News:



  • March 28, 2024, 07:02:58 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Unoficial Carrier Poll  (Read 5325 times)

Offline JoeJust

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1553
Unoficial Carrier Poll
« on: May 11, 2017, 07:09:33 PM »
  Here is a new poll. Some thought has been given to the idea of Combining "Sportsman",  "SkyRay"  and NW.40 Profile into one grouping under the name "Sportsman Profile Carrier".  This combining would allow NW .40 and Sky Ray planes to fly against the typical Sportsman flying that is now taking place around the country. AS it stands now, the NW .40 type planes are scoring slightly below the typical profile planes now competing.

Please give your opinions now for the suggestion to be brought up at the NCS meeting in Muncie this year.  This voting is not yet sanctioned by the NCS.  This is only a "opinion" Poll.

Thanks and here is my vote............Yes, with entry limitations to be dealt with after positive voting.

Joe
PS The NEW NCS is starting to look much better with the new officers.
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Paul Smith

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5793
Re: Unofficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2017, 06:29:39 AM »
NW 40 allows only one engine, the OS FP40, correct?

So if you combine it with other events you blow the whole single engine concept.  A Skyray could compete in NW 40 if powered by the approved engine.

Skyray was a Sig Contest special to appease the host.  I never built one and never will.  If I entered their contest I would probably have built one then quit when they let electrics in.

I'm not sure what your definition of "sportsman" is.  At the Brodak it's simply AMA Rule Book Profile Carrier open to those who call themselves sportsmen. 

NW 40 is a good thing. Leave it alone.
Paul Smith

Offline Paul Smith

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5793
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2017, 06:35:47 AM »
If you want to combine something, combine Classes I & II into simply "Scale" class.

In the beginning that's the way it was and everybody used 60's & 61's.  When the great ST G21/40RC came out they created Class I to use the ST40 and give us some relief from the 60's.

Now engines have evolved to where the Class I is 40 and Class II is 46.  The 60/65's are so over-the-top nobody wants them and even 46's are killers.

There could be a schedule of line sizes that allows safe lines for heavy and light models based on weight.
Paul Smith

Offline Peter Mazur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2017, 07:44:47 AM »
I would not recommend combining these unofficial events in any formal way. Since they are unofficial they may, of course, easily be combined in any combination at local contests to see how that works out. My greatest concern is that this would mess up Sportsman, having Sportsman contestants compete against the most experienced and determined contestants. The purpose of Sportsman is to have that group of competitors able to compete against their peers without having to face people like Burt Brokow, Eric Conley and me. The difference in models allowed, full-fledged profile models for Sportsman versus restricted models for Skyray and NW Sport .40, is not nearly enough to offset the difference in competitors' experience and/or attitude. Indeed, many Sportsmen are flying Skyrays or Sport .40 qualified setups, so they have no equipment advantage, either.
Pete

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 10:58:02 AM »
On that point, I will offer the opportunity for NW40 and Skyray Carrier legal planes to be entered in Sportsman Profile at both of the meets being held in Dayton. Please note that the governing philosophy of Sportsman Profile will not change. The following is quoted from the NCS web site rules page.

"Unofficial Navy Carrier Rules

All appropriate AMA safety rules apply to these events

Sportsman Profile Carrier:

Same rules as Profile Carrier. This class is intended for "Sportsman", entrants who do not wish to
compete in the "Open" Profile Carrier Class. The event director reserves the right to promote an
entrant to the "Open" profile carrier class based on performance. No person may enter both Profile
and Sportsman, however Sportsman entrants may also enter Class I and II."


Of course, if an experienced competitor wants to fly a Skyray or NW40 for fame & glory we'll do that too.

We'll see if this encourages wider participation. The whole idea is to enjoy the excitement of Navy Carrier and have FUN!
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 11:31:03 AM »
I probably shouldn't have a say in this as I usually fly sportsman class when offered.  I do not hang a plane while flying carrier.   I say leave the events as is and let local event directors say how they will be flown. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline john vlna

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 12:33:57 PM »
They are all unofficial events so I would leave them alone. Local contests can modify their rules as they see fit.

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2017, 01:34:16 PM »
Totally unsolicited observation at has absolutely zero bearing on this Opinion Poll

As a teen age kid ...Dad in the Nam and near Alemeda Navel Air station in the greater Oakland CA bay area, I had my mom schlep me all over the place to model airplane events 1969~1973

I watched a lot of different modeling events and was always fascinated by three things...combat, Nay Carrier, and RC...sorry but I thought Stunt was boring (at the time)

Years later, as Army Soldier, I found myself near a NATs in Virginia...I think Cheetum Anex Navy air Base but that is subject to error...I do Know it was out near Virginia Beach on a unused Navy airfield..based on my assignment time it had to be 1987~1990

Again I was drawn to Combat, Carrier and this time RC JETs...still found Stunt and RC pattern boring

Point of this note...around age 55 I came back ( a retread) to model aircraft and started with RC ...I sucked ....and it was not as fun as what I thought I remembered (observing)...Got deep into CL Combat only to find the technology and engines are too fast for my mind, eye, body, reflexes (very abused body)

I Remember how cool Navy carrier was so went in search of how to get started..... watched about 30 Y-tube videos and was totally turned off by the endless time and boring SLOW HANGING Laps....much too reminiscent to me  observing RC 3D super unrealistic flight envelop antics of many of the $8000 electric 3D planes local club members were gravitating to...

BUT hey you gotts to understand my Psyche.... a RC HELICOPTER doing things that NO real World Rotary wing craft (with Human Pilot) can do--- Is just not realistic or interesting to ME

The opinion.... the efforts you all go to to HANG an other wise cool Navy Carrier model...turned me off

I would much rather the event was competed as realistically to true....including bad WX complicated landing extremes on to a carrier deck

What I envision as easy to set up....

Fair Seas landing
50 Knot head wind landing
25~35 Knot cross wind landing

The fans to do this are commercially found on 1000s of movie sets

IN MY 62 years of being associate with ALL things MILITARY (REAL WORLD) aviation...I have NEVER SEEN ONE fixed wing aircraft HUNG ON THE Prop and maneuvered...ever

I have seen, at Ramstein AFB Air shows, Military Jets thrust walked down the flight line at near 90 degree AoA.... (tail walking) and sudden Max performance climb to altitude out of sight

NOW if you want realistic with the hyper slow (BORING) laps... design Vectored Thrust Harriers  or V22 Ospreys and go for it

BTW
I was on the USS Roosevelt for it's second Sea trail out of New Port News when they flew the fighter wing into service... so I got to see landing on a carrier of 7 Giant assed F-18s in real world as well as several E-2Cs ... the tour guide had all of us family members on a elevator that was raised just high enough for us to see the flight deck near the arresting cable area on the starboard side of the carrier..... very exhilarating episode of my life

 BTW2
As a Army Helicopter guy, I was super jazzed to watch the navy's giant assed MH-53E work the deck and actually bummed a ride in one back to Norfolk Naval Air station

I am going to assume a LOT of the Carrier guys are former Navy so I want to acknowledge that I spent much more time in the Petty Officers club at Norfolk than our own NCO cub on Ft Eustice VA.... I have done a few TDY events to Navy installations like Corpus Christy TX and know for a fact Navy clubs and Chow is much superior to Army digs



"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2017, 04:30:16 PM »
I probably shouldn't have a say in this as I usually fly sportsman class when offered.  I do not hang a plane while flying carrier.   I say leave the events as is and let local event directors say how they will be flown. D>K

John,

Come to Dayton. You will be able to fly Navy Carrier as you wish to your heart's content. It would be a fun time.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline JoeJust

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1553
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2017, 05:29:44 PM »
Peter Mazur link=topic=46627.. The purpose of Sportsman is to have that group of competitors able to compete against their peers without having to face people like Burt Brokow, Eric Conley and me. [/quote]

Pete, the point of adding NW n.40 to Sortsman is because we already have that problem in our major CL meet here in the NW, I suppose adding The notation to sportsman that "anyone flying AMA profile should seriously consider sticking with AMA PROFILE INSTEAD OF ENTERING Sportsman."

NW .40 profile allows the OS .35 MaxFP to be legal as well as The Tower .40.  This event here in he NW is competitive within the groups hat have tried it. There is no reason to try it out locally, it has been tried and proved for the past 5 years.  By adding NW .40 to the top 20 under the "Sportsman" grouping would at least give us guys a chance to make the top 20 in something. Guys running more competitive engines like I have seen and flown at Brodak's will score higher. So what!  Whe need an intro class for the folks we will be trying to adopt.  We already accept you and Burt and Eric as champions.  Give the rest of us a chance to spread our fun to others
I still vote yes.
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Bob Heywood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 999
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2017, 06:32:13 AM »
As I understand this proposal, what it really boils down to is allowing Profile Carrier models powered by a couple of spec .40 size engines to compete along side AMA Profile models in the Sportsman Division. Since 2011 participation in Sportsman, as indicated by the annual NCS Top Twenty rankings, has dwindled by half or more. Given that, I don't understand why there would be any objection to a small change that has the potential to boost participation. We need to be encouraging activity. Doing nothing is no longer an option.

"FLY NAVY CARRIER"
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline eric david conley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2017, 08:29:04 AM »
     If these 3 events are combined under Sportsman, when the results are posted in the Hi Low news letter it should be noted whether the carrier plane was a NWS40, Sportsman, or Skyray. That way the flyer's could tell how they did overall as well as how they did in their individual event. By all means try it in any contests from now forward and lets see how it goes.
Eric

Offline JoeJust

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1553
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2017, 09:02:57 AM »
Eric, A great Idea! Thank for your input!
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Peter Mazur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2017, 10:47:59 AM »
I may not understand the proposal properly. I understood that the three events would simply be combined, which means that Sportsman contestants with profile, Skyray, or Sport-.40 eligible models would compete against open contestants with Skyray or Sport-.40 eligible models. But further discussion seems to suggest that this new combined event would be available to Sportsman contestants only and they may use profile, Skyray or Sport-.40 models. Open contestants would not be able to enter this new combined event. Please clarify which option we are discussing here. From the reading of some of the other letters, perhaps I am not the only one unsure of just what is being proposed.  Also, if this is to become a Sportsman-contestant only event, should Skyray and Sport-.40 continue to exist separately as open events?
Pete

Offline john vlna

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2017, 11:35:32 AM »
I personally would not like to see Skyray, or any other event(s) combined into a Sportsman pilot only event. Running the events together is always a local option, but it seems to me they are all quit different. 
john v

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2017, 11:43:41 AM »
I still remember the days when there was only Navy Carrier.  Then it was changed to two classes in which I stayed with the 60 size planes and did not fly 40 size.  Then Profile started as an event to attract new people and also to be simple.   While I was of playing with F2C competition, it was changed so a person could fly all three classes when before it was you flew scale carrier(Class I and II) or profile.   We always had good entries up to that point at our contests.   But, if there is going to be a sportsman class, P40 or Skyray keep it at that and let the scale guys stay with their planes.    D>K

But, I've seen results where a person flies both scale classes and also flies sportsman profile.  Same with the P40 class.  But, I guess it is up to the person that likes to collect trophies.  My self I don't practice enough as back in the day it came natural to me with that big McCoy Redhead 60 and kit stock Sterling Gaurdian. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline eric david conley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2017, 01:28:18 PM »
     John, I didn't mean it the way I said it (?). My simple mind is well engaged and I mint that the 3 events could be run together and 2 things could be taken away. #1 the guy that came in first would be first and so on down through 3rd or 4th. In some contest that would mean a sure win for the Skyray guys and all the other guys would be some where down the list. The type of plane the entrant flew would be after his name on the score sheet. That way the people that entered could tell how they did compared to the other entrants in the own class. Oh sh-t I think I'm digging a deeper hole for myself maybe. I guess the trophy thing could get real screwy for the entrants because it really is 3 different events. Geeez. Maybe Joe will come back on and share how the awards would be distributed.
Eric

Offline JoeJust

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1553
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2017, 03:40:15 PM »
OK, here is ONE answer.  Drop Skyray as it now is because it is only flown in limited areas.  Make the Skyray eligible for NW .40 by limiting the engines the same as NW 40 (that is OS FP 35 or 40) The planes themselves are already using .40's and the conversion would be simple what with the B Bazillion of FP's now on EBay.  Keep Sportsman as is and in the listing a simple * would indicate it is not a NW .40. Follow the simple rules for NW 40 for the rest of he entries.  What you would have then is one listing only. More than likely using an engine other than the FP's would give you a better score, but not always.  Limit entry in the new "Sportsman" event should be limited to those that do not enter any other AMA Carrier event.  That keeps the experts out of the "Having Fun" group.  There is one other way. set a number, say 250 and all Scoring higher would be in the "expert Sportsman" grouping and any under 250 (which will be guys that are just stating or just having fun would then be listed in a grouping under a yet to be designated name.   Sure cuts down the number of prizes needed, but I seriously doubt that the "Having Fun" group really doesn't care or give a  hoot.

The whole idea is a place for new guys to get started or to just have a fun event to fly while waiting around waiting to fly their regular stuff. Please vote YES, the details can be worked on s we go on.  Please limit any other ideas until we have either killedthe idea or passed a go ahead.  Then input will be seen and possible amendments can be put in or eliminated.   I havn't  analized this thread so far,but it looks like the Yes vote is slightly ahead.  Make your vote known!
Joe
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Peter Mazur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2017, 05:10:43 PM »
OK, I think I understand the idea a little better. We would eliminate Skyray and NW .40 for open contestants and allow those airplanes in Sportsman. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler just to allow .40's in Sportsman? Local contests can already do that and I bet the Top 20 would not care if the Sportsman used a .35 or a .40. That way Sportsmen can fly their Skyrays and their NW-40s in Sportsman and again in open Skyray and open NW40, and the open fliers would not lose any of the events they now fly. If Skyray or NW40 become popular enough with Sportsmen, then separate Sportsman classes of these events can be held on a local basis. So I am afraid I still see no reason to take action combining Sportsman, Skyray and NW40.
Pete

Offline JoeJust

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1553
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2017, 05:43:09 PM »
SkyRay competition is dead or dying. RIP!  The only reason to keep it in any place is because by switching to a FP 35 or 40 they would be eligible to fly in those NW sport rules. Existing Sportsman planes would also be allowed to fly in this event as well. Keeping this new Sportsman event for newbies, or those that don't give a rat's patoot for full bore Carrier competition.  All this poll is for is to give a chance for its being voted on by the WHOLE NCS Membership after the NATS. A simple * in the top 20 would show if he  listing was for NW 40 or other profile ships entered by the
guys and gals that are not in the least interested in pushing the envelope.
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline david smith

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2017, 05:55:18 PM »
My vote.....No.

Offline john vlna

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2017, 06:28:39 PM »
Does anyone fly NW 40 other than the NW area?
Also since Skyray or NW 40 , with 6cc engines can fly in Sportsman, why can't a Sportsman plane or Skyray with appropriate engine fly in NW 40.

Offline Mike Anderson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 945
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2017, 06:43:10 PM »
I don't think that a plane with a .40 can fly in Sportsman - at least the way the Sportsman rules are written (unless modified by the CD of any local contest).
I thought that was the issue that this proposal was meant to fix.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline JoeJust

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1553
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2017, 07:08:33 PM »
Well, as I read it the poll is tied1 t 1.  As an aside, in a PM I have been asked why I am pushing this idea so hard.  Well, to be honest NW 40 and NW15 are the only two Carrier events that are entered up this a way.  There are exceptions of course, but without these two events there is simply no reason to have our scores made public.  Mike Potter really came up with a winning even with NW 40. It is the ideal beginner's event and the super event for having Fun. On top of hat, here really right now is not much interest in joining the NCS, and that is too bad. Simply trying to get NW 40 into the top 20 listing is not of interest here.  The thinking is that Navy Carrier already has too many events for such a low membership right now would not be warranted.  Finding a logical place for it exists.  Anyway, VOTE!  The poll ends on the end of May.
Joe
  (sometimes known as Giuseppe, sometimes too well known)
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline john vlna

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2017, 07:20:11 PM »
To be clear I vote NO to combine events
John Vlna

Offline eric david conley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2017, 08:47:58 PM »
     I would have to vote NO also after reading the posts following my post. There may be only a few guys flying Skyray but it is hotly contested amongst those few and has been for quite some time. Like Joe I would like to see the NWS40 have a top 20 list. There are 13 different events that have a spot in the top 20 lists, a bit to much I would think. I don't have one of the top 20 lists for 2016 so don't know how busy the different events are.
Eric

Offline Peter Mazur

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2017, 09:12:49 PM »
I don't have a problem with listing NW40 in its own Top 20 category since there are some real fans of that event. Skyray is dead in some places, but still alive and, indeed, hotly contested in others. Let's not mess with these events. So I would vote "No" on the proposal to combine events.
Pete

Offline john vlna

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2017, 09:20:01 PM »
I agree, I see no problem with NW 40 in the top 20.

Offline Wayne J. Buran

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1096
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2017, 04:23:02 AM »
I vote no on this current proposal.
Wayne Buran
Wayne Buran
Medina, Ohio
AMA 14986 CD
USAF Veteran 35 TAC GP/ 6236 CSG, DonMuang RTAFB, Bangkok, Thailand 65-66 North Coast Controliners   "A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well!

Offline Mike Anderson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 945
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2017, 08:10:39 AM »
I would also vote No on combining the events, as proposed.
Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline JoeJust

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1553
Re: Unoficial Carrier Poll
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2017, 09:34:25 AM »
OK, looks like the poll says NO.  Thanks for your input.    Personally I hope we don't add yet another unofficial event to our top 20 listing. The proponents wanted to keep the top 20 by adding NW .40 under Sportsman and dropping Skyray.  Not going to happen.  With that I will have a job getting 6 or 7 o more interested and competing Carrier folks here people to join NCS, but I will ty. No sense leaving the poll open either.
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place


Advertise Here

Sorry, this topic is locked. Only admins and moderators can reply.
Tags:
 


Advertise Here