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Author Topic: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's  (Read 9125 times)

Offline Louis Matts

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Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« on: February 08, 2016, 03:04:03 PM »
While in college and always a fan of CL, my good friend Doug and I attended the Nat's as spectators. It was awesome seeing all the names & meeting all the greats like Bill Melton, Pete Mazur, Mark W. Bill B, Carlos Aloise. Watching Carlos fly almost 6 minute slow speed in 91 was one detail I have never forgotten.

We went home and built 2 PC's. During classes and as time permitted Doug and I tried to emulate the greats. Never happened, practice-practice-practice and we could not fly 4 let alone 6 minute slow speeds. Everyone told us practice as much as possible, we did, our plane designs lacked a lot to say the least. College got in the way, and the dreams of flying PC went on the shelf.

Add college, wife, 3 kids, career and 25 years later the carrier bug is still in me.

I have a few questions for todays pro's like Pete, Eric, Burt, Bill and anyone else that would like to comment:

I see a few PC's have the 3 line bell crank behind the CG and on the outer wing, why not right on the CG?
What is the typical wing area of todays PC's?
What is the wing length?
Wing thickness?
What is the engine of choice for PC?
Left handed or right crankshaft?
Can a PC have the wing in the center of the fuselage if the original plane it is patterned after was a low wing design?
Are any plans or pictures available for the top PC designs?
Typical weight of PC's?

Fast forward to 2016 now having the time, resources and energy. My goal is to build a competitive PC to compete with todays pro's. I know that is a very tall and likely not realistic goal. I do set my goals high and work towards achieving the most I can, when I fail it is not from lack of trying. With all your help, lets see what can be accomplished.

LM



 

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2016, 03:57:18 PM »
Here is a really good carrier site.  It is British but full of great information and has a US section.  Eric Conley is one of the contributors. 
http://carrier-deck.com/

Another good one is flyinglines.org   It is a Northwest based site with a good carrier section, also frequented by good US carrier fliers.
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2016, 03:58:20 PM »
The winners use Nelson 36's with left hand cranks that were built circa 1984.  Good luck getting one.  Winning low speed REQUIRES left hand rotation.  If you want to just participate, use any other engine.
Paul Smith

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2016, 07:58:07 PM »
I know this isn't what you asked, but you might consider trying Sport 40 carrier to build basic skills.   You can have a lot of fun and the airplane you are beating up is simple and inexpensive.  You don't say where you are located, but if you can make it to a contest you will find that everyone is helpful and friendly. 
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2016, 08:17:09 PM »
I  have never owned a Nelson 36, and I've done OK for myself. To answer your questions in order:

*Placing the bellcrank pivot behind the CG makes the line slider sweep back positively without the need for a spring, rubberband, etc. It only matters during the split second when the line slider is in transit. Otherwise, where the bellcrank is mounted doesn't matter. (Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!)

*My profile MO-1 has 345 sq. inches of area. If it weren't so windy in Texas, I might go as much as about 400 sq. in.

*My wingspan is 44". I made my profile, Class I and Class II all the same size, and 44" is the maximum in the scale classes.

* My wing has a symmetrical airfoil, 12% thick at the root and 15% at the tip. Without measuring, I don't remember the actual thickness measurements.

*I think reverse rotation is helpful for low speed, but not a necessity. I think Fox 36's with the big back plate would be a good place to start. There were reverse cranks made for the Mk 6 and Mk 7 combat specials, so you may be able to get your hands on one of those. Failing that, the 36/40 Deluxe also has a factory reverse crank available. At 1/2", it is a smaller crank than the combat engines. Still, with some work, and perhaps an aftermarket piston/cyl/head button, you can end up with a potent engine. With any of the Foxes, you will want to adapt some other better carburetor. Back in the early 1990's, I wrote an article on how to modify a Fox case to accept an OS carb.

*Profiles don't have to be scale to enter, only to receive bonus points. Whether a CD would give you bonus points for a mid-wing rendition of a low wing airplane is up to the CD. Personally, I probably would not give bonus points.

I have plans for my profile MO-1. I can provide them as a PDF or paper copies.

*My profiles typically weigh about 40 oz. I can build them lighter, but they can be too light to fly well in the wind. I actually ADD weight sometimes if it's windy on contest day.

I hope you find some part of this useful. Best of luck to you.

Bill Bischoff

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 07:17:57 AM »
For the past several years, planes powered with the 40 case Nelson .36 & Nelson muffler have dominated the annual NCS Top Twenty rankings. They show up on eBay from time to time. They're not inexpensive. You will probably have to fit your own carb.

Bill Melton's MK XV Profile Guardian plan is available from AMA ( Plan # 896).

Brodak sells the Bill Calkins designed Guardian. If you don't want the kit, plans and rib sets are also available.

Both of these planes are competitive. If you search Stunthanger for "Brodak Guardian" you will find some build discussions and recommendations for mods that make the plane work very well.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 05:55:55 AM by Bob Heywood »
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline john vlna

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 10:27:57 AM »
While high speed is needed, hence the nelsons, you can fly slow without the super high performance front end. The Fox as Bill suggests , K&B 5.8 old but still available used, the OS 32F, etc. And you can fly slow without a LH motor.
Now here is the thing to consider. Why not go electric?  Lot's of stuff available and it is a lot of fun.
OK the glow guys may now throw rocks.
John

Offline dale gleason

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 11:06:01 AM »
I've slowed to almost a standstill in Carrier Competition, but still have all my carrier engines. None is a Nelson. Most have reverse cranks, but, my .15 Sniper ran a standard Irivine .15 for years, actually I did better with it than the Conquest reverse crank. I placed 2nd and 3rd in Class II a few times at the NATs, using my OS.65DFRE. I ran it backwards by Bill's clocking the backplate 90 degrees, there's people here who can explain how that's done.

The reverse running engine aids in regaining line tension, when you "goose it", it yaws outward, nice to have, but, not a necessity at all.

And thank you for your interest in Carrier, the Event could use some new faces!

dale  gleason

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 12:48:47 PM »
Louis -- where are you located?  

PS - after reading a few more answers more thoroughly, I will respectfully disagree with Bill B. on the awarding of scale bonus points if the  wing is moved up or down in the fuse.  Without digging up the rules and doing a copy/paste, I think I can paraphrase closely enough thusly:

Bonus points will be awarded if the top view OUTLINE of the wing & horizontal tail surfaces

AND the  side view OUTLINE of the fuselage and vertical tail surfaces


closely resemble the 3 view (blah, blah, etc.)

So moving the wing to mid-fuse from a low or high placement would not (probably) change the OUTLINE of the side view.  I've always said if I recognize what your trying to model, it 'closely resembles ...' enough.

All of this applies ONLY to Profile class - Class 1 and 2 have different rules.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 01:14:45 PM by Mike Anderson »
Mike@   AMA 10086
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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 03:02:58 PM »
So Mike, you are agreeing with my assessment that it would be up to the CD to decide, but you are disagreeing with my personal judgement. You should know that the CD's judgement is the FINAL WORD.  VD~ (Mike, I'm not mad, just messin' with you.)

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2016, 03:57:36 PM »
It ALWAYS up to the CD to decide - I'm just pointing out that what he is allowed to consider is spelled out.  I also wouldn't complain if you didn't give me the points and someone else did.  To turn the argument completely around, suppose someone built an MO-1 with a low wing instead of a shoulder wing or (vice-verse) a P-51 with a shoulder wing.  I think that at that point, I would just retire from the event.   S?P
Mike@   AMA 10086
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Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 09:28:45 AM »
You guys are great, thanks for all the information.

Your answers & suggestions give me a lot to think about, and a great start. I am sure I will have quite a few more questions shortly.

I will say it is a bit deserting to see such varied opinions on what I see as a very simple rule. I would think if the PC resembles a given model, bonus points will be awarded. Closely meaning (as I interpret the rules) “top view outline of the wing & horizontal tail surfaces, side view outline of the fuselage and vertical tail surfaces”.

Looking at Conley’s designs showing the wing angled upwards at the leading edge and lowered on the trailing edge, deeming those designs acceptable to receive PC bonus points seems OK. Yet running the same plane design with wing leading edge on the same location, yet keeping the trailing edge in line & not angled down ward as not acceptable to receive PC bonus points, does not seem OK in my opinion.

Don't both wing locations clearly portray the real plane being modeled ? Or am I missing something?

LM 

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 09:38:19 AM »
From what I've seen, there's quite a bit of slack in the scale bonus standard.  Which is to say, you don't need to be very close to get the points.

One real factor is the limitation of the line slider to the trailing edge at the fuselage.  Thus, swept wing planes are a losing deal.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 04:05:23 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 09:42:10 AM »
One important note, and one that shows how great Carrier folks are:

I got to know Bill Melton (via the phone calls) after the 91 Nat’s, he was a great help and truly one of the “greats’. I made many phone calls to Bill, and built one of his Guardians from plans he had sent me. To this day, I still think and appreciate all the time Bill gave me over the phone, just wish he was still around to say Thank You Bill one more time.

I know he is listening; Thank You Bill...!

LM

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2016, 10:02:20 AM »
Try not to overthink it   ;D   As Bill points out, it is entirely possible to get bonus points from one CD and not get them from another.  As Paul points out, there is some slack in the rules (and the interpretation of those rules) for Profile.  In the end, it's only 10 points.  Miss your landing, and it won't matter anyway.  In the VERY end, you probably won't get a second glance except maybe at the NATS.

I'm still curious to know your location so we can point you to some local help.

Mike@   AMA 10086
Central Iowa

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 12:41:28 PM »
Louis, just build something to get in the air.
Good Luck
Wayne
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Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 12:49:40 PM »
Mike, I relocated my family to San Diego, CA in 2014.

Wayne, still have Bill M's Guardian I built in 91, plus an MO-1 based on Carlos A's 91 Nat's winning design...

My thinking is PC has evolved beyond Bill's and Carlos's designs from 25 years ago; maybe yes, maybe not...?

LM
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 01:37:13 PM by Louis Matts »

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 03:44:11 PM »
     Well Louis now you live in one of the best climates in the whole US anyway. I guess we could say you live right in the middle of quite a few carrier contest, BUT. There are 2 carrier contest up in the LA area, Whittier Narrows, and the Sepulveda Basin. I haven't seen the dates yet for those. Then there are 3 contest in Arizona, Tucson in I think late September, Phoenix (Carrier+) at Halloween, and another one in Tucson (SWR) at the end of January. So I guess if you draw a line 200 miles out they are all within that circle (maybe). When the dates come up they are usually in the AMA magazine calendar.  Eric
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Offline john vlna

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 06:11:12 PM »
One of the best ways to find out how and what to fly is to go to contests. You'll learn a lot and carrier fliers are always willing to share info.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 06:15:05 PM »
Mike, I relocated my family to San Diego, CA in 2014.

Wayne, still have Bill M's Guardian I built in 91, plus an MO-1 based on Carlos A's 91 Nat's winning design...

My thinking is PC has evolved beyond Bill's and Carlos's designs from 25 years ago; maybe yes, maybe not...?

LM

Go fly in contests.  A beginner with the best carrier airplane ever, they'll still come in at the bottom because they're a beginner.

If Carrier is like Stunt, it'll take you at least a year or two flying a basic plane before it's the plane holding the pilot back.  Until you get to that point you may as well fly something easy and cheap.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 07:28:50 PM »
Yes Eric, John and Tim, nothing like getting experience at the contest level. I do need to build a new plane or two, and will get started shortly.

Wating to see the contest schedule for March through 2016. Any sites list upcoming schedules? Cant seem to find any local information  /DV within the 200 mile radius.

LM

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 08:33:31 PM »
     I'm pretty sure the first carrier contest will be sometime in May. The only contest that is scheduled in the west right now  is the North West Regional in Roseville Oregon over the 27, 28, and 29th of May. A really great contest.  Eric
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Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2016, 10:01:09 AM »
Thank you Eric, I will keep an eye out for contest schedules.

I do have a few more questions for everyone:

When I built my Bill Melton Guardian in 91, coming around & downwind it would want to slam into the ground, it took all the up elevator & throttle control to keep it flying. This only happened in windy conditions. I know Bill evolved the Guardian over many years, possibly in 91 this was an issue.

Is this normal for a PC or was this one characteristic of the Melton Guardian? Have today’s new PC designs, like Eric’s ME109, Corsair,or Bill B's MO-1, or other designs overcome this characteristic?

Does anyone have, can post or know of any videos of PC low speed flights? Would love to see Bill M, Carlos A, Bill B, Pete M,and todays greats like Eric, Burt, ect.

LM

Offline eric david conley

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2016, 02:18:33 PM »
     All of my carrier planes will do that to some degree in windy conditions and flying the LS portion of the event. Lets say that you are in the LS portion of the event and you are coming around "into" the wind (8 to12mph), you throttle back a bit  because you are finding that you cant keep the plane in a full hang because it would stop or go backwards. You find that you have to play the throttle as well as playing up and down elevator and you are "just" barely making head way while you work to build those LS points. Now as you are moving through the headwind you will find yourself lowering the tail and starting to get into the hang as the headwind decreases. OK, now you need to understand, how your plane is balanced is a big deal. If it is nose heavy which makes flying the HS so easy you are in big trouble and the "slam" is on its way. You need to have a well balanced carrier plane for any LS ability, "tail heavy, but not so much that it make the HS difficult to fly smoothly". OK, back to your plane now, the tail is going down and your increasing throttle (oh this is so cool you think) and suddenly the tail is going down really fast, and oh god, 45 degrees just went to 60 degrees and oh crap its now 80 degrees and the whole dam planes going down too. Now, if your plane was one of the great HS flying planes and its nose heavy and your carrying  full up elevator and your at full power (slam anybody) hopefully you will slam the control handle from full up to full down and the tail will come back around from in front of the nose, the plane will pull up and level out as you fly through the up wind side of the next lap and you have your first 60 degree violation. And now for the next LS lap. Hey this only took 3 seconds. Eric
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Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2016, 05:36:33 PM »
That’s what I recall, thanks for the responce Eric. The windier the conditions, the more the 91 Bill M-Guardian would want to slam into the ground on the downwind side.

Do you or anyone else have any good videos or links showing LS flight of modern day PC? For that matter, I would love to see some of the older LS flight videos as well.

LM

PS: I had also built a 91 Carlos A MO-1 based on the dimensions & pictures I took at the 91 Nat’s. The Carlos MO-1 was a challenge to fly and did not “slam” into the ground nearly as much as the Bill M Guardian. The MO-1 was a tail heavy plane, don’t know how Carlos A ever flew that plane let alone LS of almost 6 minutes, I could hardly keep it in the air. The Bill M Guardian was an easy plane to fly compared to the Carlos A MO-1   :)

Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2016, 05:06:33 PM »
Went out today to a local grass field & got some flight time in with a profile I built a few years ago, getting some air time on the lines in the next weeks & couple of months before I finish my new PC. Lot's to do, very rusty, LOL

LM

Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2016, 05:02:04 AM »
Louis, contact Tim Lanore about DVD's taken at Brodak Carier events. Lots of flights of Profile Carrier at Brodak Fly In. This is the most current address I have.

Wayne
timbo_422@hotmail.com
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Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2016, 11:53:45 AM »
Great information Wayne, Thank you!  #^

LM

Offline david smith

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2016, 06:37:20 PM »
For some videos do a search on YouTube for control line navy carrier and there are a few videos that pop up.  There is a video of one of my flights on a pretty windy day if you search for control line carrier Huntersville.

David

Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2016, 10:40:32 AM »
I saw your video  y1. Very nice flight Dave  H^^ Thanks!

LM

Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2016, 02:26:25 PM »
Looks like I found a slightly used N36, standard rotation. What is the suggested propeller for these engines? I am guessing 9x6 APC or?

LM

Offline BillCalkins

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2016, 05:20:18 PM »
9 x 6, 9 x 7 APC. I have used a 9 x 5 on a worn out one. I do tend to run high nitro, 70%

Offline Louis Matts

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Re: Profile Carrier questions for the pro's
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2016, 01:41:20 PM »
Thanks Bill  H^^

Will try APC 9x6. I also have some old stock Zinger 9x6 & 9-7 to try out.

LM


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