stunthanger.com
News:
CICK HERE---->    <----CLICK HERE
 
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. June 26, 2017, 11:32:08 PM


Login with username, password and session length



Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Navy Carrier Skill Level Events  (Read 2303 times)
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« on: March 14, 2017, 11:14:04 AM »

A Thank You to Joe Just for broaching this topic...

There are in fact skill level events in Navy Carrier. The Navy Carrier Society sponsors Sportsman Profile Carrier and Sportsman .15 Carrier events. Profile and .15 were chosen because each has the highest participation in the open classes. So far entry is by "gentlemen's agreement" but is intended for those contestants who don't wish to compete at the higher level. There is a provision for the ED to bump someone up if their performance is out of line with the intent of the Sportsman Division.

Sportsman Profile was offered last year at Brodak and had five entries while AMA Profile had nine entries. Both Sportsman events were offered at last year's NATS and had a couple of entries each. They are again on the event list for this year's NATS. Sportsman Profile will be held on Tuesday and Sportsman. 15 will be flown on Thursday of NATS week. Here's your chance.

In addition both may be flown at the Dayton, OH contests in June and October. Scores go the NCS Top Twenty rankings. In 2016 there were eight Sportsman Profile scores in the Top Twenty and two Sportsman .15 scores.

In checking the Flying Lines web site I see that neither Sportsman event seems to be offered. Here's your opportunity Joe...

"Hook down...Wheels down..."
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."


Paul Smith
2016 supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Age: 70
Posts: 4141



« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 12:45:49 PM »

The problem isn't a people problem.  It's mainly several EQUIPMENT issues.

Profile, Class I & II are still dominated by a handful of left-handed Nelson 36, 40, and 46's which are not available even with normal rotation.  There is no incentive to enter an event where you have no chance of getting competitive equipment.  But the few who rule don't care if there's only one entry as long as they win.

When I got into Carrier it worked like this:

Profile:  Stock plain bearing 36RC engines with the factory throttle.
Class I:  Supertiger G21/40RC
Class II: anything you can get.

So we had events for every level from engine buyers to engine builders.  Now it's ALL for engine builders.

If you want to make an event that works, make an event for factory .25's with the stock throttle & muffler.  Those are still on the market.  That way a new person would have a chance of getting in.  Today's OS 25's outrun the old G21/40.

15 was doing great until they mixed totally reliable electrics with tricky 15's.  There is no such thing as an electric 15.
Logged

Paul Smith
eric david conley
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 81
Location: Gardnerville Nevada
Posts: 423


« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 01:49:32 PM »

     Well I think the problem is more of a people problem. First, there has to be several 100 Nelson engines that were assembled just for carrier out in the great beyond so there are Nelson to be had. Most of the people that I have known that got one or more of these engines never did anything with them. I heard story's about they were to hard to get running or theirs never went as fast as the other guys, all kinds of excuses and then nothing more hear from them. I guess they wanted to start at the top and it didn't work first time out and they were "out of here". Joe mentions people asking him about flying carrier but they didn't necessarily want to compete as they were generally sport fliers. Then he says they didn't want to go to a contest and be embarrassed  by the pro's. I'm at a loss when I hear people talk this way. They say they want to do something and then they make an excuse why the aren't going to do it???
     I have given some of these people that I though for sure were going to fly carrier a plane ready to fly, gone out with them and shown them how its done and the score basically turns out = out of 5, 3 of them took the planes home and hung them in their garages never to be seen again, the other 2 took their planes out to the flying field and crashed them on their first flight trying to do what the saw me doing, never to seen again. The only guy that ever went on to fly carrier after I introduced them to it was Burt Brokaw and we all know how that turned out.
Logged

Eric
eric david conley
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 81
Location: Gardnerville Nevada
Posts: 423


« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 02:17:57 PM »

     And another thing, all of the contests that I have gone to in the Western US have allowed anyone to pick a carrier event and fly it for the top 20 list. No one has ever been turned away, their welcome with open arms. They have fun and we have fun with them. Some actually come back and fly again a year later.
     So I think it is a people problem, it called something like "instant gratification" if they cant get instantly their gone never to seen again. At every contest and all the times we "carrier people" get together we talk about this topic and the only person that I know of that ever stuck with it is Burt. Quality over quantity on that one at least.
     As far as skill levels go they work and work well as stunt has shown us. I think that stunt is the only event in CL flying where it has worked and that speaks well for the many stunt fliers who hung around long enough to put everything together for the great outcome they have had. I don't think we in carrier have ever had the numbers of serious competitor's that could do this in the last 18 years that I have been in carrier events.
Logged

Eric
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 03:12:02 PM »

As I said in my opening post we do have Sportsman and Open in Profile and .15. What we don't have are a lot of people. When we had a lot of people no one seemed to complain about having to compete with everyone else.

At Brodak this past year Sportsman Profile had a decent entry in relative terms and I think the event served its intended purpose. Joe Just brought one of his planes so a beginner could give Carrier a try and I think the guy had a good time. The entrants in AMA Profile were seasoned veterans and from what I saw had an equally good time. The bottom line is that people will want to do Navy carrier or they won't. It's also true that some people are more competitive by nature than others. We have opportunities for both.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:46:19 PM by Bob Heywood » Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
Paul Smith
2016 supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Age: 70
Posts: 4141



« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 04:11:07 PM »

They can and will take Carrier to the grave with them.

Stunt, Combat and Racing took steps to survive.  Carrier has a death wish.
Logged

Paul Smith
eric david conley
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 81
Location: Gardnerville Nevada
Posts: 423


« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2017, 04:54:12 PM »

     I think Paul may be on to something here. Paul please tell us more if the end is near.
Logged

Eric
JoeJust
Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 79
Posts: 1372



« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2017, 07:57:16 PM »

So far we have only heard from guys that compete regularly. Come on "lurkers" give us your real thoughts. Wdith nearly 70 viewers so far there ahs to be some interesting "takes" on this. We need your input!
Joe
Logged

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place
Mark Scarborough
2015
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Online Online

Age: 58
Location: Pullman Washington
Posts: 5931


« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2017, 08:49:08 PM »

The problem isn't a people problem.  It's mainly several EQUIPMENT issues.

Profile, Class I & II are still dominated by a handful of left-handed Nelson 36, 40, and 46's which are not available even with normal rotation.  There is no incentive to enter an event where you have no chance of getting competitive equipment.  But the few who rule don't care if there's only one entry as long as they win.

When I got into Carrier it worked like this:

Profile:  Stock plain bearing 36RC engines with the factory throttle.
Class I:  Supertiger G21/40RC
Class II: anything you can get.

So we had events for every level from engine buyers to engine builders.  Now it's ALL for engine builders.

If you want to make an event that works, make an event for factory .25's with the stock throttle & muffler.  Those are still on the market.  That way a new person would have a chance of getting in.  Today's OS 25's outrun the old G21/40.

15 was doing great until they mixed totally reliable electrics with tricky 15's.  There is no such thing as an electric 15.

Look at the NW sport .40 carrier class, stock OS 40 FP or tower .40
Logged

For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137
Mark Scarborough
2015
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Online Online

Age: 58
Location: Pullman Washington
Posts: 5931


« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2017, 09:00:39 PM »

I was looking at flying carrier, seriously, and Joe can tell you that I am a competative person by nature, I dont do things just because. FOr example, if I did not fly stunt I would not fly control line,, its the competition that drives me.
I asked several questions here and in person to other people, it degraded into and argument between powers that be and I never got a clear answer. I was accused of looking for a fast way to the top, it was an assumption that was way off base, WAY off base. It soured me on the event though I am still intruiged by it.
Here in the NW I was chatting with some people and wanted to try profile as an entry level, but it required a .35 which I did not have, I suggested why not use a 40 FP since a lot of guys have them, I was poo pooed immediatly for "trying to make the rules fit me" another case of the insiders discouraging a wanna be,, me.
now there is the 40 nw sport carrier event which is pretty cool and seems to have brought some new blood, I have a NIB OS FP, I have plans, but everytime I think about pulling out the plans, I get discouraged by the reception I was given,,, that is MY experience. I fly stunt, the skill classes have motivated me and allowed me to progress while still feeling competative within my peers.
I dont know how you would break down the event into skill classes cleanly for carrier. would it save carrier, not sure, but its better than creating yet another event like they did in racing until its so diluted that the same 5 guys fly all classes. SO if you are going to actually pursue this as a means to build the class, my opinion is that there can be NO experts flying in the entry classes period, no excuses, no " filling out the field" and once a person wins, or whatever means is determined, then you are moved up period never to return to the entry level.
My two cents worth, and yes you are correct I dont fly carrier, I wanted to, I want to, but like I said, right or wrong I was detered by the reception I recieved and thats hard to overcome

call my a whiner if you want, accuse me of wanting to start at the top if you want, whatever, I know what I got reception wise,
Logged

For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137
JoeJust
Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 79
Posts: 1372



« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2017, 09:57:34 AM »

Thanks Mark!  You pointed out some important ideas. How about some other "Lurker" ideas?
Joe
Logged

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2017, 10:45:57 AM »

To repeat. There are skill level events for Profile Carrier and .15 Carrier. Granted, they're not in the AMA Rule Book and they're not as formalized as in Stunt, but they do exist and they work. So, what do you really want???

I checked the rules for Northwest Sport 40 Carrier and see no skill level breakdown. It's an open entry event, right in your own backyard. Was the omission just overlooked? So I ask again, what do you really want???

For reference I attached copies of the NCS Top Twenty results from the past several years. You will see that Sportsman has enjoyed a reasonable level of participation. You will also see that Joe Just, our esteemed moderator, posted scores in a couple of years. So Joe, clearly you are aware of the event.

You know, in 1967 I built my first Navy Carrier model, a Sterling Skyshark with a McCoy 35. There wasn't really an event for that particular plane but no never mind, it was a blast to fly. Next I built a Sterling Guardian with a McCoy -60- and jumped in the fray. At the 1968 Olathe NATS I flew the Skyshark, now with a ST G21-40 ringed R/C engine, in SR Class I and the Guardian in SR Class II. It was an honor to compete with the best. I found the top competitors were more than willing to offer advice as long as I was willing to participate, work hard, and show a genuine interest in the event.

So Mark, put together a Nostalgia Class II Guardian and eat your Wheaties. You'll be hooked.

One more time, what do you really want???

Frankly boys & girls, if you wanna to be spoon fed, you ain't gonna find a sympathetic ear with me.

Time to build...

"Hook down...Wheels down..."
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
Mark Scarborough
2015
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Online Online

Age: 58
Location: Pullman Washington
Posts: 5931


« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2017, 11:48:24 AM »

funny you should mention that, I was looking to fly a "nostalgia" design and that is what started the bombardment on me,,

it its not in the rules its not really an event now is it? how do I go read the rules, and know about it "skill classes" what keeps an expert from flying down in a entry level event,

its similar to NW sport race, fox 35 and production kit based airplane, supposed to be entry level but its not that way because it wasnt in the rules so anyone could enter,,

I am not afraid to work hard, my building is certainly adequate, my practice regimine ( for stunt) is basically every day the weather permits I Practice. so hard work is not an issue,
the issue is clarity and investment, why on earth would I build an airframe to participate when no one can clearly resolve whether its a legit design or not..

as I recall, ( this was a few years ago and I have since put it out of my mnd) the question was about building a plane that I could fly in nostalgia and or profile,, the design met the age and by my intepretation, the intent of the rule,, but I had people who fly and administer the event telling me they were not so concerned with what the rules said, but more about what they "meant" to say,, thats like saying you can use a fox 35 intending to mean a fox 35 stunt engine, and then permiting destroked hot rodded  combat specials,, ( this is just a random comparison not something that actually transpired, its the only analogy I could come up with sorry)

so, I talk to guys that fly carrier, it looks fun, but I was frustrated that no one would answer the question with clarity,, and there were a couple other questions I had as well,, anyway,, there ya go,,
Logged

For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137
john e. holliday
2017
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Online Online

Age: 75
Location: Shawnee, KANSAS 66203-2379
Posts: 18245



« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2017, 12:40:13 PM »

I had a lot of fun flying carrier with my Sterling Gaurdian and McCoy Redhead 60.  It seemed I was a natural with that combination.  Oh, I did get a Rossi and built yet another Sterling Gaurdian.  But, I needed a pit man as the Rossi did not work for me with starting and then going to the plane like the old reliable McCoy.   I let another person take my McCoy/Gaurdian and start competing.  By then we had profile, class 1 and class 2.  Profile was entries were not allowed to fly scale and vice versa.  I stayed in scale carrier.  We had decent turnouts for the profile event but then some changed the rules to let a person fly all three classes.  I lost my last Class 2 when someone said ley me show you how to fly it.  It was a design not meant to hang.  I didn't get to compete that weekend as the plane was broken when it went on its back and didn't pull out.   I fly a Roberts Bearcat and like the way it flies.  I don't hang it as it don't look real to me.  The 60 degree I thought was ridiculous until I seen a Navy jet  with everything hanging out fly down the run way at a 60 degree angle.  Was told he would never land on a deck like that though that he was just showing what the plane was capable of.   At the end of the runway/show area he advanced throttle and went vertically out of site.  The last time I flew sports man was against a fellow flyer who had a plane with all the stuff to hang.   It was disheartening to see that when I think the entry should have been regular profile.   Anyway I won that day as I got full flight and 100 landing. But there are so many carrier classes that I don't even think of competing anymore.   And now electric power has really not done any thing for me.  What electric motor is comparable to a Rossi 60 or Nelson 36.  I like the NW Sport 40 carrier and I have found in my stash FP 40's especially sense I found out they can use stock muffler pressure.  So watch out guys.
Logged

I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2017, 12:43:01 PM »

Mark,

First and foremost, I will answer any question you might have clearly and to the best of my knowledge.

You need to become familiar with the NCS web site. Bill Calkins has done a great job with improvements in recent months. Here is the direct link to the rules tab:  http://www.navycarriersociety.org/Rules.aspx

If you look over the Top Twenty results I think you will see that no one has abused the Sportsman events. The rule does give the Event Director authority to move someone up if they don't belong. I don't think that has ever happened.

It's unfortunate you didn't get good advice. All I can say is that around here we want people to fly and will do what we can to make that happen.

You might also want look up Navy Carrier Society on Facebook. We have about 38 members in the Group. Things are sometimes a little slow so the more the merrier.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/840127569386742/

So, what exactly would you like to build? I'm presently doing a Nostalgia Profile model.
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2017, 12:56:59 PM »

John,

You need to see Pete Mazur's Class II Electric. You will go away with a new found respect for how fast that thing runs. The sound will send chills up your spine.

No joke!

As for all of the classes...  Just pick one and have fun.
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
eric david conley
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 81
Location: Gardnerville Nevada
Posts: 423


« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2017, 01:11:44 PM »

     Well I got to hand it to you Mark your story has never changed. There is a list of Nostalgia "fore sure" planes that is like 130 planes long and ever sense Dick Perry spent over a year making it and making it available there has been one person after another come along and say "the plane I want to use is not on the list". Then they walk away not to seen until they find an opening to use there story again. Then the NCS agreed that the list "might not" have every plane on it and if flier had documentation on his plane he could enter it and that plane would be added to the list of planes that can be flown in Nostalgia carrier. I know that if you ask enough questions your bound to come up with one that cant be answered. As far as having to compete with a pro in Nostalgia carrier they have all passed away by now I think, could be wrong but if they haven't passed away then I still cant see them as a real threat in competition. I've convinced myself that I don't want to fly Nostalgia because it is to hard, much more difficult to fly than the AMA events.
     I think you need to take Bob's advice and just pick a carrier event build or buy a plane and go out and fly it. Fly the plane a lot. It is not nearly as difficult as stunt, there is only 4 maneuvers, take off, fly fast, fly slow, and land. There are best and worse ways to fly each of those 4 maneuvers and that is where the practice pays you back big time. I cant stand to crash a plane when practicing but I did when I started practicing for carrier but it only amounted to gluing the wing back on the fuselage and the back to practice so you should be able to learn and then compete with one plane, its not that big a deal but you have "start" doing it and stop excusing your self with "reasons". With your experience it will be a piece of cake and you may not like it or maybe you will like but you will never know until you take the plunge.
     I'll be at the NWR in May so come on over to the carrier circle and play with us for at least a little while, I'm sure I have met you before and we BS on the subject so a visit would be fun, hope to see you there.
Logged

Eric
john vlna
2017
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1184



« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2017, 01:17:06 PM »

I think Bob's last post sums it up, build whatever you like, fly it and have fun. It is a HOBBY!
Logged
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2017, 01:54:51 PM »

Heck, do what Paul Smith did. Build a Brodak 1/2A Pathfinder and hang on a Brodak or OS 15. It really flies great! Or use a Flying Clown. I was loaned one of those and it was a blast. Get in the game.
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
JoeJust
Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 79
Posts: 1372



« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »

Bob, so what do I want?  Well another new right leg would be nice, but I digress. I want Who (Whom?) ever has the power to change the complete coverage of  Navy Carrier revolving around the Nat's.  The constant pushing of Nat's results etc has led to 15 separate events there with less than 12 contestants.  What I want Bob is for our leadership to realize the fact that Carrier is loosing interest of Going to Muncie and competing with absolutely no chance of winning anything.  This event should be our Crowning Glory, it has become a joke. With only 'expert participation the NCS can not even get a team to work the event. How "Bush League" can it get? What year was the annual "Rookie" award given out?  Our goal should be to form programs and ADVERTISING that appeal to those that like the idea of giving Carrier a try. Skill classes just might do the trick if we use some up to date promotion, particularly to those that don't give a Rat's Patoot about web sites. You an d I met for the first time at the past Brodak Carrier meet. 12-14 or so entrants. Top end expert flying, a lot of fun with many innovations. Did you ask how many of the guys/gals there were NCS members?  
Finally Bob I think it is time for you to take over the leadership of the NCS. Become the President (if here ever is another election). You have the interest and more importantly you do try very hard to present your ideas. I might even be willing to re-join the NCS irth that happening.
(Write no more Claudius, Write no more)
Joe
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 02:43:43 PM by JoeJust » Logged

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place
Mark Scarborough
2015
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Online Online

Age: 58
Location: Pullman Washington
Posts: 5931


« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2017, 06:46:51 PM »

Hopefully soon I can dedicate some time again, grandkids, work and other nonsense seem to be taxing my available time now that I used ot have for hobby involvment.
Publically I want to make clear I was not rehashing this years old situation with ill will, only honestly trying to contribute. I did really want to participate, and those who know me understand I have no desire to have it given, I work hard on my stunt program and any other competative event I enter.
SO to be clear, no sour grapes here, just had a mixed result YEARS ago when I was activly pursuing learning about the event. I did what your supposed to and asked questions of those who know, and got mixed frustrating answers. It was shortly after that my time, finances and family precluded involvment to a large degree.
Maybe if I end up working away from home this summer ( as has been the rumor) I can build a carrier plane, not sure if I will have a place to build or practice stunt anyway,, carrier planes fit on a kitchen table in a hotel room  y1
again, sorry if it sounded sour grapes, or if someone took offense it was not intended that way. More than likely my issue years ago was more a issue with wrtten word versus spoken words. However I was kind of pissed that I kept getting the " just do it, practice and dont expet it handed to you" because I have never in any competative event expected it handed to me.
when I bowled tournements, I averaged practicing over a 100 games a week, last year my stunt program I was flying 4 days average a week.. so yeah, I put in the effort,
again, I apologize if I ruffled feathers, it was not my intent to be sure
Logged

For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137
BillCalkins
Trade Count: (0)
Ensign
**
Offline Offline

Location: 60554
Posts: 38


« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2017, 12:11:20 AM »

Back in the '70s when PAMPA had 1 skill class they almost went extinct. So they added 4 skill classes instead of one.
If we were to do that in Carrier, we would take 3 classes and turn it into 12. Actually adding in Electric and Sportsman classes we would change it from the nine classes we have to 28 if we were to do Profile, Class I, Class II (Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and Expert), Electric(B,I,A,E) and .15(Sportsman and Pro) eliminating Sportsman altogether.
As a CD (ED) I can't afford to purchased 28 trophies for a contest where I might in a great day see 6 fliers entering in about 8 classes.
My shop is full of unawarded trophies.
That is why we came up with the Sportsman classes and combined events.
Logged
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 08:10:40 AM »

Mark,

At this point I think you know what options are available. When you're ready to commit let me know. I am more than willing to lend advice.

You know where to find me...

"Hook down...Wheels down..."
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
JoeJust
Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 79
Posts: 1372



« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2017, 08:41:17 AM »

Back in the '70s when PAMPA had 1 skill class they almost went extinct. So they added 4 skill classes instead of one.
If we were to do that in Carrier, we would take 3 classes and turn it into 12. Actually adding in Electric and Sportsman classes we would change it from the nine classes we have to 28 if we were to do Profile, Class I, Class II (Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and Expert), Electric(B,I,A,E) and .15(Sportsman and Pro) eliminating Sportsman altogether.
As a CD (ED) I can't afford to purchased 28 trophies for a contest where I might in a great day see 6 fliers entering in about 8 classes.
My shop is full of unawarded trophies.
That is why we came up with the Sportsman classes and combined events.

Bill, then why not just change Profile into the 3 skill classes?  that's the only Carrier event that is likely to draw new people. To heck with the trophies. Trophies don't draw competition.  Simple printed awards that can be made up in advance can be done on just about any computer could be offered. Let the contestant frame them or whatever.  Bill thanks for pointing out the absolutely unmanageable  situation with Carrier. 15 separate events.  Maybe we should just pave over the mess and start all over again.  While I'm at it, just one more tirade.  Sportsman  profile is NOT A skill class. As is, anyone that has the flying skill and desires to be on top in the ratings could forgo entering AMA profile, enter Sportsman and outscore the rest of the group by hundreds of points.  He or she would be looked on as a Pariah but still have the top rating. Perhaps I go on too much, but there are others that feel the  current rules need to be pruned.
Joe
Logged

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2017, 10:37:13 AM »

What Joe wants...Plus more...

National Championships -

First off, the assertion that the Navy Carrier Society doesn't have the event under control or is "Bush League" is blatantly false and frankly disrespectful. As Event Director, I have the necessary core team in place and have been working since the end of 2016 coordinating with AMA HQ to organize the event. Everything is on track.

Trying to lay blame on Society leadership for the competitive picture at the National Championships is just petty excuse mongering. Each individual makes a personal choice as to the way they wish to approach competition. From what I have observed everyone who actually participates has enjoyed themselves. That, in my book, is a measure of the success of the event.

Promotion -

I have to agree that the Society has been too "quiet" of late and have been working to change that situation. Our Facebook Group and web site upgrades are examples of that effort. More will come. Like it or not, social media and the web are how communication takes place these days and we needed to be there. It's individual choice whether to be informed or not.

NCS Participation -

No. I did not poll the contestants at Brodak. What I did do however was run some numbers on 2016 participation. I found a couple of things. First, roughly 50% of active Navy Carrier participants are NCS members of record. Second, roughly 42% of the members of record actually participated at some event. Could it be better, sure. But, I'm happy if someone flies, even if they choose not to belong to the Society. We are still there supporting Carrier on their behalf.

Events -

Call it Skill Level, Performance Level, or whatever... Sportsman works. Your overstated claim that someone will abuse the event simply has ZERO merit. It has never happened. Some in the Sportsman results are beginners, some are long time Carrier fliers who are no longer able to fly at a higher level of performance. Some just like to compete under less pressure. It works. We have no need to make things more complicated.

As far as a wholesale change... The people actually participating have seen no reason to institute any changes and no one else has submitted anything during the AMA Rules Change Process. Changing the rules in an attempt to neutralize or denature the efforts of those who choose to apply themselves and, as a result, compete at the top level is something I will never support.

"Hook down...Wheels down..."
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
Mark Scarborough
2015
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Online Online

Age: 58
Location: Pullman Washington
Posts: 5931


« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2017, 11:22:12 AM »

Mark,

At this point I think you know what options are available. When you're ready to commit let me know. I am more than willing to lend advice.

You know where to find me...

"Hook down...Wheels down..."
Roger that Bob, I have in fact since the "incident" occured done further exploration and in fact do have a better idea, I will take you up on that when the time arrives,, thank you
Logged

For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137
john vlna
2017
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1184



« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2017, 12:13:30 PM »

"NCS Participation -

No. I did not poll the contestants at Brodak. "

RE the people that fly carrier at Brodak's The majority are cross over fliers from other events, primarily stunt and scale. I would categorize the typical flier a sport carrier type, 15 is the most popular event, typically 10-12 fliers. We particularly encourage first time carrier fliers.

John
Logged
Paul Smith
2016 supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Age: 70
Posts: 4141



« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2017, 01:32:05 PM »

NW 40 is a good event.

Everything else needs a complete modernization to get in step with current reality.

The Brodak draws a lot of participation entries out of respect to Mr. Brodak.  This applies to all events, not just Carrier.  In general, Brodak numbers don't mean anything beyond year-to-year comparisons of The Brodak.
Logged

Paul Smith
JoeJust
Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 79
Posts: 1372



« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2017, 05:33:10 PM »

Bob, the reason I admire you is the direct feed back you give, no matter the subject.  Keep it up!  The NCS needs great leadership that will listen and react. So, with that note I will retire from adding anything else. At 80 years old perhaps it is just time to fade away.
Joe Just
Proud to be almost always listed in the bottom  80 and not in the top 20.
Logged

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2017, 06:29:28 PM »

Joe,

I'd much rather work with you than trade barbs. Ideas and advice are always welcome, but with the realization that the end result is often a compromise that everyone can accept.

Competition C/L is facing a direct challenge from factions within the AMA HQ bureaucratic hierarchy that is very real. All of C/L needs to work together to counter the threat. We can ill afford internecine conflict that wastes valuable time and energy. We need to work together.

Take care...

"Hook down...Wheels down..."
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
JoeJust
Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 79
Posts: 1372



« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2017, 07:39:05 PM »

Bob, Thanks!  I will work with and for you even if I never go to the Nat's again or rejoin the NCS.  Today after my latest thread I found out I DO NOT HAVE CANCER IN MY NECK!  That alone is news good enough to change some of my recent tirades.  Not all mind you, just some (LOL) One final note concerning the Carrier turn out at the Nat's.  Since 1996 all Nat's have been in one place. Perhaps the declining entries are a result of people not interested in going back there year after year. That might just be the reason. With local competitors unwilling to make the trip it makes sense to me.
Joe
With all that I am still proud to represent the bottom 80%.  Bob, please run for the Prez of the NCS!!!!!
Logged

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place
eric david conley
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 81
Location: Gardnerville Nevada
Posts: 423


« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2017, 07:54:47 PM »

     Joe Just, would you please explain your next to last sentence "With all that I am proud to represent the bottom 80%"?
Logged

Eric
JoeJust
Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 79
Posts: 1372



« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2017, 09:19:00 AM »

No
Joe
Logged

I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place
Balsa Butcher
2013 Supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2241


High Desert Flier


« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2017, 09:20:23 AM »

I'm staying out of the main discussion but NW Sport 40 was brought up. Without going into details, I think there is enough participation to, even as a trial run, break it down into two classes, Sportsman and Competitor. NW Profile Stunt does that and the reception has been favorable. This would address the issue of it being just another beginner event dominated by experts.  Cool
Logged

Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499
eric david conley
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 81
Location: Gardnerville Nevada
Posts: 423


« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2017, 10:10:22 AM »

     That is a good idea Pete. It is a great event and so relaxing to fly for the experts, I love the event and don't want to see it ruined by the likes of me or Burt. I like to be near it so I can maybe help someone that is struggling or what ever. The event is a little like .15 carrier in that the flier can learn everything with these planes that it will take to advance or just stay with NWS40 and enjoy them selves.
Logged

Eric
john e. holliday
2017
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Online Online

Age: 75
Location: Shawnee, KANSAS 66203-2379
Posts: 18245



« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2017, 01:13:46 PM »

At one time there was a limit on score that decided if you flew Profile or sportsmen.   What happened to that rule? 
Logged

I was always taught to respect my elders, but it keeps getting harder to find one.
Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530
Bob Heywood
Trade Count: (0)
Captain
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 69
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 593



« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2017, 04:28:26 PM »

At one time there was a limit on score that decided if you flew Profile or sportsmen.   What happened to that rule? 

 Huh
Logged

"Clockwise Forever..."
Balsa Butcher
2013 Supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2241


High Desert Flier


« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2017, 06:09:54 PM »

Thanks for the vote of support Eric. I hope the NW guys take it under consideration. At first the Competitor class may have only two entrants however I predict that this class division would result in increased participation to where you and Bur...(Ooops)  I mean those two unnamed fliers would soon have some competition.  Cool
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 09:53:06 AM by Balsa Butcher » Logged

Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499
Paul Smith
2016 supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Age: 70
Posts: 4141



« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2017, 07:32:01 AM »

I'm staying out of the main discussion but NW Sport 40 was brought up. Without going into details, I think there is enough participation to, even as a trial run, break it down into two classes, Sportsman and Competitor. NW Profile Stunt does that and the reception has been favorable. This would address the issue of it being just another beginner event dominated by experts.  Cool

Or better yet, simply BAR those who enter AMA Rule Book carrier events from flying NW 40.  People are not obligated to "cover" every event.

That used to the the rule in AMA Profile Carrier:  Class I & II flyers not allowed in Profile.  It worked fine until they muscled-in.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 09:24:27 AM by Paul Smith » Logged

Paul Smith
Balsa Butcher
2013 Supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2241


High Desert Flier


« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2017, 09:59:52 AM »

I think for this regional event the skill class would work. No sense limiting participation in any class. Having an advanced class would give the Sportsman fliers something to strive for and observe how it can be done.  Cool

Drop the words "and should be"  and then I would agree with your statement 100%.
Joe

Consider it "done".  Cool
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 03:01:39 PM by Balsa Butcher » Logged

Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499
Paul Smith
2016 supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Age: 70
Posts: 4141



« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2017, 11:11:36 AM »

You could close the deal simply by offering NW-40 and AMA Profile on an either/or basis.
Logged

Paul Smith
Balsa Butcher
2013 Supporter
Trade Count: (0)
Admiral
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2241


High Desert Flier


« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2017, 07:09:36 PM »

I see your point Joe. We'll see how it goes at the NW Regionals. May bring my 20 year old "BusterCat" out of retirement to take on all comers.  Cool
Logged

Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Tags:
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM