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Offline Motorman

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« on: January 05, 2017, 02:56:04 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 04:43:51 PM by Motorman »

Online Paul Smith

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 03:04:23 PM »
The state of the art is a Euro-style big F2d airframe with a Nelson and something that passes for a flyaway shutoff.
Paul Smith

Online mike londke

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 09:24:32 PM »
Big Foamies are common too. Nelson .36's for power is what most use. A few are still using Fox MK 7's. H & R shut off bell crank.  The link has some pics of some Jeff Dawson ships I bought 2 years ago. http://stunthanger.com/smf/combat/fast/msg399204/#msg399204
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Online mike londke

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2017, 09:26:04 PM »
It's run at the Nats the Bladder Grabber and Detroit. Only three places I know. If your K & B's can go 125mph or better they should be ok.
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 07:42:02 AM »
They could go 140 MPH if they built 'em small.  But what I see is a lot bigger (and better turning) now.  So 125 is realistic.  It's mostly about a one-flip start and a quick aggressive attack style.

There is still a pretty good core of FAST fans in Detroit to see the twice-annual contests.
Paul Smith

Online mike londke

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 09:56:38 AM »
They could go 140 MPH if they built 'em small.  But what I see is a lot bigger (and better turning) now.  So 125 is realistic.  It's mostly about a one-flip start and a quick aggressive attack style.

There is still a pretty good core of FAST fans in Detroit to see the twice-annual contests.
My Nellie's run 127 to 133 that's why I said 125 or better. I know some are faster but at that speed what's 5 mph? LOL ;D ;D
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2017, 10:24:26 AM »
Ha..  I love Fast combat and I travel a LOT of miles to JUST WATCH

I got several of the latests run (2014) of the Nelson .36c and can attest they fly a Dawson wing much too fast for my old skills

I have one on the nose of a well built Nemesis II but will most likely have Dane Martin fly it some day when we both are rich enough to go to one of the nostalgia MPH shoot outs ---together

But first he has to get married and prove to his bride that she is NOT number 2 to the FAST airplanes...

Inside joke, Dane can explain if he wants
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2017, 03:38:10 PM »
Lol! I promise honey, you're number 1! So, uh probably no building or flying soon..... lol

Here's mine / Fred's. Dawson fast with a nelson .36. Flys great. Over 125 for sure, and will bite it's own tail in a turn


I got my 5 year old daughter to do most of the covering work



Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2017, 09:09:29 PM »
I brought out my Nelson 36 powerd, 510 sq.in., GRS Barracuda, New Year's Day at GSCB field last Sunday to put on a show for the guys. On 10 nitro, 7.8x6 prop it will hit 118 mph and rip through super tight turns without slowing down. All the guys said holy sh-- how do you hang on to that thing! n~ Flying it really sharpens the reflexs and I bet I was the first person in the US to fire up a big block Nelson up in 2017.
Al, aka BLAST  ;D

Online Paul Smith

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 07:24:56 AM »
A safe bet.
Paul Smith

Offline Ray Richardson

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 06:34:06 AM »
 HI guys, I flew fast in the 70 and 80's using the equipment of that era. My best stock G21 was 114 and modified Fox MKIV at 118.  They were setup for combat flying not out right speed. Those were the fastest speeds i could reliably fly and point those things. To me at those speeds it was easy to lose them in a heated match especially if it got into overhead eights. You could easily lose it in the backside of a eight behind your head, even leaning back to look for it. You guys must have reflexes of Batman if you can fly at speeds of 125 - 130 plus. I know i couldn't and i don't want to fly you lol. I've never owned or flew a Nelson, so i don't know it's potential. Good hunting                                         

Online Paul Smith

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 07:51:03 AM »
As I recall, we were all trying break 100 until the ST C35 came out.   Then anybody could do 110 and people who tried had could hit 120.

Then the lines went from .015" to .018" and everybody was back bumping at 100.  We needed the bigger lines because planes were getting away all the time.

When Duke gave me my first Fox Mark III, I went from 98 to 113 on the same airframe. 

I have one Nelson, but I don't have a Fast time on it.  It tore the plane apart before I could get a time.  But on a couple of Slows, it was over 100 easy.
Paul Smith

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 08:09:38 AM »
The Nelson killed fast.
It was too easy to go too fast for most to fly it.
MAAC 8177

Online Paul Smith

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 10:02:06 AM »
Very true.  Along with the refusal to go from .018 to .021" lines. 
The logic was the same as 015-to-018 when the Supertiger came out.
But they just wanted to go fast and the flyaways triggered the shutoff rule.
The shutoff rule reduced the event to ghost of itself.

Kill combat with F2D equipment is the modern way to fly Fast. 
Only one plane per match and the kill reduces losses.
Paul Smith

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2017, 10:25:24 AM »
The Nelson killed fast.
It was too easy to go too fast for most to fly it.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I wasn't around so my opinion is based on looking back. I understand that buying a nelson can help with the speed. But who can buy a nelson? Even when they were plentiful, they weren't that easy to get. And the price! Woah. I'd go up against anyone flying a nelson with my fox mk4. I'd lose because I suck, but I could keep up. Fast equipment is as esoteric as most speed equipment.

Fast combat and high performance 1/2A are seemingly in the same boat. Difficult to find local contests. Fast combat being slightly less available.

But, we're trying for a resurgence in Las Vegas! We've got some strong backing and lots of friends to help

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 10:59:40 AM »
They were easy to buy when they came out, just call Henry and send him some cash  :)
Most of those flying fast and slow did.  I had stopped flying fast by then, bad practice for F2D.

I plugged away at slow with my G21s, still managed to win a few contests.
But it was just not as much fun anymore. At about the same time everyone started buying models instead of building.
So there was no more variety in designs, and being able to build a good model was no longer any advantage.

Final nail in the coffin for slow, locally at least, was the introduction of speed limit.  Got around the shut-off issue, and the equipment was simpler.
MAAC 8177

Offline Brad LaPointe

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2017, 11:59:26 AM »
The Nelson would be a bargain along side some of the really fast Foxes. New cranks,P&L ,heads and bearings would quickly add up to more than a new Nelly . With basic cleaning and care the Nelson would last for seasons.

Over time the Nelson could prove even more economic . The lower nitro required to achieve speeds faster than most felt comfortable with ..... was a real saving . Unless you were really unlucky taking soil samples Nelson's were hard to wear out . Foxe's not so much.

Brad

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2017, 01:23:19 PM »
I think I'm looking at what's an easier combat discipline to get into now. The original question, was is fast still around. Kinda, there's still some big contests. But like Paul said, F2D fast is what is hot now. That's all I have flown in contests. Fast rules with F2D equipment.

I went from never having flown or seen combat in my life, to competing in F2D fast in three weeks! The equipment is just really readily available.

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2017, 01:58:36 PM »
Dane,
speed limit is the way for you to go. It's any engine, just go x mph. In the nw, 80 mph with a shut off, elsewhere it may be 75 with no shut off. I would not fly combat without one....too many lawyers.

Ken

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2017, 06:10:54 PM »
Dane,
speed limit is the way for you to go. It's any engine, just go x mph. In the nw, 80 mph with a shut off, elsewhere it may be 75 with no shut off. I would not fly combat without one....too many lawyers.

Ken

Good point Ken. The gents out at whittier fly speed limit with F2D equipment. I got plenty of that (for now). Joey's a bruiser... gotta repair 5 planes.... lol. I need more time! They fly speed limit on Sundays, and that's usually the day we leave in the morning. We'll get it figured out.

Combat is fun, amazing, all that. But I need to get an F40 speed ship over 160 this year!

Offline phil c

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2017, 07:01:31 PM »
The Nelson killed fast.
It was too easy to go too fast for most to fly it.
Agree, Pat.  I never bothered trying to get over 110 or so.  Being a few years older now the problems are different, but it would take some practice to get dialed in for Fast.  A good F2D is harder to fly, but the damn fast planes pull 20+ lbs which gets old even in a 2 min. match.  It's still fun to pull one out a couple times a year and do the stunt pattern.

Paul Smith commented about 021 lines.  The only actual line break I ever had in fast was with 021's.  They got sliced in two in a line cross, but the shutoff worked well.  The planes were down low, my arced up and across the circle, climbing by the time it hit the edge the engine was shutting down and it glided in with minor damage.

In some situations the 021's are stronger when the lines are wrapped up due to the larger size strands.  Standard F2D lines are stronger but too small in diameter.  If you really want strong lines find somebody making 7strand, .018 brassplated music wire(like F2D).  Stranded music wire is way stronger than any stainless lines and very tough.

Phil C

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Offline phil c

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2017, 08:54:18 PM »
Ha..  I love Fast combat and I travel a LOT of miles to JUST WATCH

I got several of the latests run (2014) of the Nelson .36c and can attest they fly a Dawson wing much too fast for my old skills

I have one on the nose of a well built Nemesis II but will most likely have Dane Martin fly it some day when we both are rich enough to go to one of the nostalgia MPH shoot outs ---together

But first he has to get married and prove to his bride that she is NOT number 2 to the FAST airplanes...

Inside joke, Dane can explain if he wants

Fred, I hope you built that Nemesis with full span spar webs and spruce spars.  It is a small plane and a Nelson, even on a tame prop, will pull it much faster than it was designed to go!
phil Cartier

Online Paul Smith

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2017, 09:51:39 AM »
When they first came out Nelson 15's were $175 and Nelson 36's were $275.

On the downstroke that seemed like a killer.  But in reality they lasted a lot longer than cheap engines and all the customers were satisfied customers.  An $80 engine that falls apart before the first contest is no bargain.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 12:16:10 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Mears

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2017, 08:19:12 AM »
Nelsons were the cheapest engines I've ever owned. Just bolt them on and go faster than you can fly. I dialed mine back to 117mph. that was MY speed limit. I could get Foxes to run  117mph on a smaller plane. But foxes were just a kit. First thing to do was new bearings and new piston and sleeve and a new head. Then I have a Fox that cost as much as a Nelson, and blows plugs ever flight.
Home of the control line combat museum.

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2017, 10:17:49 PM »
The Baddest of all the Fox Combat engines. :o
Al

Offline phil c

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2017, 11:47:51 AM »
The Mk VII Fox 36 was a pretty good combat motor out of the box.  I got a couple, I'm on a budget!, when they came out.  After some break in and testing we found they wouldn't turn as much prop as a Nelson.
Took a little experimenting, but an 8/6 wood pylon prop, thinned out about 1/3 thickness towards the tip worked well enough to pull a big plane well over 110mph.  The sound was kind a real screech 'cause I think the prop tips were getting pretty close to the speed of sound.
phil Cartier

Online Paul Smith

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2017, 01:07:35 PM »
I agree that with high RPM, high airspeed and maybe a bit of a wind, prop tips can get into the transonic range.  This causes some very bad things that don't take long to happen.

One reason for stubby-looking props.
Paul Smith

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2017, 04:16:22 PM »
I had a MKv11. I bought it for my kid. It wold run just under 120 with the usual fox mix of 40%N. It was boxed up after David decided mountain climbing was better. I sold it to Isky who later told me it blew up. Just another Fox story. Meanwhile, the Nellies would run anywhere from 130 to 120 depending on what I wanted. Each year \i would change the rear bearing as it was the weak link and nothing ever went wrong with them.
paul is right, lowest cost combat engie ever made.

K

Online mike londke

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2017, 06:37:53 PM »
While we are on the subject of Nelsons, does anybody have any they are willing to part with for a fair price? I'd like to own 1 more.
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Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2017, 09:21:04 AM »
sold mine to Jeff n Buzz

Offline phil c

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2017, 11:08:17 AM »
I agree that with high RPM, high airspeed and maybe a bit of a wind, prop tips can get into the transonic range.  This causes some very bad things that don't take long to happen.

One reason for stubby-looking props.

Fortunately wood props are pretty fatigue resistant but too fragile and never lasted long enough to break.
phil Cartier

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2017, 11:33:17 AM »
I used to run Mejzlic's 8 x 6. Ron C used a 9 x 5 apc and it pulled better through the corners. All CF reinforced.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2017, 12:18:56 PM »
I'm running an APC 8x5 right now. Maybe not the fastest thing, but it turns like crazy and don't slow down.

Offline phil c

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2017, 06:10:49 PM »
I'm running an APC 8x5 right now. Maybe not the fastest thing, but it turns like crazy and don't slow down.

The stock, sport 8/5 works fine for 5-10 runs.  If the motor is really turning up like it should, 25,000 rpm, they will start to show grey cracks about a third of the way out the blade.  Try to bend it and it will break, so you know it's not safe to fly anymore.
phil Cartier

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2017, 06:25:33 PM »
The stock, sport 8/5 works fine for 5-10 runs.  If the motor is really turning up like it should, 25,000 rpm, they will start to show grey cracks about a third of the way out the blade.  Try to bend it and it will break, so you know it's not safe to fly anymore.

I guess the part of my post that I left out was, I've heard that's not the best idea for that engine.
What else is out there for it?

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2017, 02:09:27 PM »
I always ran a stock 8-6 sport prop, they would spin 24,200 very consistently.  The prop of choice in the day seemed to be the 7.8 x 6, but they were a little more expensive and not as easy to come by. Watching for the grey stress lines is always a good idea.  Also it is important to not be in the wrong spot if a blade lets go.  To the directs sides and slightly forward of the running engine.

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2017, 08:55:29 PM »
Use the APC 8 x 6 sport prop. The hub is thick and I have not seen one shed. If they ever develop a whitish line around the hub, break it and toss.
Cheap, available and work great.

K

Offline Bob Mears

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2017, 06:15:06 PM »
I ran the Master airscrew 8x6 scimitar and the Bolly 8x6 and they worked great
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Offline phil c

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2017, 09:04:24 PM »
5 pitch is kind of nice because the plane holds speed better, especially in tighter maneuvers.  Maybe APC would make a long strand, 8.25/5?

When you are running a Nelson keep track of the number of runs and a guess on the airtime.  From Bob Burch he figured out that the stock bearing has an estimated life of around 6 hrs.  Maybe 120 runs.  Blowing a bearing is likely to take out seriously non-replaceable other parts.  So he figured out, or bought I don't know which, full complement bearings with 23 or so balls(all that would fit comfortably).  They have essentially unlimited life expectancy.  I did a similar thing on several Foxes, by hand.  It is a pain in the but.  On the plus side they never broke.
phil Cartier

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2017, 09:25:45 AM »
Henry sold me three 2014 N36c versions with ceramic bearings  ( I think the rear one)

I bet Dane, as well as I, would like to know Phil's or any other folks thoughts about the life expectancy of ceramic vs Henry's standard bearing

Academic for me, as taking what Phil said above, and my one or two flights a year on the remaining engine I kept, should mean that the engine and bearing will outlive me as long as I keep it from gumming or rusting

Side question:
There used to be a web page on combat,

At this link----  http://www.clcombat.info/index.html

Lots of great stuff about....the people, air-frames, engines, and a lot of other good info that is lost

Within the engines pages was a Nelson on Nelsons where Henry writes about setting up and feeding the engine...setting up talked about compression and head shims vs Nitro and feeding was his recommended fuel mix

I wish I had copied and saved the article on my computer

Does anyone have a copy of that "Nelson on Nelson's" article to share?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 12:31:59 PM by Fredvon4 »
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2017, 12:15:52 PM »
I'm pretty sure that was Preston Briggs site. I miss it too.

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2017, 01:59:26 AM »
The Nelson killed fast.
It was too easy to go too fast for most to fly it.


Absolutely Pat.

Once I figured out which end was up, I could pretty much count on going through several rounds -  against good competition - with one airplane in the late '50s, '60s and '70s.

When the Nelsons became commonplace, what I saw was (1) Big, big dollars to compete (teens typically have great reactions and learn quickly, but how many could afford Nelsons?), and (2) Wholesale destruction of airplanes because too many (dare I say most?) competing couldn't possibly handle the speeds.

For me, it became a non-event.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2017, 09:59:27 AM »
That was became my problem be sides the rule change.  The speeds were was just too much.  If I kept a plane between 100-110 mph I could mostly keep up with it.  It also helps a lot to have people to fly with.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2017, 11:43:04 AM »
I am absolutely NOT the guy to disagree with Dennis Leonhardi but I have to comment:

Back story I was kinda acceptable combat pilot in the late 60s Oakland bay area with Mongoose and Enya 35 ...no inherited (genitic) talent and no true idea of very good equipment but the flying seemed easy and natural...and I fondly remembering the Adrenalin and fun!!!!

When I retired, I went RC as a "always wanted to do" part of my aero modeling hobby... I sucked... and the buy in was pretty expensive... So, I dug out an old beat to hell, moved all over the world, Mathis Mongoose and my original 5224 Enya 35. I tried to re-teach self C/L combat flying...disaster...

I found several web sites, met Jeff Dawson through a web friend, and traveled great distances for help ....got current equipment and later traveled up to long running Bladder grabber...where I saw, that if I wanted to actually compete, I needed to get more flying experience, and much better equipment

I know Phil Cartier and a whole host of others like Bobby Mears are loving .15 FAI combat and  Speed limit   so there are not many true FAST combat events...

The disagreement is not so much against the cost of buy in comment that is true...but rather the notion that Nelson engines killed FAST because they were TOO fast....   Hooey... matched speed is important and longevity of air frame... so most pilots of what I observed were more or less running common dependable props and fuel mixes--- and a lot of times I saw what seemed/sounded like a much faster plane get killed in the first 30 seconds

I actually thought (before my MC accident )  I could train and get ahead of the Super Fast plane and engine...Mostly because;

The guys competing at the Bladder Grabber ---were ALL Broken, crippled, bad back, aging, geriatric characters and seemed to be flying in control at 120+ MPH.... hell Bob Carver at 82 was sort of able to acquit himself quite well despite NOT being fully able to start his own engine and run to the handle... once in the air he was a challenge to fly against for all his opponents

Hell even the FAST 1/2a planes with Cyclon and Fora engines are a screaming buzz blur to watch outside the circle...but the OLD farts were mostly ahead of the plane and had super thrilling matches....Jeff Rein is so fun to watch in this event... his body language well disguising his well beat to crap body... I have witnessed his personal hot tub recovery after day one flying 1/2a FAST

Dawson at 50ish and Ron Columbo at nearing 60 seemed to me to be totally in control as well as Ken Burdick, Don McCay, Jeff Rein, and a whole bunch of,  13 or so, other seasoned men all, in their own rite, combat warriors of exceptional skill

The cost of buy in can be disputed for the young generation too...only from my anecdotal observation of the youth I see flying today's stuff...
$2000 + helicopters,
 $6000 + 3D Edge 300s,
$600~900 electric motors
and another $1000 in batteries AND CHARGERS

A $375 Nelson N36c and a few gallons of fuel and the propellers are chicken feed in a lot of today hobby circles...
Just an opinion

OK I admit
 back in the 60s some of the high zoot stuff was way out of the question for us teenage weekend warriors---

BUT the Nats guys always seemed to have a benefactor...
I highly doubt Marvin Denny, Riley Wooten, or Carl Berryman ever (assumed) PAID for the the dozens of engines that blew up ---eeking out the most power they could...experimenting....this is an assumption---
I guess way back then, Riley may actually have bought every Johnson motor he destroyed...dunno...I will ask him this year that the James Mears Memorial Combat bash when I visit

I personally think saying something Like Nelson N36 engines KILLED FAST combat is like Saying Randy Smith or RoJet Piped engines killed Stunt...   BULL crap!

Already Pointed out that a N36c is not expensive compared to alternatives
Acknowledge elsewhere that speed and durability can be controlled by prop and fuel selection
Not much mention here, of the equally hard to find FORA .36 Nelson clone at half price

BUT because many here will read this--- as just another wanna be butt head pontificating

I think the death of FAST combat...the MOST ADRENALIN you can pack into 5 minuets... is LACK of guys like Bobby Mears,  Jeff Rein, or John Brodak....or GSCB type clubs.... WILLING to do the grand challenge of a logistical nightmare and dangerous Control line FAST COMBAT event

Hell guys, we still have jazzed competitors who will to travel 1000s of miles to compete in the dwindling series of Fast events....

I well remember the Magazines (1980s) ads for Bladder Grabber with $10,000 prizes and over 75 entrants

I bet this dynamic can be replicated today properly sponsored and advertised

Not sorry if this suX--- but IMO ----Henrys  N36c did NOT kill FAST combat...we did
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Bob Mears

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2017, 02:03:10 PM »
Time killed Fast. And not just fast. Kids just are not interested in model airplanes anymore. There's nobody new flying rat race, speed, carrier,or combat. Just a handful of kids that their folks are still flying. I grew up with my Dad showing me the ropes with model airplanes, but I flew with some kids that their folks had zero interest, but those kids managed to succeed with it anyway. And now you go into a hobby shop, if your lucky enough to even have one, and all they sell is drones and helicopters. If somebody wanted to get into combat today, there's nobody to help unless they find a combat pilot. Even then I dont think they're interested. I owned an indoor RC car track about 15 years ago and sold some airplane stuff too. I had a RTF combat plane with motor and starting kit on the wall for two years for $99.00 and free lessons with it. I was just trying to get any interest. Never got any interest.  I have a flyer at the boy scout office to all troop leaders that I will offer everything to train any troop. Totally free. I supply everything. Nothing. One troop leader was interested and I got all excited. They do get an aviation badge btw and this would get it for them. When I called to get everything set up, he told me that he found out all they had to do was to go to the glider museum here in town and they could get the badge, so they did that instead. I dont guess they can see the difference in a day at the park with their buddies, and troop leader learning about airplanes and actually flying them and having fun vs. an hour at the museum. Their troop leaders are failing them in my opinion. Anyway, model airplanes just aren't cool anymore I guess is the problem.
Home of the control line combat museum.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2017, 03:51:55 PM »
Time killed Fast. And not just fast. Kids just are not interested in model airplanes anymore. There's nobody new flying rat race, speed, carrier,or combat. Just a handful of kids that their folks are still flying. I grew up with my Dad showing me the ropes with model airplanes, but I flew with some kids that their folks had zero interest, but those kids managed to succeed with it anyway. And now you go into a hobby shop, if your lucky enough to even have one, and all they sell is drones and helicopters. If somebody wanted to get into combat today, there's nobody to help unless they find a combat pilot. Even then I dont think they're interested. I owned an indoor RC car track about 15 years ago and sold some airplane stuff too. I had a RTF combat plane with motor and starting kit on the wall for two years for $99.00 and free lessons with it. I was just trying to get any interest. Never got any interest.  I have a flyer at the boy scout office to all troop leaders that I will offer everything to train any troop. Totally free. I supply everything. Nothing. One troop leader was interested and I got all excited. They do get an aviation badge btw and this would get it for them. When I called to get everything set up, he told me that he found out all they had to do was to go to the glider museum here in town and they could get the badge, so they did that instead. I dont guess they can see the difference in a day at the park with their buddies, and troop leader learning about airplanes and actually flying them and having fun vs. an hour at the museum. Their troop leaders are failing them in my opinion. Anyway, model airplanes just aren't cool anymore I guess is the problem.

See,  and you guys laughed at me for driving 900 miles to get my ass handed to me in my first event..... lol
It is difficult to get started in combat with no direction and no one near doing the same thing. I guess I'm lucky to be able to travel

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2017, 05:29:18 PM »

Absolutely Pat.

Once I figured out which end was up, I could pretty much count on going through several rounds -  against good competition - with one airplane in the late '50s, '60s and '70s.

When the Nelsons became commonplace, what I saw was (1) Big, big dollars to compete (teens typically have great reactions and learn quickly, but how many could afford Nelsons?), and (2) Wholesale destruction of airplanes because too many (dare I say most?) competing couldn't possibly handle the speeds.

For me, it became a non-event.




With all due respect: Thank goodness we're all built a little differently.  Perhaps I didn't clarify that I'm speaking for myself.  That others have continued to enjoy Fast in the Nelson era is great!

Two things that have always been a "big deal" to me: Team and Mentoring.

I learned about serious competition as a high school wrestler, part of a state championship Team.  If you think about it, Combat is so much like wrestling it's crazy:

-   One on One
-   Time limit; most points at the end wins
-   "Sudden death' - you can be behind by a dozen points, yet win with a kill (pin)
-   Confinement to a circle

I most enjoyed combat as part of a team.  I won a lot of contests Thanks to 1-flip starts and dead-on engine settings by teammates.  My teammates and I were asked by several competitors at Nats circles in the '70s to set their Fox engines.  Our offer was this:  grab the handle, shut your mouth, and be ready for the launch; we don't give a tinker's damn what you think of the starting procedure or setting, cuz we'll ignore you anyway.

Jordan Segal - who I believe is currently a MACA officer - was one of our happiest "customers".

But the proudest moment for me dates to a contest in the '70s here: only 17 entries, but at least 4 of us had finished in the top 4 at the Nats.  I believe 3 were in the MACA Top 20 at the time.  I finished 1st, my teammates 2nd and 3rd.

We also won Goodyear, beating some very good teams and the Speed Column writer from Chicago (Glenn Lee?).

Believe me, I don't even remember several of the other contests I won.  Not a single match.  The camaraderie, practice sessions (frequent!) and just general bull sessions we had were the best part!

I also enjoyed mentoring "kids".  One selfish reason: I was always looking for a Junior or Senior to team with.  In a number of contests, I won the Open age group while my younger teammate won Junior/Senior.

But regardless of their specific interests or flying ability, I just enjoyed working with young men who shared my interest.  My house resembled a drop-in center for boys on summer weekends, and I've watched some of those kids become aero engineers, an FAA Traffic Controller, and a Marine Corps Pilot.  Two others tragically died in training accidents early in their military careers.

None of their fathers showed any interest in aviation.  Do you think they would cheerfully buy the boys a couple of Nelsons?

I would much prefer to fly combat against an accomplished flyer than against a rookie - or someone who simply couldn’t handle the speed they had.  My approach against that flyer in contests was simply “get up first, get a cut, and then avoid them at all costs”.

What I saw here in the “Day of the Nelson” was too many - dare I say it, unskilled? - flyers shelling out money to go way too fast, and destroying dozens of airplanes at every contest.

Remember: I built my own airplanes, didn’t buy them, and was sometimes asked “Are you really gonna fly that one in combat?”.

So I’m the guy who became unwilling to build dozens of planes only to fly in a Destruction Derby”.

:):):)

PS: I've known Phil Cartier - a great guy, incidentally - since he was a teenager, and we've flown against each other a few times.  I even offered to teach the young'un about combat many years ago; today, it would definitely need to be the other way around!
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Preston Briggs

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2017, 02:32:20 PM »
Henry sold me three 2014 N36c versions with ceramic bearings  ( I think the rear one)

I bet Dane, as well as I, would like to know Phil's or any other folks thoughts about the life expectancy of ceramic vs Henry's standard bearing

Academic for me, as taking what Phil said above, and my one or two flights a year on the remaining engine I kept, should mean that the engine and bearing will outlive me as long as I keep it from gumming or rusting

Side question:
There used to be a web page on combat,

At this link----  http://www.clcombat.info/index.html

Lots of great stuff about....the people, air-frames, engines, and a lot of other good info that is lost

Within the engines pages was a Nelson on Nelsons where Henry writes about setting up and feeding the engine...setting up talked about compression and head shims vs Nitro and feeding was his recommended fuel mix

I wish I had copied and saved the article on my computer

Does anyone have a copy of that "Nelson on Nelson's" article to share?

Here you go: https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20110831130510/http://www.clcombat.info:80/henrysez.html

Preston

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2017, 05:02:44 PM »
outstanding to see Preston'e site back again. It contains a wealth of information and some pretty cool pictures as well

Offline Preston Briggs

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Re: fast Combat
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2017, 05:29:12 PM »
Well, it's not really back.
It's just preserve in the Internet Wayback Machine.


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