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Author Topic: Nobler Fix  (Read 29180 times)

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2016, 06:59:22 PM »
I finally sanded the fiberglass epoxy I slapped on. Put it on, sand it off ::)
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2016, 10:01:05 AM »
I finally sanded the fiberglass epoxy I slapped on. Put it on, sand it off ::)

      I have been following this one silently, but, aside from the color, this looks very much like one of my repairs from ancient times! I knocked the nose off of 3 or 4 of my Noblers, in some cases multiple times.

    As long as you don't mess up the broken ends too much, you can just push the fiber back together, and hit it with thin Hot stuff, and it will stay, because the shredded ends for excellent low-angle splices. That's how we fixed Bob Hunt's airplane at some NATs - the wind picked it up and broke the fuse right in half about 2" behind the TE of the wing. It was all still attached and all the fibers were intact, so Bob McDonald pushed it back together, and you could barely see the joint. We hit it with thin Hot Stuff and it was pretty much fixed. They beefed it up, it it was probably at least as good as original structurally, with just the glue. The only issue was that the crack fit together so well it was hard to get the glue into the joint, so sometimes you have to poke small holes along it with a pin to give the glue someplace to get into the wood.

    If the ends get rounded off, then you do have to resort to doublers, etc. Or, look for the thread where Jim Aron spliced an entirely new nose on his 20-pointer - for a PA65! Lot of people just give up, but these sorts of breaks, even at the wing LE, are almost always fixable, even with shakers like a Fox. It sure takes less time to fix than to build a new airplane.

    Brett

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2016, 11:05:55 AM »
That should hold up pretty well.  Just don't lawn dart it.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2016, 01:22:30 PM »
      I have been following this one silently, but, aside from the color, this looks very much like one of my repairs from ancient times! I knocked the nose off of 3 or 4 of my Noblers, in some cases multiple times.

    As long as you don't mess up the broken ends too much, you can just push the fiber back together, and hit it with thin Hot stuff, and it will stay, because the shredded ends for excellent low-angle splices. That's how we fixed Bob Hunt's airplane at some NATs - the wind picked it up and broke the fuse right in half about 2" behind the TE of the wing. It was all still attached and all the fibers were intact, so Bob McDonald pushed it back together, and you could barely see the joint. We hit it with thin Hot Stuff and it was pretty much fixed. They beefed it up, it it was probably at least as good as original structurally, with just the glue. The only issue was that the crack fit together so well it was hard to get the glue into the joint, so sometimes you have to poke small holes along it with a pin to give the glue someplace to get into the wood.

    If the ends get rounded off, then you do have to resort to doublers, etc. Or, look for the thread where Jim Aron spliced an entirely new nose on his 20-pointer - for a PA65! Lot of people just give up, but these sorts of breaks, even at the wing LE, are almost always fixable, even with shakers like a Fox. It sure takes less time to fix than to build a new airplane.

    Brett
The broken ends fit together pretty good.

What engines were you running in your Noblers? I guess you have moved on from Noblers to better things?

That should hold up pretty well.  Just don't lawn dart it.

That's some petty good advice Doc! I was hoping to get to meet you at Brodak's but I see you are not going.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2016, 06:29:50 PM »
The broken ends fit together pretty good.

What engines were you running in your Noblers? I guess you have moved on from Noblers to better things?

   As long as the fibers interlock, it will pretty much be as strong as it was originally once you apply the glue. I always chicken out and fiberglass over it, though.

    I was using Fox 35's in my Noblers. Despite my reputation as a Fox-basher, I put something on the order of 3000 flights on a series of Green Box Noblers with Foxes, and once I got it running reliably, it was fine. At the time (late 70's) there wasn't anything that was tremendously better. Before I got it working on Top Flite Tutors, I probably crashed from "burp" issues maybe 2 dozen times. I finally got it to run, more-or-less, through and entire pattern in the Tutor, my first pattern ever. On the same flight, I went back to try the hourglass again, and of course, 3rd corner, burp, quit, crash. I had some issues with it in the Nobler until I found that the Sullivan round tank fit perfectly and ran well, and I was off to the races. I had something like 7 different airplanes and I flew literally every day for quite a while, snow, wind, etc. and I crashed them all multiple times. I had a set of jigs and I could build and entire airplane, with decent quality (although a poor finish) in about a week.

    Another contributing factor is that I always practices by myself and with no help, but with 45 degree markers around the circle, and flew to the correct size no matter what and tried to hit the (at the time) 5 foot radius. That is essentially impossible with a Nobler/Fox, or at least impossible to fly the right size and still have the right shapes, intersections, and bottoms. Forcing it, particularly in marginal conditions, had predictable results. I wish I still had one of the airplane because I would be interested in how well they flew in the trim I flew them. Must have had something right because I could at least get through patterns doing it as I did, and I sure would know better now.

    I then moved on to the ST46 in a Dick Mathis Genesis 40FSR kit. I flew that for many years, and went from my first contest to my first 500 point pattern with it. That flew very well although the controls were grossly too fast. Once I got an adjustable handle and got the controls slowed down, it flew very well.

   Now I fly my own design Infinity, which is an unabashed evolution of Ted Fancher's "Imitation", but about 4 generations removed so nothing about it is actually like the original design. It was designed on the same basic principles and theories as the Trivial Pursuit/Great Expectations (AKA Star Gazer -same airplane), but shares no details, it was a logical scale-up of the Imitation with a full fuse and a Nobleresque turtledeck to provide great passive yaw stability for additional power handling. It was designed for a 40VF, but has been flown on the 40VF, 46VF, PA61 and currently, the RO-Jett 61 BSE. It might be pretty surprising but while they sound and feel different, their ultimate potential is about the same and I have flown them back-to-back-to-back several times and they are all very good. I am sure there are some pictures of it around.

     Brett

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2016, 08:14:12 PM »
   As long as the fibers interlock, it will pretty much be as strong as it was originally once you apply the glue. I always chicken out and fiberglass over it, though.

    I was using Fox 35's in my Noblers. Despite my reputation as a Fox-basher, I put something on the order of 3000 flights on a series of Green Box Noblers with Foxes, and once I got it running reliably, it was fine. At the time (late 70's) there wasn't anything that was tremendously better. Before I got it working on Top Flite Tutors, I probably crashed from "burp" issues maybe 2 dozen times. I finally got it to run, more-or-less, through and entire pattern in the Tutor, my first pattern ever. On the same flight, I went back to try the hourglass again, and of course, 3rd corner, burp, quit, crash. I had some issues with it in the Nobler until I found that the Sullivan round tank fit perfectly and ran well, and I was off to the races. I had something like 7 different airplanes and I flew literally every day for quite a while, snow, wind, etc. and I crashed them all multiple times. I had a set of jigs and I could build and entire airplane, with decent quality (although a poor finish) in about a week.

    Another contributing factor is that I always practices by myself and with no help, but with 45 degree markers around the circle, and flew to the correct size no matter what and tried to hit the (at the time) 5 foot radius. That is essentially impossible with a Nobler/Fox, or at least impossible to fly the right size and still have the right shapes, intersections, and bottoms. Forcing it, particularly in marginal conditions, had predictable results. I wish I still had one of the airplane because I would be interested in how well they flew in the trim I flew them. Must have had something right because I could at least get through patterns doing it as I did, and I sure would know better now.

    I then moved on to the ST46 in a Dick Mathis Genesis 40FSR kit. I flew that for many years, and went from my first contest to my first 500 point pattern with it. That flew very well although the controls were grossly too fast. Once I got an adjustable handle and got the controls slowed down, it flew very well.

   Now I fly my own design Infinity, which is an unabashed evolution of Ted Fancher's "Imitation", but about 4 generations removed so nothing about it is actually like the original design. It was designed on the same basic principles and theories as the Trivial Pursuit/Great Expectations (AKA Star Gazer -same airplane), but shares no details, it was a logical scale-up of the Imitation with a full fuse and a Nobleresque turtledeck to provide great passive yaw stability for additional power handling. It was designed for a 40VF, but has been flown on the 40VF, 46VF, PA61 and currently, the RO-Jett 61 BSE. It might be pretty surprising but while they sound and feel different, their ultimate potential is about the same and I have flown them back-to-back-to-back several times and they are all very good. I am sure there are some pictures of it around.

     Brett
Snow in California?

That was some interesting reading! I'd say you had a lot of experience with the Nobler! I'm curious though why didn't you give the old Redhead McCoy a try over the Fox? I guess the Nobler has its limitations. I'd be pulling my hair out trying to get 7 Fox's running good n~
I saw a picture of a Genesis in the winter time an thought boy that is a cool looking airplane! I don't know what kind of Genesis it was but I'd like to have one.
You should build one more green box Nobler for old time sake!
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2016, 09:28:07 PM »
Snow in California?

That was some interesting reading! I'd say you had a lot of experience with the Nobler! I'm curious though why didn't you give the old Redhead McCoy a try over the Fox? I guess the Nobler has its limitations. I'd be pulling my hair out trying to get 7 Fox's running good n~

    Well, yes, they got about a foot at Lake Tahoe over the weekend and I think the base is something like 60 feet...   But no, at the time, it was snow in central Kentucky. It's not Buffalo or the UP of Michigan, but it was still pretty cold at times.

     I actually don't have much hair, however, it was only 2 Foxes, and for the most part, just one individual engine. At one point I had 40 or so gallon jugs stacked up against the wall and that was not all I had used. No one ever said it wasn't durable, and I would bet I could take it out of the bag, loosen it up, and in the same conditions, it would start up within a click or two of the right setting - and yes, I used the stock needle valve and spraybar.

       I didn't try the McCoy 35 for a very simple reason - I didn't have one! I did have two Fox 35s, my dad's ~1965 model and the 1974 model I got as a Christmas present. I also would have received strong disapproval for using anything but a Fox, because my dad thought (and still probably thinks) that it was the best stunt engine ever so why would you bother with anything else, like an ST46?

    The Fox has some pretty good characteristics. The fact that there are any number of engines designed since 1948 that are much better is a separate point. And, in some ways, it *is* better than an ST46. I sure didn't spend much time taking apart and rebuilding my Fox, which I certainly did with my ST. And I was a layabout compared to a certain 4-time national champion of my acquaintance, he carried 3-4 engine with him all the time and swapped them darn near every contest - of necessity.

Quote
I saw a picture of a Genesis in the winter time an thought boy that is a cool looking airplane! I don't know what kind of Genesis it was but I'd like to have one.
You should build one more green box Nobler for old time sake!

   Bob Hunt has some familiarity with the design, in fact, I think the original Genesis was the first airplane painted from his 55 gallon drum of brown paint. The Bubba-approved versions were the original 35-sized version, and the monster 720 square inch version for the ST46 with which he won the WC, and also managed to run over with his station wagon. The Dick Mathis version was in-between at 630 square inches, which was supposed to be for a 40FSR, but to my mind was a much better size for an ST46 than the big one. And the 40FSR (and the HP 40 Bob used at the WC) had *much more power* than the ST46, if you could find a way to harness it.

   The Genesis was a take-off/inspired by Bill Simon's Gemini, the search for the "zero radius" corner. The big difference was the much larger tail than a standard Nobler-ripoff, to create an "irresistible force" to force the turn tighter and overcome the flap pitching moment better than a Nobler without reducing the lift from the large flaps. It also greatly reduced the effects of the CG shift as the fuel runs out.

    Brett

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2016, 12:00:53 PM »
Well fellas it's not pretty but it is in one piece again. I don't know how you get a smooth finish like it once was. It's almost like they sprayed it cause I don't see any brush strokes in it but I sure do now. I took the tank apart and didn't see anything out of the ordinary, so I guess slap the motor on and do it all over again HB~>
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2016, 12:13:05 PM »
I guess wile I am at it how can I fix this flap? It curves down I guess the wood  is warped. Make a new one or try the steam it?
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2016, 05:18:45 PM »
I guess wile I am at it how can I fix this flap? It curves down I guess the wood  is warped. Make a new one or try the steam it?

Personally, I'd fly it and see how it flies. Then if you feel the flap is causing you trouble, make a new one.

As for making brushed on paint look like it was sprayed, thin it to about 80% and put 20-30 coats on. Each coat goes on a different direction and after a while it will start to become a solid color. You'll be amazed how it
looks.

I did my 1/4 scale Fly Baby Bipe this way after a minor crash and it turned out fantastic AFAIC.  Now, after another "minor" crash (battery failure) I need to do it again but since I'm not flying RC at the moment..............

Good luck, Jerry

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2016, 07:00:09 PM »
How is it held on?  The warp is pretty bad, I'd want it straight before I put the plane in the air.  Whether you try to steam it out, or use dry heat, or just replace it, I think you should at least try to make it better.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2016, 07:37:19 PM »
Don't even think of flying with that flap.   If cloth hinges, easy to replace.  The plane looks good to me and if you are learning you don't need a 20 point finish.  Just make it fuel proof. H^^
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2016, 08:16:52 PM »
Personally, I'd fly it and see how it flies. Then if you feel the flap is causing you trouble, make a new one.

As for making brushed on paint look like it was sprayed, thin it to about 80% and put 20-30 coats on. Each coat goes on a different direction and after a while it will start to become a solid color. You'll be amazed how it
looks.

I did my 1/4 scale Fly Baby Bipe this way after a minor crash and it turned out fantastic AFAIC.  Now, after another "minor" crash (battery failure) I need to do it again but since I'm not flying RC at the moment..............

Good luck, Jerry
What kind of thinner do you use?  Do you sand it too or just put on 20 coats?
How is it held on?  The warp is pretty bad, I'd want it straight before I put the plane in the air.  Whether you try to steam it out, or use dry heat, or just replace it, I think you should at least try to make it better.
Cloth hinges.
Don't even think of flying with that flap.   If cloth hinges, easy to replace.  The plane looks good to me and if you are learning you don't need a 20 point finish.  Just make it fuel proof. H^^
I flew it a couple times but didn't get too serious with it yet. It did fly pretty good despite everything being crooked. Watch now that I got everthing pretty straight it will fly worse ::)
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2016, 08:27:27 PM »
If cloth hinges, easy to replace.

How do you do that?  I was thinking "glued in = impossible".
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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2016, 10:18:50 PM »
I guess wile I am at it how can I fix this flap? It curves down I guess the wood  is warped. Make a new one or try the steam it?

    I would sure fix that (and any other similar issues elsewhere) before flying it. I haven't seen anything like that before, and I don't even know how I would do it on purpose!  I would try steaming it out with lots of steam, but it might require some cutting - cut slices all the way through, bend it straight, apply thin Hot Stuff. It will take more than just one slice.

   Alternately, you could cut away the aft section of the flap, glue on a new aft section, sand it all smooth, and then tissue/paint over it.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2016, 12:08:25 AM »
... and I don't even know how I would do it on purpose!

I've done this by mistake to bare wood.  Long-term storage in unheated basements seems to be conducive to this sort of thing.  I'm not sure how painting the surface impacts things.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2016, 05:20:16 AM »
    I would sure fix that (and any other similar issues elsewhere) before flying it. I haven't seen anything like that before, and I don't even know how I would do it on purpose!  I would try steaming it out with lots of steam, but it might require some cutting - cut slices all the way through, bend it straight, apply thin Hot Stuff. It will take more than just one slice.

   Alternately, you could cut away the aft section of the flap, glue on a new aft section, sand it all smooth, and then tissue/paint over it.

     Brett
Now you're taking!  I like that idea #^
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2016, 07:28:04 AM »
How do you do that?  I was thinking "glued in = impossible".

Acetone will let the glue release the cloth.  It will also remove dope.
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2016, 02:01:10 PM »
Now you're taking!  I like that idea #^

Chris,

Same brand thinner as the paint/dope you are using. I'd only sand any fuzzies off because you're not putting very much dope on. And after 10 or so coats, probably not at all. It should be smooth by them. 20-30 coats may have been an over simplification......But put enough on to get a solid smooth color.
Good luck, Jerry

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2016, 08:14:43 PM »
I think I most of it out slicing it and using CA. Steaming isn't for me it just melted stuff I didn't want melted. The 46 is happily back in #^
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2016, 09:17:59 PM »
If you're still flying that airplane when you get to Advanced you should replace the flaps.  Otherwise, you're probably golden.  Be ready to tweak flaps as necessary to get the wings level in upright and inverted.
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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2016, 09:21:37 PM »
Liner,

I looked at that photo up above, #58.

Looks to me you did a really good job with the repair.

Is the flap all that remains for the fix to be completed?

BTW. Great job matching the paint.  H^^

Charles
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2016, 02:36:17 PM »
Liner,

I looked at that photo up above, #58.

Looks to me you did a really good job with the repair.

Is the flap all that remains for the fix to be completed?

BTW. Great job matching the paint.  H^^

Charles
Thanks! 

Well I chose the easier route of slicing it an re-gluing it straight.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2016, 02:37:52 PM »
If you're still flying that airplane when you get to Advanced you should replace the flaps.  Otherwise, you're probably golden.  Be ready to tweak flaps as necessary to get the wings level in upright and inverted.
So it would be a good intermediate airplane?
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2016, 02:50:53 PM »
Well fellas I got one flight in today with it. I don't know much about trimming but it flew pretty good. It may be a little hard to get it to fly level though, I think it seemed like it kept wanting to rise up a bit. I want to say it was doing the same upside-down but I think what I mean is it wasn't aiming for the ground upside-down it was rising up too. Ehhh really I'm not 100% sure about upside-down but it did seem to want to climb right side up.  Is that a matter of the flaps slightly down when level?

Over all I liked it,  I was running it on .015X58ft lines, I have .015X61ft but I forgot to change them from the 58ft. What do you guys think I should run with the LA 46?


What do you think?
 
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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2016, 04:32:13 PM »
Liner,

Ya got a bunch of models on the ground, where is everybody?

That nobler flies smooth.

Did you ever weigh it? I would be interested in knowing the weight.

Local PD took a drive by.

Charles
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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2016, 04:42:31 PM »
Well fellas I got one flight in today with it. I don't know much about trimming but it flew pretty good. It may be a little hard to get it to fly level though, I think it seemed like it kept wanting to rise up a bit. I want to say it was doing the same upside-down but I think what I mean is it wasn't aiming for the ground upside-down it was rising up too. Ehhh really I'm not 100% sure about upside-down but it did seem to want to climb right side up.  Is that a matter of the flaps slightly down when level?

Over all I liked it,  I was running it on .015X58ft lines, I have .015X61ft but I forgot to change them from the 58ft. What do you guys think I should run with the LA 46?

   Just try them and see which one works the best. You might have to re-trim the airplane to get best performance, then you can evaluate.

     Brett

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2016, 05:19:48 PM »
Liner,

Ya got a bunch of models on the ground, where is everybody?

That nobler flies smooth.

Did you ever weigh it? I would be interested in knowing the weight.

Local PD took a drive by.

Charles
n~ they are all mine,  I've got too many but I can't stop #^. I weighed it yesterday an now is 53.6 oz or 54.6 I can't remember. It keeps getting heavier the more I fix it.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2016, 09:25:23 PM »
Well fellas I got one flight in today with it. I don't know much about trimming but it flew pretty good. It may be a little hard to get it to fly level though, I think it seemed like it kept wanting to rise up a bit. I want to say it was doing the same upside-down but I think what I mean is it wasn't aiming for the ground upside-down it was rising up too. Ehhh really I'm not 100% sure about upside-down but it did seem to want to climb right side up.  Is that a matter of the flaps slightly down when level?

Over all I liked it,  I was running it on .015X58ft lines, I have .015X61ft but I forgot to change them from the 58ft. What do you guys think I should run with the LA 46?

Set the flaps trailing up or down so that the fuselage is dead level in level flight.  If it's nose-up in level flight and plowing the ground in inverted, then you want the flaps trailing down, and visa versa.  If the nose is high (as in away from the ground) in both level and inverted you need more flaps to the elevator through (and visa versa if it's low).  If you can't adjust the elevator to flap ratio -- don't worry about it.

Have you found yourself copies of Paul Walkers trim articles?  Yes, it's a lot of work to go through them -- but it's worth it.
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2016, 06:27:19 AM »
    Hi Liner:

    Did I notice a Black and White checking you out in the one film? McKeesport finest on the job. Lol  As a matter of fact, I roomed with a chap whose dad that was the Chief of Police for McKeesport while we were attending university.  The chap's name was Dennis Hurkla or something like that.  This was in the mid to late 60's.

     I see that you are pitting and taking off on the infield dirt.  This is bad for your equipment.  Move out to the grass in the outfield.  Your engine will thank you!

                                                                                             
                                                                                                   Best of luck,

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2016, 06:45:35 AM »
n~ they are all mine,  I've got too many but I can't stop #^. I weighed it yesterday an now is 53.6 oz or 54.6 I can't remember. It keeps getting heavier the more I fix it.

Liner,

Thank you for that weight. Looks like the OS LA 46 can pull 55oz around quite easily in the pattern.

I'm thinking my OS 30S may pull the ARF Nobler I have? I don't know what an ARF Nobler weighs assembled?

Where did you get all those models? looks like a nice collection.

Charles
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2016, 08:20:37 AM »
    Hi Liner:

    Did I notice a Black and White checking you out in the one film? McKeesport finest on the job. Lol  As a matter of fact, I roomed with a chap whose dad that was the Chief of Police for McKeesport while we were attending university.  The chap's name was Dennis Hurkla or something like that.  This was in the mid to late 60's.

     I see that you are pitting and taking off on the infield dirt.  This is bad for your equipment.  Move out to the grass in the outfield.  Your engine will thank you!

                                                                                             
                                                                                                   Best of luck,

                                                                                                   Frank McCune


Well actually it's Port Vue, overlooking down on McKeesport. You would probably get shot flying in McKeesport now ;)
I'd have to bring a lawn mower to take off in the grass or cardboard. Besides I like dirt flying in my eyes n~
Eveytime I fly down there the police drive by, they probably patrol the playground an basketball courts.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #82 on: May 31, 2016, 08:25:56 AM »
Liner,

Thank you for that weight. Looks like the OS LA 46 can pull 55oz around quite easily in the pattern.

I'm thinking my OS 30S may pull the ARF Nobler I have? I don't know what an ARF Nobler weighs assembled?

Where did you get all those models? looks like a nice collection.

Charles

I don't know what the ARF weighs I haven't built mine, an everthing I build seems heavy. I built them all in the 90's. Except the Nobler I bought that on Craigslist.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #83 on: May 31, 2016, 09:07:27 AM »
Hey when I fly off ball diamonds I use the dirt area for take off.  The ARF Nobler I fly once in a while has an EVO .36 which I had to add an ounce of lead to the tail so it would turn is in access of 50 ounces and flies great on .015 X 60 cable.  Tank isn't big enough for the pattern, but I'm still breaking the engine in.

By the way some guys not notice the little grass chips from the prop on take off? LL~ LL~
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2016, 04:13:52 PM »
Well I gave the Nobler a shot at Classic Stunt in the Beginners Circle at Brodak's Fly-in. It was a fun time. All I could muster was 2nd place fellas!

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #85 on: June 16, 2016, 08:31:52 AM »
Hey second place says you at least tried and was there.  I wish I could be there with you guys/gals.   Congrats on the placing.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #86 on: June 16, 2016, 10:19:30 AM »
Hey second place says you at least tried and was there.  I wish I could be there with you guys/gals.   Congrats on the placing.

Thanks Doc! I guess it's not bad considering I didn't even know the patten back in April. This year was the first time I tried a square loop an got away from the lazy eight too. I got 2nd on Monday in profile out of 12 people. But I look around at the other classes an say to myself how are they doing everything so consistent an perfect, even intermediate looked like those guys were really good!

I know! I need bigger an better planes! #^
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2016, 10:21:19 AM »
Hey second place says you at least tried and was there.  I wish I could be there with you guys/gals.   Congrats on the placing.

Around here, second place in Beginner means that at least two beginners showed up -- woo hoo!
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2016, 10:33:02 AM »
Around here, second place in Beginner means that at least two beginners showed up -- woo hoo!
So far 12 on Monday an 6 on Tuesday. Will see how many tomorrow, I'm guessing there will be a lot.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2016, 10:38:10 AM »
So far 12 on Monday an 6 on Tuesday. Will see how many tomorrow, I'm guessing there will be a lot.

Second out of twelve is pretty good.  When I was flying Beginner there were usually three or four entrants, which meant that you could show up, put in an embarrassingly lousy flight -- and get a trophy!  Oh boy!  It did encourage me to move up to Intermediate quickly, so that if I made a pile of flinders on the first flight I didn't get a trophy to rub things in.

So congrats, and keep at it!
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2016, 11:46:07 AM »
Second out of twelve is pretty good.  When I was flying Beginner there were usually three or four entrants, which meant that you could show up, put in an embarrassingly lousy flight -- and get a trophy!  Oh boy!  It did encourage me to move up to Intermediate quickly, so that if I made a pile of flinders on the first flight I didn't get a trophy to rub things in.

So congrats, and keep at it!
Thanks Tim! How do you advance from intermediate? Do you have to win?

I noticed a few things at the Fly-in, everyone had pretty airplanes an I had the most beat up airplanes there LL~ I saw a lot with trim tabs too.

On Monday my second flight was a total loss, I couldn't feel the wind but where I was stunting wasn't working out.  I didn't know you could change directions of the stunts by pointing.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2016, 12:03:06 PM »
Thanks Tim! How do you advance from intermediate? Do you have to win?

I noticed a few things at the Fly-in, everyone had pretty airplanes an I had the most beat up airplanes there LL~ I saw a lot with trim tabs too.

On Monday my second flight was a total loss, I couldn't feel the wind but where I was stunting wasn't working out.  I didn't know you could change directions of the stunts by pointing.

Read the rules.  Always read the rules.  Per the skill class rules you advance yourself -- you advance by entering some higher skill class.  So there's nothing in the rules to prevent you from entering Expert in your next contest.

However, per the skill class rules you cannot drop back by yourself -- to drop back a class or two you have to petition the contest organizers.  So if you're consistently losing in Expert and you decide you want some hardware in Advanced you can't just drop back and get a nice trophy -- you have to ask nicely, and if the contest organizers think you belong in Expert, that's what you get to fly in.

So there's no hard and fast rule, but many people have their own guidelines.  My guidelines for myself were:

  • Move from Beginner when you can fly the whole pattern, or if you've been able to fly inverted and square maneuvers for a whole contest season
  • Move from Intermediate to Advanced when you've broken 400 points two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Intermediate
  • Move from Advanced to Expert when you've broken 500 points for two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Advanced (and kiss your last trophy -- you won't be earning more any time soon)
  • Once you've moved to Expert, to keep from being discouraged, consider yourself to be an "under-Expert", and don't sweat the fact that -- at best -- it'll be years before you beat the top guys

This won't maximize your trophies, but if you've got your sights set on advancing through the ranks as fast as you can, it'll encourage you to get good as fast as you can.  Basically, the cohort that you're in will pull you along with them.  If you're almost as good as average, they'll pull you up.  If you're placing all the time, then you've probably squeezed as much out of that class as you can -- unless you're in Expert, in which case the other top guys will likely spend their practice time helping you get better, and then their competition time trying to beat you into the ground.

Don't worry about having a beat-up airplane -- the air don't care.  If you're going to enter Open at the Nats, or fly in Advanced or Expert where they do appearance points -- care.

Learning where the wind is coming from is an essential skill.  If you look good in a buzz cut start wearing it, and visit the barbershop right before a contest to enhance your sensitivity.  Making sure to wear a low-collar shirt (or a T-shirt without a collar) helps.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #92 on: June 16, 2016, 01:23:57 PM »
Read the rules.  Always read the rules.  Per the skill class rules you advance yourself -- you advance by entering some higher skill class.  So there's nothing in the rules to prevent you from entering Expert in your next contest.

However, per the skill class rules you cannot drop back by yourself -- to drop back a class or two you have to petition the contest organizers.  So if you're consistently losing in Expert and you decide you want some hardware in Advanced you can't just drop back and get a nice trophy -- you have to ask nicely, and if the contest organizers think you belong in Expert, that's what you get to fly in.

So there's no hard and fast rule, but many people have their own guidelines.  My guidelines for myself were:

  • Move from Beginner when you can fly the whole pattern, or if you've been able to fly inverted and square maneuvers for a whole contest season
  • Move from Intermediate to Advanced when you've broken 400 points two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Intermediate
  • Move from Advanced to Expert when you've broken 500 points for two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Advanced (and kiss your last trophy -- you won't be earning more any time soon)
  • Once you've moved to Expert, to keep from being discouraged, consider yourself to be an "under-Expert", and don't sweat the fact that -- at best -- it'll be years before you beat the top guys

This won't maximize your trophies, but if you've got your sights set on advancing through the ranks as fast as you can, it'll encourage you to get good as fast as you can.  Basically, the cohort that you're in will pull you along with them.  If you're almost as good as average, they'll pull you up.  If you're placing all the time, then you've probably squeezed as much out of that class as you can -- unless you're in Expert, in which case the other top guys will likely spend their practice time helping you get better, and then their competition time trying to beat you into the ground.

Don't worry about having a beat-up airplane -- the air don't care.  If you're going to enter Open at the Nats, or fly in Advanced or Expert where they do appearance points -- care.

Learning where the wind is coming from is an essential skill.  If you look good in a buzz cut start wearing it, and visit the barbershop right before a contest to enhance your sensitivity.  Making sure to wear a low-collar shirt (or a T-shirt without a collar) helps.
Good advice!  Ha ha I guess I should of read the rules huh! n~
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #93 on: June 16, 2016, 02:22:49 PM »
Read the rules.  Always read the rules.  Per the skill class rules you advance yourself -- you advance by entering some higher skill class.  So there's nothing in the rules to prevent you from entering Expert in your next contest.

However, per the skill class rules you cannot drop back by yourself -- to drop back a class or two you have to petition the contest organizers.  So if you're consistently losing in Expert and you decide you want some hardware in Advanced you can't just drop back and get a nice trophy -- you have to ask nicely, and if the contest organizers think you belong in Expert, that's what you get to fly in.

So there's no hard and fast rule, but many people have their own guidelines.  My guidelines for myself were:

  • Move from Beginner when you can fly the whole pattern, or if you've been able to fly inverted and square maneuvers for a whole contest season
  • Move from Intermediate to Advanced when you've broken 400 points two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Intermediate
  • Move from Advanced to Expert when you've broken 500 points for two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Advanced (and kiss your last trophy -- you won't be earning more any time soon)
  • Once you've moved to Expert, to keep from being discouraged, consider yourself to be an "under-Expert", and don't sweat the fact that -- at best -- it'll be years before you beat the top guys

This won't maximize your trophies, but if you've got your sights set on advancing through the ranks as fast as you can, it'll encourage you to get good as fast as you can.  Basically, the cohort that you're in will pull you along with them.  If you're almost as good as average, they'll pull you up.  If you're placing all the time, then you've probably squeezed as much out of that class as you can -- unless you're in Expert, in which case the other top guys will likely spend their practice time helping you get better, and then their competition time trying to beat you into the ground.

Don't worry about having a beat-up airplane -- the air don't care.  If you're going to enter Open at the Nats, or fly in Advanced or Expert where they do appearance points -- care.

Learning where the wind is coming from is an essential skill.  If you look good in a buzz cut start wearing it, and visit the barbershop right before a contest to enhance your sensitivity.  Making sure to wear a low-collar shirt (or a T-shirt without a collar) helps.
Where do I find the rules?
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #94 on: June 16, 2016, 03:05:21 PM »
Where do I find the rules?

On the AMA website.  Go to AMA home, click the "Competition & Events" tag, then click "Competition rules".  Or just click the link I gave you.

You want the General Competition Rules that applies to anything, the CL General Rules that applies to all CL, and finally Control Line Precision Aerobatics rules.  Yes, it's a lot of stuff to wade through -- but it'll make a lot of things clear.

If you just cannot stand going through the rules then you can ask here.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2016, 01:53:49 PM »
I think that when they're asymmetrical it's usually the inboard wing that's longer -- the idea is to equalize the lift when the inboard wing is moving a tad slower.  (Well, one of the ideas -- there's a lot of theories floating around, and a lot of different ways to skin the cat.)
The ARF Nobler is the same way, inboard wing is a inch longer.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2016, 08:23:11 PM »
As Tim says,  get the rules and read them.  Not once but several times.   Makes for good reading when the mate is not in the mood and you can't go to sleep.  I've lost count how many Times I've read them and still see something I missed. H^^
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Offline Carl Cisneros

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Re: Nobler Fix
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2016, 11:36:43 PM »
I flew against Chris on Monday at Brodaks, and man, he was the one I was constantly watching out for...................

Good to hear that I can still fly beginner as I can not fly inverted yet and naturally do not know the full
pattern.

Chris, I have 2 more contests to fly beginner at, the Eastern Shore one I told you about on 12 -14 Aug and our contest in Sept.

The rest of the year I will be practicing flying inverted with an old ringmaster with a Fox on the front. (already stuffed it in the ground once inverted. LOL)

Watching Chris fly at Brodaks, he will do great in Intermediate when he moves up to it.  H^^ H^^

Carl



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