvering, it as though the SS bounces off a rubber wall.
If you haven't flown a model this fast, it'll surprise you with how quickly it can change direction with a really hot mill.

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2016, 09:06:27 AM »
   Well that is good to hear.   I used to fly modern Fast with Nelson .36's, so I am used to going really fast, and turning tight.     I think one of the things I look forward to the most is experiencing the difference from then and now.   Thanks for all of the info.  Should have her ready to fly by this weekend.

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2016, 08:41:54 PM »
Well, I hope the red is OK, even though it is out of tradition.  THink I will do the next one the same scheme except yellow and black.

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2016, 09:16:46 PM »
Hi Rich:

The Super Satan relies on being built straight and true, being carefully balanced, and light weight to make the tight turns. As I recall, the later model Fox "MK" series are noticeably heavier than the Fox 36X type engine that the Super Satan was designed for. Therefore, your C/G will be farther forward (nose heavy) and your wing loading will be higher. Both factors that will affect its turning. The result will be that it will not perform as good as an original Super Satan... but it will be very, very FAST with the "MK" series engine on it.

Best of luck and have fun!

Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2016, 10:03:07 PM »
Rich, you should move the hole for the pacifier to the center of the pod and keep it the same distance to the leading edge. The way you have it it will put to much side persure on the bladder when you fill it up.
Al

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2016, 09:17:38 AM »
  Your right Al,  I will move the hole.  I was not thinking about it really, and just placed it where it showed on the plans.

I always equated that these combat planes are like balancing something on the head of a pin. The right size, engine, balance, nose/tail moments.  When it all comes together it is sweet.   I am sure it will not be possible to experience the perfect SS with my set up, but it is the engine I have, and I doubt this plane, or my next one will ever see a match.  If it does, it will just be a mellow nostalgic event.   I may just be content with having this thing on my wall.  But I do plan to fly it.  This weekend hopefully.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 02:24:54 PM by Rich Perry »

Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2016, 12:41:38 PM »
Rich :
Your Satan looks neat and will be a great  performer. Red looks terrific,too.
 Too bad Larry doesn't use a computer. He'd get a big kick out of what goes on here.
Good Luck and report back !
Frank

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2016, 02:30:11 PM »
Very Cool! Man, you put that together quick!

Best of luck with it!!

Tom
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Offline Russell

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2016, 03:15:04 PM »

...absolutely cork screw you into the ground....grin


 LL~  LL~

Offline Russell

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2016, 03:17:14 PM »
Well, I hope the red is OK, even though it is out of tradition.  THink I will do the next one the same scheme except yellow and black.

The wing looks great. I've never built a SS but now may just do that.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2016, 08:21:38 AM »
I just ordered 2 "parts kits" for the SS from Lazer Works to add into the, getting longer and longer, building que for this winter or next

At $16.70 per kit I suppose all that is in the kit are the ribs

Now off to find a full sized plan the one from this thread does not enlarge and still be able to read the notes

http://www.lazer-works.com/
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2016, 09:42:10 AM »
http://www.controllineplans.com


Go here as he has them listed and he is great with delivery. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2016, 10:18:53 AM »
Here is a pic of the parts laid on the plans.  You actually get everything that is cut to a shape.    You will need sheet stock for sheeting, and strip stock.  The wing spar and leading edge.  Also the engine mount parts.  Maple and such.  (if you need maple let me know, I have a bunch) But the balsa nacelle is provided. The kit is a great deal.  I kinda wonder if it would be worth it for him to offer a Voodoo?     Also, that nice SS logo is provided (the Satan head I got from Brodak).

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2016, 10:28:04 AM »
 So I moved my paci hole.  I surely would have had to do this at some point.   I located these nice rubber grommets at the local hardware store to clean up these bladder exit holes. I use them on my 1/2 A's and speed limit planes. Keeps the covering from tearing.  I am not sure I can pump 5 minutes worth of fuel in there, but then again, I am not sure I want to!

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2016, 11:28:36 AM »
Here is a pic of the parts laid on the plans.  You actually get everything that is cut to a shape.    You will need sheet stock for sheeting, and strip stock.  The wing spar and leading edge.  Also the engine mount parts.  Maple and such.  (if you need maple let me know, I have a bunch) But the balsa nacelle is provided. The kit is a great deal.  I kinda wonder if it would be worth it for him to offer a Voodoo?     Also, that nice SS logo is provided (the Satan head I got from Brodak).


A voodoo kit would be awesome! I saw they have the Von Lopez matador kit. I will be ordering that in the near future!

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Super Satan
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2016, 12:24:31 PM »
WOW!...what a great deal...I suspected for $17 a lot less...but a good deal... now I am much more impressed with the parts count Vs cost

I have a very comprehensive stock of contest and other grades of balsa stock as well as hard wood for engine mounts and fair selection of various Ply woods

I am hoping combat planes get established in Las Vegas and that some day Bob Mears holds a nostalgia event of some sort

Thanks for the reminder on Baxter...I have a bunch of plans from that service and they are all very good

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV


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