Author Topic: A question of rules (Read 10333 times)

BYU · « **on:** February 15, 2016, 11:41:09 AM »

This is a open question from a “potential” newbie Classic contestant.. I am building 3 classic planes this season (2 will likely be finished in time to compete) and I know there is some flexibility on build methods but not sure how far this flexibility extends. A few builders seem ok with substituting a built up wing where the original drawings of the design (or kit) was sheeted foam. Is the reverse acceptable also? i.e. sheeted foam wing in place of built up wing? Any experienced / constructive advice welcome (pun intended).

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** February 15, 2016, 12:03:33 PM »

If you don't trophy, it don't matter.

If you trophy, and no one complains, it doesn't matter.

It probably varies by CD, but I think it was common enough in the classic era for people to make such changes that you'll get by just fine.

BYU · « **Reply #2 on:** February 15, 2016, 12:12:49 PM »

Thanks Tim, I am flying because I like to, and not to win.

It is likely I will only be in the top 10 if 9 others are competing (and that puts me in the top 95% of the field).

Jim Svitko · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2016, 01:43:11 PM »

If you want it to "look Classic" (i.e. look like an all-wood wing) yet you want to do it faster with foam, then you can use the partially sheeted foam wing method. You can sheet the leading edge, center section, and trailing edge, add capstrips to give the illusion of ribs, then cover with whatever material you like.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2016, 01:44:14 PM »

No help with the question...just curious why someone get cutsie with their location... not big deal ...Just that I lived all over the USA and overseas and always am curious about where folks are and sometimes this relates to what ever their question is

I lived in the Oakland bay area for a bit and had good friends in Sausalito, Mill valley, and Tiburon plus I used to mess around on Mt Tamalpais a lot

Jest sayin...has zero bearing on this question

a zip code works but make me look it up

Same with Tim the lat long works but forces me to do extra work....except I know his musings from Flying lines

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2016, 02:36:06 PM »

Quote from: Fredvon4 on February 15, 2016, 01:44:14 PM

Same with Tim the lat long works but forces me to do extra work....except I know his musings from Flying lines

OTOH, if you have a nice accurate smart bomb you can put it down about 10 feet from where I'm sitting at the moment. Granted, with perfect accuracy you'll take out my wife's stained glass workbench first, but I'll still be affected.

I live in Redland, OR, which won't show in the post office's data base. The address is Oregon City, which no one outside of Oregon knows. I'm about 17 miles from Portland, The City that Wanks (the official motto is "The City that Works", but -- Portland). So there's really not a good place to put a name to. So -- you have my map coordinates, you can reach me.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2016, 02:45:24 PM »

That is cool Tim... like I said you are easy in that I never had to look up where the lat long was as I followed a lot of your musings over the years and knew you were in the PNW an area of my genetic/family origin

Knowing I could lob a Smart bomb into your living room is just too cool except I don't have the cash for such antics...perhaps WDC is a better expenditure of good ordnance...OH well one can fantasize I guess

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2016, 03:02:27 PM »

Quote from: Bobs your Uncle on February 15, 2016, 11:41:09 AM

This is a open question from a “potential” newbie Classic contestant.. I am building 3 classic planes this season (2 will likely be finished in time to compete) and I know there is some flexibility on build methods but not sure how far this flexibility extends. A few builders seem ok with substituting a built up wing where the original drawings of the design (or kit) was sheeted foam. Is the reverse acceptable also? i.e. sheeted foam wing in place of built up wing? Any experienced / constructive advice welcome (pun intended).

Technically,to conform I believe it needs to look the same from the exterior,,, at least the spirit of the rules indicates such,,
however,m some latitude is allowed to enhance entries,, and interest,,
MY perspective is to insure that when looking at the finished model, alterations are not visibly noticable

BYU · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2016, 04:55:47 PM »

Quote from: Fredvon4 on February 15, 2016, 01:44:14 PM

No help with the question...just curious why someone get cutsie with their location... not big deal ...Just that I lived all over the USA and overseas and always am curious about where folks are and sometimes this relates to what ever their question is

I lived in the Oakland bay area for a bit and had good friends in Sausalito, Mill valley, and Tiburon plus I used to mess around on Mt Tamalpais a lot

Jest sayin...has zero bearing on this question

a zip code works but make me look it up

Same with Tim the lat long works but forces me to do extra work....except I know his musings from Flying lines

I misguidedly thought a Zip code was more succinct, but have removed the "cutsie" aspect and put in the City, hope that helps. Kinda Like Tims "Location: 122.4767W, 45.3116N" Very cool

BYU · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2016, 05:05:14 PM »

A big thank you all, for all of your advice. I will work on the finished models outwardly looking as close to the originals as possible.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2016, 12:12:03 PM »

Without going to the rules and getting the exact wording, I believe you can use any type construction you want as long as you can't see it. I've done foam wings that looked built up and also done built up wings with solid sheeting. But , do what you want to do and have fun doing it.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2016, 09:01:30 PM »

The Doc is correct. Build the plane with whatever materials you wish. As long as the outward appearance, airfoils, wingspan, ect remain unchanged from the original design, you're good to go.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2016, 11:48:53 AM »

This was an area of concern on the Bill Simon's Shoestring I'm working on. It's built from Flying Models plans with modifications to make it more accurately fit the model that Bill actually built. But I made a change to the canopy (just pushed the rear like of the canopy back to look more like a real Shoestring). The outline is the same as the plans. Not sure if that will cause a problem, but the shape is the same. I also converted it to electric. I'm sure that will cause to heads to shake. But it is a Bill Simons Shoestring so I suppose I'll just have to see how folks at VSC react.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2016, 12:59:19 AM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on February 17, 2016, 11:48:53 AM

I also converted it to electric. I'm sure that will cause to heads to shake. But it is a Bill Simons Shoestring so I suppose I'll just have to see how folks at VSC react.

Electric classic model? Oh no no no. Not in this lifetime, buddy. I'm protesting it already.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2016, 10:06:18 AM »

Electrics have been used at past VSC's and the NATS. It's the diehards that get up set. Besides VSC is a family get together I will miss again.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2016, 02:01:36 PM »

Clint,

If everyone were using period engines and planes then I could see an argument. But There are plenty of PA 40ULs and Aerotiger 36s. They aren't exactly in the spirit either. So I went with electric. I suppose some will whine and if they do, oh well. I'll still have fun.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2016, 03:01:05 PM »

Bob's your uncle

I was just pontificating and did not really mean to cause you, also, additional grief to change your profile

I was just being a smart ass* and left handed way to say I am familiar with were you are

* smart ass----someone who is stalled on a build, or not flying, and has too much time to peruse the web in search of quick entertainment

I bet, from the posts I see, that there are a lot like me.....

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2016, 03:04:19 PM »

Quote from: Fredvon4 on February 18, 2016, 03:01:05 PM

* smart ass----someone who is stalled on a build, or not flying, and has too much time to peruse the web in search of quick entertainment

Well, get to work! I just re-started a build that I had last worked on in May of last year, but I have the dual excuse of work, and a spouse who decided (apparently seriously) that she was going to learn CL and needed a steady stream of aircraft to demolish in search of proficiency.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #18 on:** February 18, 2016, 04:55:36 PM »

Tim (as I drag the thread even further from the point), you didn't restart the infamous Legacy, did you?

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2016, 05:04:11 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on February 18, 2016, 04:55:36 PM

Tim (as I drag the thread even further from the point), you didn't restart the infamous Legacy, did you?

It will only ever be infamous if I beat Paul with it. Otherwise it'll just be some local plane flown by an Expert-wannabe.

And for the record, it's not Classic-eligible.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2016, 10:51:29 AM »

You are competing with Howard for length of build.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2016, 12:47:17 PM »

As Daniel Dirt pointed out, there is nothing in the CLASSIC rules that gives the ED/CD any authority to disqualify any period correct model from competing in Classic events. Look it up in the rules. Should be on the PAMPA website, someplace. OTS is much more restrictive.

Steve

Jim Hoffman · « **Reply #22 on:** April 07, 2016, 09:24:57 AM »

In reference to the original question asked, here are the Classic rules – attached

Note para 4.0 – Material and Modifications - It allows internal construction changes, also permits appearance points down grade for things like use of a foam wing to replace the original I-beam wing.

Note para 5.0 – Fidelity points –Applied per the CD’s discretion. I don’t recall ever seeing this used.

Mike Haverly · « **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2016, 10:32:43 AM »

Fidelity points have been used at least a couple of times that I know of in the PNW. It is a pain in the butt to implement.

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2016, 11:27:24 AM »

Hey Uncle Bob - What is the model you are proposing to sully with non-original construction techniques? I need to know so I can get my protest paperwork together in time.

BYU · « **Reply #25 on:** April 17, 2016, 11:45:23 AM »

Quote from: Mike Scholtes on April 10, 2016, 11:27:24 AM

Hey Uncle Bob - What is the model you are proposing to sully with non-original construction techniques? I need to know so I can get my protest paperwork together in time.

Not telling…. Na na, na

RandySmith · « **Reply #26 on:** April 17, 2016, 01:02:32 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on February 18, 2016, 02:01:36 PM

Clint,

If everyone were using period engines and planes then I could see an argument. But There are plenty of PA 40ULs and Aerotiger 36s. They aren't exactly in the spirit either. So I went with electric. I suppose some will whine and if they do, oh well. I'll still have fun.

Since you only specified the PA and Aero Tiger.. i will say this .. there is ZERO differnece between them and LA engines, magnum, Super Tiger 51 and 34 and Jett stuff also, 2 star and many other, as they are all modern engines, you can throw in Enya new ones too. However all these engines are IC engines , and not powered from controlled electric componemts
So the arguement about PA engines vs electric in Classic is not valid.
PA engines are IC and very much in the "Spirit" of the event

regards
Randy

RandySmith · « **Reply #27 on:** April 17, 2016, 01:04:33 PM »

Quote from: Bobs your Uncle on February 15, 2016, 11:41:09 AM

This is a open question from a “potential” newbie Classic contestant.. I am building 3 classic planes this season (2 will likely be finished in time to compete) and I know there is some flexibility on build methods but not sure how far this flexibility extends. A few builders seem ok with substituting a built up wing where the original drawings of the design (or kit) was sheeted foam. Is the reverse acceptable also? i.e. sheeted foam wing in place of built up wing? Any experienced / constructive advice welcome (pun intended).

There is NO problem with using foam or ribs, it is OK to use either, and within the rules. everywhere. So use what you want

Randy

BYU · « **Reply #28 on:** May 01, 2016, 05:21:50 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on April 17, 2016, 01:04:33 PM

There is NO problem with using foam or ribs, it is OK to use either, and within the rules. everywhere. So use what you want

Randy

Thanks for the reassurance Randy.